Nitrate Reduction - Powerful Greenhouse Gas Emission AND Alkalinity

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08-05-2022 05:07
Swan★★★★★ (5808)	Into the Night wrote: Swan wrote: Into the Night wrote: sealover wrote: Rethinking Wastewater Treatment to Generate Alkalinity. Buzzword fallacy. sealover wrote: Wastewater treatment requires, at some point, removing nitrate before effluent can be discharged. No, it doesn't. Nitrate is not a chemical. sealover wrote: The bacteria employed are typically denitrifiers (2 species for 2 steps) or annamox bacteria. Annamox can be used when both nitrate and ammonium are present. The two are combined to make nitrogen gas released from the water to the atmosphere. No such chemicals. Ammonium nitrate is not nitrogen gas. sealover wrote: Denitrifiers are used when all the ammonium is oxidized to nitrate. One species reduces nitrate to nitrate, using organic carbon oxidation as energy source. The second species reduces nitrite to nitrogen gas released from the water to the atmosphere. No such chemicals. sealover wrote: What if we rethink it a bit and exploit wastewater treatment as a source of alkalinity for the sea AND a source of useful nitrogen fertilizer? Buzzword fallacy. sealover wrote: Another kind of nitrate reducing bacteria perform dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium (DNRA), using organic carbon oxidation as energy source. Carbon isn't organic. No such chemicals as nitrate or ammonium. sealover wrote: The alkalinity they generate could go to the sea in the treated effluent. Buzzword fallacy. sealover wrote: The ammonium could be captured by ion exchange or other means to use as fertilizer, rather than lost to the atmosphere as nitrogen gas. No such chemical as ammonium. The chemical formula for ammonium is NH4, and please sniff some Ammonium is derived from ammonia by combination with a hydrogen ion and known in compounds (such as salts) that resemble in properties the compounds of the alkali metals. Not a chemical. NH4 is most certainly a chemical as it's chemical formula demonstrates
08-05-2022 05:38
Into the Night★★★★★ (22456)	Swan wrote: Into the Night wrote: Swan wrote: Into the Night wrote: sealover wrote: Rethinking Wastewater Treatment to Generate Alkalinity. Buzzword fallacy. sealover wrote: Wastewater treatment requires, at some point, removing nitrate before effluent can be discharged. No, it doesn't. Nitrate is not a chemical. sealover wrote: The bacteria employed are typically denitrifiers (2 species for 2 steps) or annamox bacteria. Annamox can be used when both nitrate and ammonium are present. The two are combined to make nitrogen gas released from the water to the atmosphere. No such chemicals. Ammonium nitrate is not nitrogen gas. sealover wrote: Denitrifiers are used when all the ammonium is oxidized to nitrate. One species reduces nitrate to nitrate, using organic carbon oxidation as energy source. The second species reduces nitrite to nitrogen gas released from the water to the atmosphere. No such chemicals. sealover wrote: What if we rethink it a bit and exploit wastewater treatment as a source of alkalinity for the sea AND a source of useful nitrogen fertilizer? Buzzword fallacy. sealover wrote: Another kind of nitrate reducing bacteria perform dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium (DNRA), using organic carbon oxidation as energy source. Carbon isn't organic. No such chemicals as nitrate or ammonium. sealover wrote: The alkalinity they generate could go to the sea in the treated effluent. Buzzword fallacy. sealover wrote: The ammonium could be captured by ion exchange or other means to use as fertilizer, rather than lost to the atmosphere as nitrogen gas. No such chemical as ammonium. The chemical formula for ammonium is NH4, and please sniff some Ammonium is derived from ammonia by combination with a hydrogen ion and known in compounds (such as salts) that resemble in properties the compounds of the alkali metals. Not a chemical. NH4 is most certainly a chemical as it's chemical formula demonstrates Not a chemical. The Parrot Killer Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
08-05-2022 05:46
IBdaMann★★★★★ (14841)	Swan wrote:Is this really a worthwhile use of your talents? To ask you a question? I noticed that asking you if an alligator is amphibious makes you go apoplectic, so I figure asking you what definition of "chemical" you are using might just make you explode all over your computer screen ... so I had to try. Swan wrote:Do you do everything that you are told I certainly do everything you tell me to do. What definition of "chemical" am I to use? Swan wrote:Is this getting you to your goals? You didn't explode, did you? ... so, I guess not. Swan wrote:PS I use the same chemical formulas as all PHD chemist, what definition do you use? So we're right back to your lack of English comprehension. You just answered a question about chemistry formulas that was not asked, and have not answered the question that was asked about your definition of "chemical." I'm beginning to appreciate the difficulties you face on a daily basis. You appear to be coping quite well, I'll have you know. .
