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Nils-Axel Mörner



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Nils-Axel Mörner26-04-2020 06:22
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(465)
Found the bloke I was looking for.Suprised he has not been wacked yet

Views on sea level change
Mörner disagrees with the view of future rise in sea level caused by global warming.[10] Mörner's self-published 2007 20-page booklet The Greatest Lie Ever Told,[11] refers to his belief that observational records of sea levels for the past 300 years that show variations - ups and downs, but no significant trend.[12] This contrasts with the IPCC view that sea level rise has been occurring at 2–3 mm (0.079–0.118 in) per year, over the last century.[13] Mörner asserts that satellite altimetry data indicate a mean rise in the order of 1.0 mm/yr from 1986 to 1996,[14] whereas most studies find a value around 3 mm/yr.

Mörner believes that sea level rise will not exceed 200 mm (7.9 in), within a range of either +100±100 mm or +50 ± 150 mm (2.0 ± 5.9 in), based on satellite data over the last 40 years and observational records over the last 300 years.[15] In 2004 the president of INQUA wrote that INQUA did not subscribe to Mörner's views on climate change.[16]

In 2000 he launched an international sea level research project in the Maldives which claims to demonstrate an absence of signs of any on-going sea level rise. Despite President Gayoom having spoken in the past about the impending dangers to his country,[17] the Maldives, Mörner concluded that the people of the Maldives have in the past survived a higher sea level about 50–60 cm (1.6–2.0 ft), and there is evidence of a significant sea level fall in the last 30 years in that Indian Ocean area.[18][19] However, these conclusions were disputed by due to lack of known mechanism for a fall in sea level and lack of supporting evidence.[20]

In an interview in June, 2007, Mörner described research he had done in the Maldives that had been reported in the documentary Doomsday Called Off.[21] Specifically, he mentioned a tree he had discovered growing close to the shoreline as evidence to support his claim that sea level had actually fallen rather than risen. He also alleged that the tree had been deliberately destroyed by a group of Australian researchers who were promoting the IPCC view that sea level was rising.[22]

Mörner's claim that sea levels are not rising has been criticised for ignoring correctly calibrated satellite altimeter records, all of which show that sea levels are rising.[23]


duncan61
26-04-2020 06:40
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(465)
At the coast where I live a limestone formation occurs close to shore at a place called Trigg beach.South of trigg beach is the wide open bay of Scarborough beach.From Trigg north the coastline has occurance of limestone on the beach and also into the dunes behind the shoreline some of these limestone cliffs have fossilized remains of ancient sea crustacea that are more than 30 feet above current sea levels.The sea level was much higher before and I know if the sea level dropped 30 feet you could walk to Rottnest Island and you would not be the first anthropological animal to do so
26-04-2020 06:53
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1728)
duncan61 wrote:
.....criticized for ignoring correctly calibrated satellite altimeter records, all of which show that sea levels are rising.[23]


Wish I could get one of these clowns to "correctly calibrate" my checking account to show a rising money supply.


gasguzzler, calling the jet stream the "Norwegian jet stream" is a bigoted statement. -James-
26-04-2020 08:45
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7293)
duncan61 wrote: Mörner disagrees with the view of future rise in sea level caused by global warming.[10]

duncan, I mean no disrespect, but why are you telling us what this Mörner dude has to say? Would you be offended if I were to tell you that he sounds like a loser to me? Writing what Mörner thinks carries less weight than if you were to write that it's what you think.

To that end, there are easy things that any rational adult can do to convince oneself that the ocean level has not changed to any discernible extent since at least 1945. I have done those things and I have convinced myself so of course I will take you on your word when you have done those things as well and report that you have thus convinced yourself.



.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
26-04-2020 08:46
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7293)
duncan61 wrote: Mörner disagrees with the view of future rise in sea level caused by global warming.[10]

duncan, I mean no disrespect, but why are you telling us what this Mörner dude has to say? Would you be offended if I were to tell you that he sounds like a loser to me? Writing what Mörner thinks carries less weight than if you were to write that it's what you think.