08-05-2022 15:13
Swan★★★★★ (5808)	Into the Night wrote: Swan wrote: Into the Night wrote: Swan wrote: Into the Night wrote: sealover wrote: Rethinking Wastewater Treatment to Generate Alkalinity. Buzzword fallacy. sealover wrote: Wastewater treatment requires, at some point, removing nitrate before effluent can be discharged. No, it doesn't. Nitrate is not a chemical. sealover wrote: The bacteria employed are typically denitrifiers (2 species for 2 steps) or annamox bacteria. Annamox can be used when both nitrate and ammonium are present. The two are combined to make nitrogen gas released from the water to the atmosphere. No such chemicals. Ammonium nitrate is not nitrogen gas. sealover wrote: Denitrifiers are used when all the ammonium is oxidized to nitrate. One species reduces nitrate to nitrate, using organic carbon oxidation as energy source. The second species reduces nitrite to nitrogen gas released from the water to the atmosphere. No such chemicals. sealover wrote: What if we rethink it a bit and exploit wastewater treatment as a source of alkalinity for the sea AND a source of useful nitrogen fertilizer? Buzzword fallacy. sealover wrote: Another kind of nitrate reducing bacteria perform dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium (DNRA), using organic carbon oxidation as energy source. Carbon isn't organic. No such chemicals as nitrate or ammonium. sealover wrote: The alkalinity they generate could go to the sea in the treated effluent. Buzzword fallacy. sealover wrote: The ammonium could be captured by ion exchange or other means to use as fertilizer, rather than lost to the atmosphere as nitrogen gas. No such chemical as ammonium. The chemical formula for ammonium is NH4, and please sniff some Ammonium is derived from ammonia by combination with a hydrogen ion and known in compounds (such as salts) that resemble in properties the compounds of the alkali metals. Not a chemical. NH4 is most certainly a chemical as it's chemical formula demonstrates Not a chemical. LOL can you explain in detail why NH4 is not a chemical? Nope all you can do is what they tell you to do
08-05-2022 20:51
Into the Night★★★★★ (22456)	Swan wrote: Into the Night wrote: Swan wrote: Into the Night wrote: Swan wrote: Into the Night wrote: sealover wrote: Rethinking Wastewater Treatment to Generate Alkalinity. Buzzword fallacy. sealover wrote: Wastewater treatment requires, at some point, removing nitrate before effluent can be discharged. No, it doesn't. Nitrate is not a chemical. sealover wrote: The bacteria employed are typically denitrifiers (2 species for 2 steps) or annamox bacteria. Annamox can be used when both nitrate and ammonium are present. The two are combined to make nitrogen gas released from the water to the atmosphere. No such chemicals. Ammonium nitrate is not nitrogen gas. sealover wrote: Denitrifiers are used when all the ammonium is oxidized to nitrate. One species reduces nitrate to nitrate, using organic carbon oxidation as energy source. The second species reduces nitrite to nitrogen gas released from the water to the atmosphere. No such chemicals. sealover wrote: What if we rethink it a bit and exploit wastewater treatment as a source of alkalinity for the sea AND a source of useful nitrogen fertilizer? Buzzword fallacy. sealover wrote: Another kind of nitrate reducing bacteria perform dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium (DNRA), using organic carbon oxidation as energy source. Carbon isn't organic. No such chemicals as nitrate or ammonium. sealover wrote: The alkalinity they generate could go to the sea in the treated effluent. Buzzword fallacy. sealover wrote: The ammonium could be captured by ion exchange or other means to use as fertilizer, rather than lost to the atmosphere as nitrogen gas. No such chemical as ammonium. The chemical formula for ammonium is NH4, and please sniff some Ammonium is derived from ammonia by combination with a hydrogen ion and known in compounds (such as salts) that resemble in properties the compounds of the alkali metals. Not a chemical. NH4 is most certainly a chemical as it's chemical formula demonstrates Not a chemical. LOL can you explain in detail why NH4 is not a chemical? Can you explain why NH4 is a chemical? Is it a powder? A liquid? What color is it? How much does it cost per pound? Do you have to strip mine it? Swan wrote: Nope all you can do is what they tell you to do Who are 'they'??? You are hallucinating again. The Parrot Killer Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
RE: Nitrate, sulfate, iron, and manganese reduction = ALKALINITY10-05-2022 22:42
Im a BM ★★★★☆ (1120)	sealover wrote: Nitrate reduction by bacteria under low oxygen conditions generates alkalinity and it generates nitrous oxide, a powerful greenhouse gas. Denitrification and dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium are the two major pathways of microbiological nitrate reduction. Both pathways use nitrate as oxidant to get energy from oxidation of organic carbon. Both pathways generate alkalinity, rather than carbon dioxide, as the oxidized inorganic carbon product. Both pathways generate nitrous oxide as a by product. Denitrification transforms nitrate-nitrogen into nitrogen gas. For better or worse, that nitrogen leaves the system. Dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium transforms the highly mobile and easily leached nitrate-nitrogen into ammonium, which can be adsorbed to cation exchange sites and held in place against leaching. Furthermore, ammonium cannot be lost from the system by denitrification. Nitrate, sulfate, iron, and manganese reduction = ALKALINITY Under low oxygen conditions, bacteria can use nitrate, sulfate, ferric iron or iron(III), or manganese(IV) as oxidants to derive energy from the oxidation of organic carbon. Aerobic respiration, where oxygen is used to oxidize organic carbon, produced carbon dioxide (CO2) as the oxidized carbon product. The low oxygen metabolic pathways using nitrate, sulfate, iron(III), or manganese (IV) all generate ALKALINITY (as bicarbonate or carbonate anions) as the oxidized carbon product. It's a bit more complex with Fe(III) or Mn(IV). They are not oxyanions like nitrate and sulfate, so there is no anion charge directly transferred along with the oxygen that is combined with the organic carbon. Ferric iron or Fe(III) is only slightly soluble at near neutral pH. It is not bioavailable. Ferrous iron or Fe(II) is much more soluble at near neutral pH. It is bioavailable. Manganese(IV) is only slightly soluble at near neutral pH. Manganese(II) is much more soluble at near neutral pH. Organisms require small amounts of manganese as a nutrient element. In the low oxygen underlying sediments of wetlands, manganese(IV) reduction by microorganisms can generate concentrations of manganese(II) in groundwater that are so high it can be a manganese toxicity hazard to humans. Fortunately, nobody in their right mind uses wetland groundwater as a source of drinking water. With the tragic exception of South Asia and Southeast Asia where over a hundred thousand shallow tube wells were installed, beginning in the 1970s. Arsenic, as arsenite anion, is more toxic than manganese(II) at ANY concentration in drinking water. Arsenate is another oxyanion that some bacteria can use as oxidant for organic carbon under low oxygen conditions. That long list of oxyanions includes many others besides nitrate and sulfate - molybdate, selenate, phosphate, borate... ALL of these low oxygen metabolic pathways for oxidation of organic carbon generate ALKALINITY (as bicarbonate or carbonate) rather than carbon dioxide.