To that end, there are easy things that any rational adult can do to convince oneself that the ocean level has not changed to any discernible extent since at least 1945. I have done those things and I have convinced myself so of course I will take you on your word when you have done those things as well and report that you have thus convinced yourself.



.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
26-04-2020 08:51
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7293)
duncan61 wrote: From Trigg north the coastline has occurance of limestone on the beach and also into the dunes behind the shoreline some of these limestone cliffs have fossilized remains of ancient sea crustacea that are more than 30 feet above current sea levels.

What this means is that the same kind of geological activity that forms mountains raised that limestone more than 30 feet out from under the water where the now fossilized crustacea lived.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
26-04-2020 08:57
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(465)
Nils-Axel Mörner was interveiwed and I can not quote exact dates but he was the chairman for the IPCC directly involved with sea levels.He resigned when the IPCC would not accept his findings that sea level has changed over the years but not due to human activity and is currently gaining a millimetre a year in the northern hemisphere and none at all in the Southern.I have no difficulty believing this scientist who went on to do studies of his own back on the matter.curious to know why that is an issue as it supports the faith that nothing is happenning regards AGW/CC.
26-04-2020 09:25
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7293)
duncan61 wrote: I have no difficulty believing this scientist who went on to do studies of his own back on the matter

Herein lies the problem.

If you are telling me that you believe science that he has created then let's talk about that science.

If you are telling me that you believe him simply because he says so, then you are a mindless zombie and no one should listen to you.

If you are referring to him as a "scientist" then you should be talking about his science, yes? If you are only using the moniker "scientist" as a title of clergy because you think it generates authority for your opinions then you are mistaken.

Drop the idol worship and just be confident in your own opinions. Start talking about science instead of the opinions of someone else who isn't even present to be cross-examined.

Like I said, I have convinced myself through empirical observations and through vetted records. I cannot become any more convinced by corroborating opinions. If your opinion agrees with mine then we agree. If someone challenges your opinion and you and I agree, then I will gladly join you in supporting our opinion.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
26-04-2020 09:30
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
IBdaMann wrote:I have convinced myself ...through vetted records.


Ask yourself this Duncan. What possible reason would there be for IBD to not share the "vetted records"? He won't.

He has never shared a single "record" on this board in 5 years which he presented as reliable in any way.
Edited on 26-04-2020 09:30
26-04-2020 09:41
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7293)
tmiddles wrote:Ask yourself this Duncan. What possible reason would there be for IBD to not share the "vetted records"?

Maybe Duncan realizes that I don't have the records that I read, and that he can research anything that he wants to with or without my permission.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
26-04-2020 13:07
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(465)
I feel very disrespected IBDM.I prefer the interveiws with scientists who are calm and rational and they are scientists should I call them plumbers.I have no reason to not believe Nils-Axel Mörner has spent the greater part of his life studying sea levels.Who are you to call other posters morons for believing something.Sea levels have always been my big deal and I found someone in Nils-Axel Mörner that I can understand.Are you having a bad hair day
26-04-2020 13:27
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13002)
duncan61 wrote:
I feel very disrespected IBDM.I prefer the interveiws with scientists who are calm and rational and they are scientists should I call them plumbers.I have no reason to not believe Nils-Axel Mörner has spent the greater part of his life studying sea levels.Who are you to call other posters morons for believing something.Sea levels have always been my big deal and I found someone in Nils-Axel Mörner that I can understand.Are you having a bad hair day


The problem with a global sea level is that it is also not possible to measure, as there is no valid reference point to call 'zero'.

Land moves, you see. Satellites cannot do it, since they too must reference to a land station, and can only do that once per orbit (that station is in Boulder, CO). They are even worse than tidal stations, since satellites vary in speed and altitude depending on what part of the Earth they are orbiting at any given moment. Thus, the satellite doesn't really know how high it is. Since it doesn't know it's own altitude to that accuracy, it cannot measure anything like sea level with that accuracy.

GPS is good to +-100 ft of altitude, and that's about as accurate as you are going to get.

Claiming changes in inches or even a dozen feet is basically guessing, in the view of a satellite.

Tidal stations can measure sea level relative to the tidal station, but some stations are on sinking land, others are on rising land, storm surges mask anything like a global sea level, and tides also mask a global sea level. Even the land has tides. It goes up and down just like the sea does.

So what would you call 'zero'?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-04-2020 02:48
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(465)
Good answer as usual ITN.For us mortals doomed to die I am curious about the claims that more CO2 will melt all the ice and warm the oceans so that sea levels will rise and wipeout all the coastal communities.That is one of the IPCC claims is it not based on the scientific studies of the effect of CO2 in the atmosphere.My only concern is is it going to happen and why is it not happening already so when some one like Nils-Axel Mörner claims to have had a good look and declares it is not happening it makes me feel alll warm and fuzzy.I would like to use an analogy I have just thought of.I am about to get in my Jeep cherokee that is a project car for me and I have a good working knowledge of how it works and why and go to a job.I have met young women who never open the bonnet and just turn the key and go where they wish.We both get where we wished to go just I knew how and she did not but we are both there.Does that make sense.If the planet is O.K. as it most likely is and we all continue does it matter if someone knows how in fine detail.
27-04-2020 03:18
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7293)
duncan61 wrote: I have no reason to not believe Nils-Axel Mörner has spent the greater part of his life studying sea levels.

You are welcome to believe whoever you wish. Have at it.

You came here, however, implying that WE should believe this individual ... just because YOU believe him. You still have not mentioned word one of any of Nils-Axel Mörner's science. Apparently you have never asked to see any. Maybe you have been duped by a con man peddling credentials. How is anyone to make any sort of assessment if you don't discuss the supposed science in question?

So herein lies the problem. You are asking us to believe you without question, just on your word.

So what if the answer is "No!"? What then?

duncan61 wrote: Who are you to call other posters morons for believing something.

Watch me. If you or anyone believes in something stupid and refuses to address substantive evidence to the contrary then mockery is in order.

Now it happens that I tend to agree with you on various positions you have treated, but I'm not going to just believe everything you say just because you read it on the internet. The next time you make an argument based on it being someone else's opinion then yes, I will call you on it as well.

duncan61 wrote:Sea levels have always been my big deal and I found someone in Nils-Axel Mörner that I can understand.

Then tell me, what have you done to verify that sea level has not changed discernibly during your lifetime? ... or will you always rely on others to do your thinking for you.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
27-04-2020 07:06
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(465)
I go to Fremantle often and the tidal marks on the rocks are the same as when I went there fishing 45 years ago.This is my own personal observation.Google Nils-Axel Mörner and all his research is there.your choice of course.
27-04-2020 08:20
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7293)
duncan61 wrote: I go to Fremantle often and the tidal marks on the rocks are the same as when I went there fishing 45 years ago.

Awesome. Now whenever a warmizombie claims sea level rise, you can require him to explain the unchanging Fremantle tidal marks. If he cannot, tell him to get back to you when something changes.

What you have just metioned is far more valuable in this discussion than anyone's opinion. You have an empirical example that must be addressed satisfactorily by anyone claiminig doom and gloom.

On this point, can you take some photos of those tidal marks and post them, along with a GPS hack? I'd really like to add this to my collection of examples falsifying claims of sea level rise.

Once again, well done!



.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
27-04-2020 10:25
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(465)
when I said the same thing on SkS I was sent all these charts showing the sea level had gone up 8 inches.They realy should come and have a look
27-04-2020 11:46
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7293)
duncan61 wrote: when I said the same thing on SkS I was sent all these charts showing the sea level had gone up 8 inches.They realy should come and have a look

You have motivated me to make a page on Politiplex for this cause.