11-05-2022 06:26
Into the Night★★★★★ (22456)	Im a BM wrote: Nitrate, sulfate, iron, and manganese reduction = ALKALINITY Buzzword fallacy. Im a BM wrote: Under low oxygen conditions, bacteria can use nitrate, sulfate, ferric iron or iron(III), or manganese(IV) as oxidants to derive energy from the oxidation of organic carbon. No such chemical as 'nitrate', 'sulfate', 'ferric iron', or 'iron(III), or 'manganese(IV). Carbon isn't organic. Im a BM wrote: Aerobic respiration, where oxygen is used to oxidize organic carbon, produced carbon dioxide (CO2) as the oxidized carbon product. Carbon isn't organic, Neither is carbon dioxide. Im a BM wrote: The low oxygen metabolic pathways using nitrate, sulfate, iron(III), or manganese (IV) all generate ALKALINITY (as bicarbonate or carbonate anions) as the oxidized carbon product. Buzzword fallacies. Gibber-babble. Im a BM wrote: It's a bit more complex with Fe(III) or Mn(IV). They are not oxyanions like nitrate and sulfate, so there is no anion charge directly transferred along with the oxygen that is combined with the organic carbon. No such chemicals. Carbon isn't organic. Im a BM wrote: Ferric iron or Fe(III) is only slightly soluble at near neutral pH. It is not bioavailable. No such chemical. Im a BM wrote: Ferrous iron or Fe(II) is much more soluble at near neutral pH. It is bioavailable. No such chemical. Im a BM wrote: Manganese(IV) is only slightly soluble at near neutral pH. Manganese(II) is much more soluble at near neutral pH. No such chemical. Im a BM wrote: Organisms require small amounts of manganese as a nutrient element. So? Im a BM wrote: In the low oxygen underlying sediments of wetlands, manganese(IV) reduction by microorganisms can generate concentrations of manganese(II) in groundwater that are so high it can be a manganese toxicity hazard to humans. So? Im a BM wrote: Fortunately, nobody in their right mind uses wetland groundwater as a source of drinking water. Compositional error fallacy, and a lie. Im a BM wrote: With the tragic exception of South Asia and Southeast Asia where over a hundred thousand shallow tube wells were installed, beginning in the 1970s. Shallow wells are not necessarily toxic. Compositional error fallacy. Im a BM wrote: Arsenic, as arsenite anion, is more toxic than manganese(II) at ANY concentration in drinking water. There is no such chemical as 'arsenite anion' or manganese(II). Im a BM wrote: Arsenate is another oxyanion that some bacteria can use as oxidant for organic carbon under low oxygen conditions. That long list of oxyanions includes many others besides nitrate and sulfate - molybdate, selenate, phosphate, borate... No such chemicals. Im a BM wrote: ALL of these low oxygen metabolic pathways for oxidation of organic carbon generate ALKALINITY (as bicarbonate or carbonate) rather than carbon dioxide. Carbon isn't organic. Buzzword fallacy. More random gibber babble from you. Trying to sound smart just makes you look dumber. The Parrot Killer Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan Edited on 11-05-2022 06:26
RE: Pyrite formation - TWO sources of alkalinity12-05-2022 00:30
Im a BM ★★★★☆ (1120)	Pyrite formation - TWO sources of alkalinity. During pyrite formation, ferric iron (oxy)hydroxides are reduced to ferrous iron disulfide. And sulfate is reduced by different bacteria to create the sulfide. The extra oxygen removed from the (oxy)hydroxides ends up as the oxygen in the acid neutralizing oxyanions bicarbonate and carbonate. "Pyrite burial", which leaves behind big pieces of the stuff in low oxygen sediments, is the single greatest source of alkalinity in submarine groundwater discharge. Pyrite oxidation, when two different kinds of bacteria use oxygen to turn it into sulfuric acid and ferric iron, is the single greatest source of acid when wetlands are drained or mountainsides are torn open to expose pyrite to oxygen. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nitrate reduction by bacteria under low oxygen conditions generates alkalinity and it generates nitrous oxide, a powerful greenhouse gas. Denitrification and dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium are the two major pathways of microbiological nitrate reduction. Both pathways use nitrate as oxidant to get energy from oxidation of organic carbon. Both pathways generate alkalinity, rather than carbon dioxide, as the oxidized inorganic carbon product. Both pathways generate nitrous oxide as a by product. Denitrification transforms nitrate-nitrogen into nitrogen gas. For better or worse, that nitrogen leaves the system. Dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium transforms the highly mobile and easily leached nitrate-nitrogen into ammonium, which can be adsorbed to cation exchange sites and held in place against leaching. Furthermore, ammonium cannot be lost from the system by denitrification.[/quote] Nitrate, sulfate, iron, and manganese reduction = ALKALINITY Under low oxygen conditions, bacteria can use nitrate, sulfate, ferric iron or iron(III), or manganese(IV) as oxidants to derive energy from the oxidation of organic carbon. Aerobic respiration, where oxygen is used to oxidize organic carbon, produced carbon dioxide (CO2) as the oxidized carbon product. The low oxygen metabolic pathways using nitrate, sulfate, iron(III), or manganese (IV) all generate ALKALINITY (as bicarbonate or carbonate anions) as the oxidized carbon product. It's a bit more complex with Fe(III) or Mn(IV). They are not oxyanions like nitrate and sulfate, so there is no anion charge directly transferred along with the oxygen that is combined with the organic carbon. Ferric iron or Fe(III) is only slightly soluble at near neutral pH. It is not bioavailable. Ferrous iron or Fe(II) is much more soluble at near neutral pH. It is bioavailable. Manganese(IV) is only slightly soluble at near neutral pH. Manganese(II) is much more soluble at near neutral pH. Organisms require small amounts of manganese as a nutrient element. In