Ways to Verify there is no Discernible Sea Level Rise

I would like to include your photos of the unchanging Freemantle tidal marks on this page ... and your comments. I'm just going to open it up for people to build this page and it will be far stronger a statement than anybody's opinion.

Thanks.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
27-04-2020 12:59
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(465)
I am going there tomorrow I do plumbing work for a local plumber in the area I will take pictures of the rock walls I speak of
27-04-2020 13:07
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(465)
FREMANTLE

TIDES AND CURRENTS

Fremantle tidal movements are mainly diurnal with a small semidiurnal effect evident during neap tides. Astronomical tides range from .66 to 4.6 ft (0.2 to 1.4 m). Port authorities state that the normal extreme range of astronomical tides is 3.9 ft (1.2 m). Tides are measured at five locations throughout the port area.

In the entrance channel to the Fremantle Inner Harbor, currents flowing to the south across the Inner Harbor entrance may attain a rate of 1 knot. However, there is no recorded data of current flows during the passage of a tropical cyclone. There are no significant currents in Cockburn Sound.
I found this.High tide tomorrow is 11.49 A.M.I will go have lunch and photo the high water mark.It is going to be 1 metre
27-04-2020 15:00
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
IBdaMann wrote:...I don't have the records that I read, ...
Hand written notes from you man on the street? burned up Mission Impossible style?

You commitment to nothing ever being known is unstoppable IBD.
27-04-2020 15:48
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7293)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:...I don't have the records that I read, ...

You commitment to nothing ever being known is unstoppable IBD.

Your commitment to dishonesty is appalling.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
28-04-2020 00:15
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13002)
duncan61 wrote:
Good answer as usual ITN.

*humble bow* Thank you.
duncan61 wrote:
For us mortals doomed to die I am curious about the claims that more CO2 will melt all the ice and warm the oceans so that sea levels will rise and wipeout all the coastal communities.

This goes back to the central debate. Unwinding this chain of events brings us to the initial cause: that CO2 will warm the Earth sufficiently to melt on the ice.

According to the 1st law of thermodynamics (and the Conservation of Energy law), it is not possible to create energy out of nothing. Energy must come from a source, such as the Sun, and is dissipated into space around Earth. This Sun-Earth-space system is consistent (one of the requirements of thermodynamics laws). The only way to increase the energy upon Earth is to increase the Sun's output, or to move the Earth closer to the Sun. E(t+1)=E(t)-U (work).

According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, heat always flows from hot to cold, assuming it flows at all. Radiance is one form of coupling between regions. It is by radiance that the Sun heats the Earth, and again radiance that the Earth dissipates energy into space. The temperature in the atmosphere is generally colder than the surface. The 2nd law of thermodynamics does not allow for a colder body to heat a warmer one. e(t+1)>=e(t). Entropy must always increase or stay the same in any given system. It never decreases. To trap heat means the upper atmosphere is going to be even colder than it already is, and this would mean you are decreasing entropy.

The Stefan-Boltzmann law states: r=C*e*t^4. This means that radiance increases with increasing temperature. Both C (a natural constant), and 'e' (a measured constant), mean the only variables are 't' (temperature in Kelvin), an independent variable, and 'r' (the radiance in watts per meter^2), a dependent variable (it depends on 't').

This means that if, for some reason, Earth WAS to warm up, it would dissipate faster into space. If temperature goes up, dissipation of energy to space must also go up. If dissipation of energy into space goes down (trapping light), temperature MUST go down, not up.

The Stefan-Boltzmann law considers ALL frequencies of light, and is independent of any materials that are radiating. There is nothing magick about CO2. It cannot trap heat, it cannot trap light, and it cannot trap thermal energy, for there is always heat).