the low oxygen underlying sediments of wetlands, manganese(IV) reduction by microorganisms can generate concentrations of manganese(II) in groundwater that are so high it can be a manganese toxicity hazard to humans. Fortunately, nobody in their right mind uses wetland groundwater as a source of drinking water. With the tragic exception of South Asia and Southeast Asia where over a hundred thousand shallow tube wells were installed, beginning in the 1970s. Arsenic, as arsenite anion, is more toxic than manganese(II) at ANY concentration in drinking water. Arsenate is another oxyanion that some bacteria can use as oxidant for organic carbon under low oxygen conditions. That long list of oxyanions includes many others besides nitrate and sulfate - molybdate, selenate, phosphate, borate... ALL of these low oxygen metabolic pathways for oxidation of organic carbon generate ALKALINITY (as bicarbonate or carbonate) rather than carbon dioxide.[/quote]
12-05-2022 03:11
Into the Night★★★★★ (22456)	Im a BM wrote: Pyrite formation - TWO sources of alkalinity. ...deleted excess spam... You already used this gibber-babble. Spamming. The Parrot Killer Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
05-06-2023 10:49
Im a BM ★★★★☆ (1120)	[quote]sealover wrote: Nitrate reduction by bacteria under low oxygen conditions generates alkalinity and it generates nitrous oxide, a powerful greenhouse gas. Denitrification and dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium are the two major pathways of microbiological nitrate reduction. Both pathways use nitrate as oxidant to get energy from oxidation of organic carbon. Both pathways generate alkalinity, rather than carbon dioxide, as the oxidized inorganic carbon product. Both pathways generate nitrous oxide as a by product. Denitrification transforms nitrate-nitrogen into nitrogen gas. For better or worse, that nitrogen leaves the system. Dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium transforms the highly mobile and easily leached nitrate-nitrogen into ammonium, which can be adsorbed to cation exchange sites and held in place against leaching. Furthermore, ammonium cannot be lost from the system by denitrification
05-06-2023 10:50
Im a BM ★★★★☆ (1120)	[quote]sealover wrote: ----------------------------------------------------------------- Defining some terms The term "greenhouse gas" came from the term "greenhouse effect". Remember the movie "Soylet Green"? In the opening scene it is mentioned in the dialog how "greenhouse effect" had created such conditions of climate change. To the point that humanity had unknowingly already resorted to cannibalism! A "greenhouse" allows visible light in, but not much infrared. It doesn't let much infrared escape either. Much of the visible light entering the greenhouse is transformed into heat when it is absorbed by a surface of low albedo. The heat in the form of infrared radiation does not escape the greenhouse. It is much warmer in the greenhouse than it is outside. How alkalinity generated? Well, let's start by defining alkalinity itself. Alkalinity is acid neutralizing capacity. The alkalinity generated by nitrate reduction is anionic inorganic carbon. When organic carbon is oxidized by microrganisms, it is transformed into carbon dioxide or into inorganic carbon anions, depending on the oxidant. When nitrate, like with sulfate, is used as oxidant, their anionic charge cannot simply disappear. The oxidized carbon product becomes an anion. Oxygen has no anionic charge to transfer to organic carbon during oxidation. Carbon dioxide is not an anion
05-06-2023 10:51
Im a BM ★★★★☆ (1120)	sealover wrote: [quote]Into the Night wrote: You cannot generate alkalinity. You cannot reduce a nitrate. It's already reduced. Whether by denitrification to nitrogen gas, or dissimilatory reduction to ammonium, nitrate reduction by bacteria is an acid neutralizing process. It generates alkalinity in much the same way that sulfate reduction by bacteria generates alkalinity. The difference is in anion charge. Nitrate is a monovalent oxyanion. It has one negative charge to transfer along with its oxygen to the organic carbon. It can generate one mole of inorganic carbon anion charge when it is reduced. One mole of alkalinity Sulfate is a divalent oxyanion. It has two negative charges (electrons) to transfer along with its oxygen to the organic carbon. It can generate two moles of inorganic carbon anion charge when it is reduced. Two moles of alkalinity.
05-06-2023 10:54
Im a BM ★★★★☆ (1120)	sealover wrote: Into the Night wrote: [quote]sealover wrote: Nitrate reduction by bacteria under low oxygen conditions generates alkalinity and it generates nitrous oxide, a powerful greenhouse gas. ...deleted remaining gibber-babble... You cannot reduce a nitrate. It's already reduced. You cannot generate alkalinity. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Actually, you can reduce a nitrate. With explosive consequences even. Saltpeter used in the old school gun powder contained potassium nitrate. The nitrate is a powerful oxidant. The elemental sulfur they used in the old school gun powder is a reductant. Bring the two together with a spark and bang. The elemental sulfur was oxidized to SOx. The nitrate was reduced to NOx. Or when ammonium is used as reductant and nitrate as oxidant. BOOM! You cannot reduce a nitrate? Too bad you didn't put that rule in place before it took out the port of Beirut. But when bacteria use nitrate as oxidant, it's less explosive. Oxygen contained in the nitrate molecule is attached to organic carbon during nitrate reduction. With oxygen attached, the carbon officially becomes inorganic. Nitrate is a negatively charged ion. During nitrate reduction, that negative charge is passed along with the oxygen onto the organic carbon. The inorganic carbon generated by aerobic oxidation of organic carbon is CO2. The inorganic carbon generated by nitrate reduction is anionic (carbonate or bicarbonate) This is alkalinity.
05-06-2023 10:56
Im a BM ★★★★☆ (1120)	sealover wrote: Black Powder - Two kinds of reductants To clarify the reaction between S zero (yellow, elemental sulfur) and nitrate I did not include the fact that black carbon was also a reductant. I also didn't clarify what all the NOxs or SOxs were. I would have had to show too many reactions and two many products. I just wanted to make the point that nitrate is a powerful oxidant. Second only two oxygen as the one most coveted by microorganisms to get the most energy from oxidizing organic C. So, nitrate provide all the oxidant. All the oxygen that might attach to carbon or sulfur. Sulfur and carbon are the two reductants. Sulfur is the far stronger reductant. Partial list of products - carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide, sulfur trioxide, nitric oxide, nitrous oxide, nitrogen gas. I was trying to keep it simple and I neglected to bring the black part of the black powder. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [quote]sealover wrote: Saltpeter used in the old school gun powder contained potassium nitrate. Potassium nitrate isn't black powder. sealover wrote: The nitrate is a powerful oxidant. Maybe, maybe not. sealover wrote: The elemental sulfur they used in the old school gun powder is a reductant. There is no such thing as 'old school' gun powder. Black powder still has the same recipe as always. I make it myself regularly. sealover wrote: Bring the two together with a spark and bang. The elemental sulfur was oxidized to SOx. The nitrate was reduced to NOx. Not black powder. Apparently you don't know how to make that either. Leave such things to someone that knows how to do it, like me. You are going to hurt yourself. sealover wrote: Or when ammonium is used as reductant and nitrate as oxidant. BOOM! Nope. Not explosive at all. sealover wrote: You cannot reduce a nitrate? Nope. It's already reduced. sealover wrote: Too bad you didn't put that rule in place before it took out the port of Beirut. It didn't. sealover wrote: But when bacteria use nitrate as oxidant, it's less explosive. Oxidizer, the correct term is oxidizer. sealover wrote: Oxygen contained in the nitrate molecule is attached to organic carbon during nitrate reduction. Carbon isn't organic. sealover wrote: With oxygen attached, the carbon officially becomes inorganic. It never was. sealover wrote: Nitrate is a negatively charged ion. During nitrate reduction, that negative charge is passed along with the oxygen onto the organic carbon. There is no carbon in a nitrate. sealover wrote: The inorganic carbon generated by aerobic oxidation of organic carbon is CO2. You can't oxidize CO2. sealover wrote: The inorganic carbon generated by nitrate reduction is anionic (carbonate or bicarbonate) CO2 is not a carbonate or bicarbonate. sealover wrote: This is alkalinity. Carbon is not an alkaline
05-06-2023 10:59
Im a BM ★★★★☆ (1120)	sealover wrote: So, lignin and tannin are two very important components of plants. Neither is a "carbohydrate" by any definition. But what is their "definition"? Well, their measurement is operationally defined. It's hard to measure tannin. Tannin is polyphenol. Phenolics have chemical reducing power. "Total phenolic content" is operationally defined by how much ferric iron the tannins can reduce to ferrous iron. In my favorite old school measure, "Prussian Blue", when the phenolic groups reduce ferric iron to ferrous iron, they form a deep blue ferricyanide product. This can be measured spectrophotometrically at 720 nm. The absorbance is directly proportional to ferricyanide concentration. That absorbance would then be translated to "tannic acid equivalents" using a purified tannic acid standard. Prussian Blue doesn't actually measure tannin. It is the operationally defined measure of iron-reducing power, regardless of what the reductant is. Alkalinity is operationally defined as acid neutralizing capacity, regardless of what the proton acceptors are. Any questions? I mean, anything that counts as a legitimate question? ________________________________________________________ [quote]Into the Night wrote: [quote]sealover wrote: The closest I got to a meaningful response about units for alkalinity always came back to "pH". Many many data tables have been compiled for alkalinty because it is so commonly measured in aqueous samples. They all use units to report the values for alkalinity. pH is NEVER among the units ever used as ANY measure of ALKALINITY. pH CAN tell you if something is "alkaline" (pH > 7), but that has virtually nothing to do with its measurable alkalinity. I have given you the units repeatedly and shown you how to convert them. Alkalinity. You could have Googled it to learn the units days ago. Ignoramus phallicy. Google is not God, nor is it chemistry. Void reference fallacy. Buzzword fallacy.
05-06-2023 11:06
Im a BM ★★★★☆ (1120)	[quote]sealover wrote: "Carbon isn't organic. You cannot oxidize oxygen." - Ignoramus YES YOU CAN! At least all the oxygen that isn't already oxidized, such as the oxygen in the atmosphere. Organic carbon, the compounds of which are the specialization of organic chemistry is, um... well, duh? Inorganic carbon, though? That's carbon when it has been oxidized. Inorganic carbon is carbon with oxygen attached. Carbon dioxide, bicarbonate, and carbonate. The OXYGEN in carbon dioxide is chemically reduced. The oxygen in carbon dioxide is not oxidized. The carbon in carbon dioxide is oxidized. During photosynthesis, the oxygen in the water molecule is OXIZIDED, releasing oxygen gas. In the water molecule, H2O, hydrogen is oxidized and oxygen is reduced. In the products of photosynthesis, the hydrogen is reduced and the oxygen is oxidized. Photosynthesis generates impressive voltage to yank an electron off H2O. It generates a pretty powerful oxidant gas. O2. Oxidized oxygen.
05-06-2023 11:07
Im a BM ★★★★☆ (1120)	[quote]sealover wrote: Anammox bacteria and ammonium nitrate Nitrate reducing bacteria generate nitrous oxide as a by product of nitrate reduction. Some nitrate reducing bacteria use organic carbon as reductant, and nitrate as oxidant. These include denitrifiers, which produce nitrogen gas as the primary reduced nitrogen product. They also include bacteria that perform dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonia. Other nitrate reducing bacteria use AMMONIUM as reductant, and nitrate as oxidant. These are the anammox bacteria often employed in wastewater treatment. They generate nitrogen gas as the reduced nitrogen product. And they generate nitrous oxide as a by product. Ammonium and nitrate can react in an energy releasing oxidation reduction reaction without the help of bacteria. The port of Galveston, the port of Beirut, and the Oklahoma City federal building are proof that nitrate CAN be reduced using ammonium as reductant. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [quote]sealover wrote: Nitrate reduction by bacteria under low oxygen conditions generates alkalinity and it generates nitrous oxide, a powerful greenhouse gas. Denitrification and dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium are the two major pathways of microbiological nitrate reduction. Both pathways use nitrate as oxidant to get energy from oxidation of organic carbon. Both pathways generate alkalinity, rather than carbon dioxide, as the oxidized inorganic carbon product. Both pathways generate nitrous oxide as a by product. Denitrification transforms nitrate-nitrogen into nitrogen gas. For better or worse, that nitrogen leaves the system. Dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium transforms the highly mobile and easily leached nitrate-nitrogen into ammonium, which can be adsorbed to cation exchange sites and held in place against leaching. Furthermore, ammonium cannot be lost from the system by denitrification.