The whole 'greenhouse effect' create a paradox also:
The International Space Station outer skin temperature on it's 'daylit' side reaches 250 deg F. There is no appreciable atmosphere, no CO2, nothing. It is in space, and in the vicinity of Earth (orbiting Earth). Here on the surface, where there is CO2 and an atmosphere, there has never been any temperature reading even remotely that hot (thankfully!) from any weather station.

If CO2 warms the Earth, why is Earth so much colder during the day?

duncan61 wrote:
That is one of the IPCC claims is it not based on the scientific studies of the effect of CO2 in the atmosphere.

The IPCC routinely denies science and mathematics. They deny the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law. They deny the requirements of statistical mathematics and quote averages without margins of error being calculated, and from questionable data sources, never revealing the data itself, and never declaring their variance sources, and never declaring their bias elimination methods. Such 'math' is simply random numbers. They are of type randU, which are 'psuedo' random numbers that are simply made up in someone's head. Any algorithm to generate a number or a number itself that comes out of someone's head like that is a randU number. When you see people use 'everyone' and 'no one' in a conversation, that's quite probably a randU number.
duncan61 wrote:
My only concern is is it going to happen and why is it not happening already so when some one like Nils-Axel Mörner claims to have had a good look and declares it is not happening it makes me feel alll warm and fuzzy.

It is not going to happen. It can't. No theory of science may conflict with any other theory of science without falsifying one or both theories. All theories of science must be actual valid arguments as well. That means EVERYTHING is defined. Magick words like 'global warming' and 'climate change' or undefined, so such a theory based upon them 'greenhouse effect', is likewise undefined. It fails the internal consistency check and the external consistency check.

Undefined? If the global is 'warming', from when to when? How much? Why are these two points in time significant? Why are any other two points in time NOT significant?

Climate doesn't 'change'. Climate is a subjective word, like 'desert climate', 'tropical climate', 'mountain climate', etc. No matter what happens to the weather, a 'desert climate' is still a 'desert climate'; even if a desert is no more and becomes a swamp.

duncan61 wrote:
I would like to use an analogy I have just thought of. I am about to get in my Jeep cherokee that is a project car for me and I have a good working knowledge of how it works and why and go to a job.I have met young women who never open the bonnet and just turn the key and go where they wish.We both get where we wished to go just I knew how and she did not but we are both there.Does that make sense.

This is prevalent in all technologies. Do you worry about the complexities of getting into a large steel box, pressing a button, and rising into the sky? Most people that use an elevator (or lift) don't, and you do it all the time without even thinking about it. All that machinery, computerization, relay logic, the magnetic effects of electromagnetism that drives the various motors (there are several), the wiring, the cable or hydraulics, maybe some valves, the sensors, etc. are invisible to the average user. Even to the elevator technician, the grease he uses, the shaft lighting, the power company that runs the thing, he doesn't worry about or care. He doesn't know the chemistry that goes into making that grease. He just buys what works and is to spec and uses it.

And the chemists that make the formula for that grease, and produce it, they don't know anything about elevators.

Everyone views the world in their own unique way. Observations are tainted by that view, since all observations are more than just sensory stimuli. They must be interpreted by us as well. We interpret them according to our world view. This area of philosophy is known as 'phenomenology', and is the area that defines words like 'real' or 'reality'.

We each see and know our own layer of technology. We are users of the rest.

duncan61 wrote:
If the planet is O.K. as it most likely is and we all continue does it matter if someone knows how in fine detail.

The planet is ok. The Earth is big enough to take care of itself. Our puny little efforts to destroy it are just that: puny.

* We couldn't destroy the ozone layer even if we wanted to.
* We couldn't melt the ice on Earth, even if we wanted to.

Ice, as you know, is water. It has the highest thermal index of all common substances. It takes more heat to increase it by one degree than any common substance. In transitioning from ice to liquid water, there is the 'hidden' heat (latent heat) that you have to overcome. That is heating it, with NO increase in temperature visible on a thermometer. The heat you have to put into it to do that is 334 joules per gram.

That's a lot of ice to melt! Earth would have to be a hell of a lot hotter than it is now!

But, as I've discussed, that's not possible.

The Church of Global Warming will take any large storm that comes along as 'proof' of 'global warming' or 'climate change'. They again don't understand that science does not use supporting evidence, and this is one of the reasons why.

Only religion uses supporting evidence.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
28-04-2020 00:19
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13002)
duncan61 wrote:
I go to Fremantle often and the tidal marks on the rocks are the same as when I went there fishing 45 years ago.This is my own personal observation.Google Nils-Axel Mörner and all his research is there.your choice of course.

The tides in Seattle haven't changed in all that time either.

Hawaii beaches are still there. The navy base at Pearl Harbor is still there. The hotels the navy men would stay at are still there, and still on the beach.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
28-04-2020 00:21
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13002)
IBdaMann wrote:
duncan61 wrote: when I said the same thing on SkS I was sent all these charts showing the sea level had gone up 8 inches.They realy should come and have a look

You have motivated me to make a page on Politiplex for this cause.

Ways to Verify there is no Discernible Sea Level Rise

I would like to include your photos of the unchanging Freemantle tidal marks on this page ... and your comments. I'm just going to open it up for people to build this page and it will be far stronger a statement than anybody's opinion.

Thanks.


.

Nice idea. Hopefully, this will develop into a very useful resource.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
28-04-2020 08:06
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
Into the Night wrote:According to the 1st law of thermodynamics...it is not possible to create energy

This has been debunked here:
https://www.climate-debate.com/forum/venus-is-hotter-than-mercury--d6-e2710-s560.php#post_53018
The error is that this priciple applies to a "isolated system" which is one in which energy cannot be added. The Sun is a constant source of energy so this argument is missapplied to Earth as Earth is NOT an isolated system (energy can come in from space). It makes as much sense as telling someone who has a checking account with direct deposit that they cannot possibly save more money because money cannot be created or destroyed within their account.

Into the Night wrote:According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, heat always flows from hot to cold,...

This has been debunked here:
https://www.climate-debate.com/forum/the-radiative-greenhouse-effect-does-not-exist-d10-e3047-s40.php#post_53357
Here the deliberate deception is using the language "Heat Flows". "Heat" is by definition the "Net" difference in exchanged energy if there is one. The false conclusion, which contradicts ALL texts on thermodynamics, is that because a cooler object is not capable of raising the temperature of a warmer object that must mean a warmer object cannot absorb radiance from a cooler object. That is demonstrably false and proven by anyone reading this, standing in the room they are in now.
net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference

Into the Night wrote:The Stefan-Boltzmann law states: r=C*e*t^4... the only variables are 't' (temperature ...If temperature goes up, dissipation of energy to space must also go up...

What ITN neglects to take into account is that the Stefan-Boltzmann law applies to the "surface" of an object and NOT it's "interior" or every molecule of that object. This concept has been shattered! 500C shattered! By the example of VENUS linked above under 1st LTD.

ITN has no explanation for Venus. None.

It's also shown with Earth where the temp at ground level is ~30C hotter than our surface temp but Venus is just so huge it's a better example.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is valid for IBD or ITN
Edited on 28-04-2020 08:22
28-04-2020 08:40
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7293)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:According to the 1st law of thermodynamics...it is not possible to create energy

This has been debunked here:
https://www.climate-debate.com/forum/venus-is-hotter-than-mercury--d6-e2710-s560.php#post_53018

The problem is that it is not debunked there.

tmiddles wrote: The error is that this priciple applies to a "isolated system" which is one in which energy cannot be added. The Sun is a constant source of energy so this argument is missapplied to Earth as Earth is NOT an isolated system (energy can come in from space).

Your problem here is that you are babbling. There is so much wrong with your gibberish here that all I'm going to suggest is that you go get yourself educated. The reason that the 1st LoT doesn't make sense to you should be your big red flag to make a concerted effort to understand it.