05-06-2023 11:09
Im a BM ★★★★☆ (1120)	[quote]sealover wrote: Nitrate Reducing Bacteria as NOx Scavengers or Generators It has been noted that nitrate reducing bacteria of all kinds can generate nitrous oxide as a byproduct during nitrate reduction. Nitrous oxide, N2O, is just one of the NOx's that nitrate reducers can generate. Nitric oxide, NO, is another gaseous NOx byproduct of microbial nitrate reduction. However, nitrate reducing bacteria are viewed as beneficial because they also REMOVE NOxs. This is not the time for the full description, but a VERY IMPORTANT biogeochemical interaction is the manner in which nitrate reducing bacteria can scavenge for NOxs and metabolize them. There are ways to manipulate conditions so that these guys MINIMIZE their generation of nitrous oxide, nitric oxide, etc., emitted to the atmosphere and MAXIMIZE their effectiveness at REMOVING NOxs from solution. This in, in turn, ensures that these NOxs cannot be emitted to the atmosphere. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [quote]sealover wrote: Correction - Dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to AMMONIUM. It mistakenly says dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonia. Wrong. Easier to write DRNA, this process turns out to be much more important in terrestrial ecosystems than previously known. It preserves nitrogen in the ecosystem in the form of ammonium, rather than emitting it to the atmosphere as nitrogen gas. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [quote]sealover wrote: Anammox bacteria and ammonium nitrate Nitrate reducing bacteria generate nitrous oxide as a by product of nitrate reduction. Some nitrate reducing bacteria use organic carbon as reductant, and nitrate as oxidant. These include denitrifiers, which produce nitrogen gas as the primary reduced nitrogen product. They also include bacteria that perform dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonia. Other nitrate reducing bacteria use AMMONIUM as reductant, and nitrate as oxidant. These are the anammox bacteria often employed in wastewater treatment. They generate nitrogen gas as the reduced nitrogen product. And they generate nitrous oxide as a by product. Ammonium and nitrate can react in an energy releasing oxidation reduction reaction without the help of bacteria. The port of Galveston, the port of Beirut, and the Oklahoma City federal building are proof that nitrate CAN be reduced using ammonium as reductant.
05-06-2023 11:10
Im a BM ★★★★☆ (1120)	[quote]sealover wrote: Rethinking Wastewater Treatment to Generate Alkalinity. Wastewater treatment requires, at some point, removing nitrate before effluent can be discharged. The bacteria employed are typically denitrifiers (2 species for 2 steps) or annamox bacteria. Annamox can be used when both nitrate and ammonium are present. The two are combined to make nitrogen gas released from the water to the atmosphere. Denitrifiers are used when all the ammonium is oxidized to nitrate. One species reduces nitrate to nitrate, using organic carbon oxidation as energy source. The second species reduces nitrite to nitrogen gas released from the water to the atmosphere. What if we rethink it a bit and exploit wastewater treatment as a source of alkalinity for the sea AND a source of useful nitrogen fertilizer? Another kind of nitrate reducing bacteria perform dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium (DNRA), using organic carbon oxidation as energy source. The alkalinity they generate could go to the sea in the treated effluent. The ammonium could be captured by ion exchange or other means to use as fertilizer, rather than lost to the atmosphere as nitrogen gas.
05-06-2023 11:12
Im a BM ★★★★☆ (1120)	[quote]Im a BM wrote: Nitrate, sulfate, iron, and manganese reduction = ALKALINITY Under low oxygen conditions, bacteria can use nitrate, sulfate, ferric iron or iron(III), or manganese(IV) as oxidants to derive energy from the oxidation of organic carbon. Aerobic respiration, where oxygen is used to oxidize organic carbon, produced carbon dioxide (CO2) as the oxidized carbon product. The low oxygen metabolic pathways using nitrate, sulfate, iron(III), or manganese (IV) all generate ALKALINITY (as bicarbonate or carbonate anions) as the oxidized carbon product. It's a bit more complex with Fe(III) or Mn(IV). They are not oxyanions like nitrate and sulfate, so there is no anion charge directly transferred along with the oxygen that is combined with the organic carbon. Ferric iron or Fe(III) is only slightly soluble at near neutral pH. It is not bioavailable. Ferrous iron or Fe(II) is much more soluble at near neutral pH. It is bioavailable. Manganese(IV) is only slightly soluble at near neutral pH. Manganese(II) is much more soluble at near neutral pH. Organisms require small amounts of manganese as a nutrient element. In the low oxygen underlying sediments of wetlands, manganese(IV) reduction by microorganisms can generate concentrations of manganese(II) in groundwater that are so high it can be a manganese toxicity hazard to humans. Fortunately, nobody in their right mind uses wetland groundwater as a source of drinking water. With the tragic exception of South Asia and Southeast Asia where over a hundred thousand shallow tube wells were installed, beginning in the 1970s. Arsenic, as arsenite anion, is more toxic than manganese(II) at ANY concentration in drinking water. Arsenate is another oxyanion that some bacteria can use as oxidant for organic carbon under low oxygen conditions. That long list of oxyanions includes many others besides nitrate and sulfate - molybdate, selenate, phosphate, borate... ALL of these low oxygen metabolic pathways for oxidation of organic carbon generate ALKALINITY (as bicarbonate or carbonate) rather than carbon dioxide.
05-06-2023 11:15
Im a BM ★★★★☆ (1120)	[quote]Im a BM wrote: Pyrite formation - TWO sources of alkalinity. During pyrite formation, ferric iron (oxy)hydroxides are reduced to ferrous iron disulfide. And sulfate is reduced by different bacteria to create the sulfide. The extra oxygen removed from the (oxy)hydroxides ends up as the oxygen in the acid neutralizing oxyanions bicarbonate and carbonate. "Pyrite burial", which leaves behind big pieces of the stuff in low oxygen sediments, is the single greatest source of alkalinity in submarine groundwater discharge. Pyrite oxidation, when two different kinds of bacteria use oxygen to turn it into sulfuric acid and ferric iron, is the single greatest source of acid when wetlands are drained or mountainsides are torn open to expose pyrite to oxygen.
05-06-2023 11:18
Im a BM ★★★★☆ (1120)	[quote]sealover wrote: Nitrate reduction by bacteria under low oxygen conditions generates alkalinity and it generates nitrous oxide, a powerful greenhouse gas. Denitrification and dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium are the two major pathways of microbiological nitrate reduction. Both pathways use nitrate as oxidant to get energy from oxidation of organic carbon. Both pathways generate alkalinity, rather than carbon dioxide, as the oxidized inorganic carbon product. Both pathways generate nitrous oxide as a by product. Denitrification transforms nitrate-nitrogen into nitrogen gas. For better or worse, that nitrogen leaves the system. Dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium transforms the highly mobile and easily leached nitrate-nitrogen into ammonium, which can be adsorbed to cation exchange sites and held in place against leaching. Furthermore, ammonium cannot be lost from the system by denitrification.
05-06-2023 13:19
Swan★★★★★ (5808)	Im a BM wrote: [quote]sealover wrote: Nitrate reduction by bacteria under low oxygen conditions generates alkalinity and it generates nitrous oxide, a powerful greenhouse gas. Denitrification and dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium are the two major pathways of microbiological nitrate reduction. Both pathways use nitrate as oxidant to get energy from oxidation of organic carbon. Both pathways generate alkalinity, rather than carbon dioxide, as the oxidized inorganic carbon product. Both pathways generate nitrous oxide as a by product. Denitrification transforms nitrate-nitrogen into nitrogen gas. For better or worse, that nitrogen leaves the system. Dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium transforms the highly mobile and easily leached nitrate-nitrogen into ammonium, which can be adsorbed to cation exchange sites and held in place against leaching. Furthermore, ammonium cannot be lost from the system by denitrification. IBdaMann claims that Gold is a molecule, and that the last ice age never happened because I was not there to see it. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that IBdaMann is clearly not using enough LSD. According to CDC/Government info, people who were vaccinated are now DYING at a higher rate than non-vaccinated people, which exposes the covid vaccines as the poison that they are, this is now fully confirmed by the terrorist CDC This place is quieter than the FBI commenting on the chink bank account information on Hunter Xiden's laptop I LOVE TRUMP BECAUSE HE PISSES OFF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT I CAN'T STAND. ULTRA MAGA "Being unwanted, unloved, uncared for, forgotten by everybody, I think that is a much greater hunger, a much greater poverty than the person who has nothing to eat." MOTHER THERESA OF CALCUTTA So why is helping to hide the murder of an American president patriotic? It's time to dig up Joseph Mccarthey and show him TikTok, then duck. Now be honest, was I correct or was I correct? LOL Edited on 05-06-2023 13:21
RE: multiple low oxygen alkalinity generating pathways10-09-2024 07:40
Im a BM ★★★★☆ (1120)	sealover wrote: Nitrate reduction by bacteria under low oxygen conditions generates alkalinity and it generates nitrous oxide, a powerful greenhouse gas. Denitrification and dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium are the two major pathways of microbiological nitrate reduction. Both pathways use nitrate as oxidant to get energy from oxidation of organic carbon. Both pathways generate alkalinity, rather than carbon dioxide, as the oxidized inorganic carbon product. Both pathways generate nitrous oxide as a by product. Denitrification transforms nitrate-nitrogen into nitrogen gas. For better or worse, that nitrogen leaves the system. Dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium transforms the highly mobile and easily leached nitrate-nitrogen into ammonium, which can be adsorbed to cation exchange sites and held in place against leaching. Furthermore, ammonium cannot be lost from the system by denitrification. Nitrate, sulfate, iron, and manganese reduction = ALKALINITY Under low oxygen conditions, bacteria can use nitrate, sulfate, ferric iron or iron(III), or manganese(IV) as oxidants to derive energy from the oxidation of organic carbon. Aerobic respiration, where oxygen is used to oxidize organic carbon, produced carbon dioxide (CO2) as the oxidized carbon product. The low oxygen metabolic pathways using nitrate, sulfate, iron(III), or manganese (IV) all generate ALKALINITY (as bicarbonate or carbonate anions) as the oxidized carbon product. It's a bit more complex with Fe(III) or Mn(IV). They are not oxyanions like nitrate and sulfate, so there is no anion charge directly transferred along with the oxygen that is combined with the organic carbon. Ferric iron or Fe(III) is only slightly soluble at near neutral pH. It is not bioavailable. Ferrous iron or Fe(II) is much more soluble at near neutral pH. It is bioavailable. Manganese(IV) is only slightly soluble at near neutral pH. Manganese(II) is much more soluble at near neutral pH. Organisms require small amounts of manganese as a nutrient element. In the low oxygen underlying sediments of wetlands, manganese(IV) reduction by microorganisms can generate concentrations of manganese(II) in groundwater that are so high it can be a manganese toxicity hazard to humans. Fortunately, nobody in their right mind uses wetland groundwater as a source of drinking water. With the tragic exception of South Asia and Southeast Asia where over a hundred thousand shallow tube wells were installed, beginning in the 1970s. Arsenic, as arsenite anion, is more toxic than manganese(II) at ANY concentration in drinking water. Arsenate is another oxyanion that some bacteria can use as oxidant for organic carbon under low oxygen conditions. That long list of oxyanions includes many others besides nitrate and sulfate - molybdate, selenate, phosphate, borate... ALL of these low oxygen metabolic pathways for oxidation of organic carbon generate ALKALINITY (as bicarbonate or carbonate) rather than carbon dioxide.
18-09-2024 10:13
Into the Night★★★★★ (22456)	Im a BM wrote: Nitrate reduction by bacteria under low oxygen conditions generates alkalinity and it generates nitrous oxide, a powerful greenhouse gas. Nitrate is not a chemical. Alkalinity is not a chemical. No gas or vapor has the capability to warm the Earth. You are ignoring the 1st law of thermodynamics again. Im a BM wrote: Denitrification and dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium are the two major pathways of microbiological nitrate reduction. Nitrate is not a chemical. Ammonium is not a chemical. Im a BM wrote: Both pathways use nitrate as oxidant to get energy from oxidation of organic carbon. Nitrate is not a chemical. Carbon is not organic. Im a BM wrote: Both pathways generate alkalinity, rather than carbon dioxide, as the oxidized inorganic carbon product. Alkalinity is not a chemical. Carbon is not carbon dioxide. [quote]Im a BM wrote: Both pathways generate nitrous oxide as a by product. Buzzwords are not a pathway. Im a BM wrote: Denitrification transforms nitrate-nitrogen into nitrogen gas. For better or worse, that nitrogen leaves the system. Nitrate is not a chemical. Undefined 'system'. Im a BM wrote: Dissimilatory reduction of nitrate to ammonium transforms the highly mobile and easily leached nitrate-nitrogen into ammonium, which can be adsorbed to cation exchange sites and held in place against leaching. Furthermore, ammonium cannot be lost from the system by denitrification. Nitrate is not a chemical. Ammonium is not a chemical. Undefined 'system'. Im a BM wrote: Nitrate, sulfate, iron, and manganese reduction = ALKALINITY Nitrate is not a chemical. Sulfate is not a chemical. You cannot reduce manganese. Alkalinity is not a chemical. Im a BM wrote: Under low oxygen conditions, bacteria can use nitrate, sulfate, ferric iron or iron(III), or manganese(IV) as oxidants to derive energy from the oxidation of organic carbon. Nitrate is not a chemical. Sulfate is not a chemical. Iron is not oxygen. Manganese is not oxygen. Carbon is not organic. [quote]Im a BM wrote: Aerobic respiration, where oxygen is used to oxidize organic carbon, produced carbon dioxide (CO2) as the oxidized carbon product. Carbon is not organic. Carbon is not carbon dioxide. Im a BM wrote: The low oxygen metabolic pathways using nitrate, sulfate, iron(III), or manganese (IV) all generate ALKALINITY (as bicarbonate or carbonate anions) as the oxidized carbon product. Nitrate is not a chemical. Sulfate is not a chemical. Alkalinity is not a chemical. Bicarbonate is not a chemical. Carbonate is not a chemical. Carbon is not oxygen. Im a BM wrote: It's a bit more complex with Fe(III) or Mn(IV). They are not oxyanions like nitrate and sulfate, so there is no anion charge directly transferred along with the oxygen that is combined with the organic carbon. Nitrate is not a chemical. Sulfate is not a chemical. Carbon is not organic. Im a BM wrote: Ferric iron or Fe(III) is only slightly soluble at near neutral pH. It is not bioavailable. Ferrous iron or Fe(II) is much more soluble at near neutral pH. It is bioavailable. Apparently you've never heard of 'rust'. Im a BM wrote: Manganese(IV) is only slightly soluble at near neutral pH. Manganese(II) is much more soluble at near neutral pH. Apparently you've never heard of manganese dissolving rapidly in acid. Im a BM wrote: Organisms require small amounts of manganese as a nutrient element. In the low oxygen underlying sediments of wetlands, manganese(IV) reduction by microorganisms can generate concentrations of manganese(II) in groundwater that are so high it can be a manganese toxicity hazard to humans. Fortunately, nobody in their right mind uses wetland groundwater as a source of drinking water. All kinds of critters use wetland groundwater as a source of drinking water. Im a BM wrote: With the tragic exception of South Asia and Southeast Asia where over a hundred thousand shallow tube wells were installed, beginning in the 1970s. Shallow wells are most commonplace and have no problems. Im a BM wrote: Arsenic, as arsenite anion, is more toxic than manganese(II) at ANY concentration in drinking water. Arsenite is not a chemical Im a BM wrote: Arsenate is another oxyanion that some bacteria can use as oxidant for organic carbon under low oxygen conditions. That long list of oxyanions includes many others besides nitrate and sulfate - molybdate, selenate, phosphate, borate... Arsenate is not a chemical. Carbon is not organic. Nitrate is not a chemical. Sulfate is not a chemical. Molybdate is not a chemical. Selenate is not a chemical. Borate is not a chemical. Im a BM wrote: ALL of these low oxygen metabolic pathways for oxidation of organic carbon generate ALKALINITY (as bicarbonate or carbonate) rather than carbon dioxide. Carbon is not oxygen. Carbon is not organic. Alkalinity is not a chemical. Bicarbonate is not a chemical. Carbonate is not a chemical. You spam and buzzwords show your own illiteracy, Robert. The Parrot Killer Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan

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Join the debate Nitrate Reduction - Powerful Greenhouse Gas Emission AND Alkalinity:

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