Gibberish dismissed.

p.s. - the 1st Law of Thermodynamics does not require any sort of closed system.

A second gratuitous dismissal.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
28-04-2020 13:37
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(465)
I took a heap of pictures of the seas level in Fremantle but I am worn out from working and have to mail them from my I phone to my microsoft desktop then save them and I am sleepy will do it soon
28-04-2020 16:48
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7293)
duncan61 wrote: I took a heap of pictures of the seas level in Fremantle but I am worn out from working and have to mail them from my I phone to my microsoft desktop then save them and I am sleepy will do it soon

Awesome!

Also, please provide (you can post them here in Climate-Debate):

1) the GPS Lat/Long of the location (if you know it)
2) zoom in on as close to the exact location as you can in Google Maps and post the URL.

Thanks.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
28-04-2020 17:03
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
IBdaMann wrote:
The problem is that it is not debunked there....
...There is so much wrong with your gibberish here that all I'm going to suggest is that you go get yourself educated. .


Pretty much amounts to "Yes huh it is so! You're just wrong!"

Truly pathetic IBD
28-04-2020 18:42
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13002)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:According to the 1st law of thermodynamics...it is not possible to create energy

This has been debunked here:
https://www.climate-debate.com/forum/venus-is-hotter-than-mercury--d6-e2710-s560.php#post_53018
The error is that this priciple applies to a "isolated system" which is one in which energy cannot be added. The Sun is a constant source of energy so this argument is missapplied to Earth as Earth is NOT an isolated system (energy can come in from space). It makes as much sense as telling someone who has a checking account with direct deposit that they cannot possibly save more money because money cannot be created or destroyed within their account.

Mantra 20i...20a1...29...
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, heat always flows from hot to cold,...

This has been debunked here:
https://www.climate-debate.com/forum/the-radiative-greenhouse-effect-does-not-exist-d10-e3047-s40.php#post_53357
Here the deliberate deception is using the language "Heat Flows". "Heat" is by definition the "Net" difference in exchanged energy if there is one. The false conclusion, which contradicts ALL texts on thermodynamics, is that because a cooler object is not capable of raising the temperature of a warmer object that must mean a warmer object cannot absorb radiance from a cooler object. That is demonstrably false and proven by anyone reading this, standing in the room they are in now.
net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference

Mantra 20a2...25f...29...
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:The Stefan-Boltzmann law states: r=C*e*t^4... the only variables are 't' (temperature ...If temperature goes up, dissipation of energy to space must also go up...

What ITN neglects to take into account is that the Stefan-Boltzmann law applies to the "surface" of an object and NOT it's "interior" or every molecule of that object. This concept has been shattered! 500C shattered! By the example of VENUS linked above under 1st LTD.

ITN has no explanation for Venus. None.

Mantras 25g...25c...20b4...20b5...20j...20n...29...
The temperature of Venus is unknown.
The temperature of Earth is unknown.
tmiddles wrote:
It's also shown with Earth where the temp at ground level is ~30C hotter than our surface temp but Venus is just so huge it's a better example.


Mantras 25g...20o...29...
The temperature of Earth is unknown. The emissivity of Earth is unknown.
The temperature of Venus is unknown. The emissivity of Venus is unknown.


No argument presented. RQAA.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
28-04-2020 18:45
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13002)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
The problem is that it is not debunked there....
...There is so much wrong with your gibberish here that all I'm going to suggest is that you go get yourself educated. .


Pretty much amounts to "Yes huh it is so! You're just wrong!"

Truly pathetic IBD


You are babbling. You are denying the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law, and you are denying statistical mathematics, and just making up numbers and contrived 'proofs'.

RQAA.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
28-04-2020 20:48
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
Into the Night wrote:
The temperature of Venus is unknown.


IBdaMann wrote:...the extreme heat of Venus
Into the Night wrote:In the case of Venus, that atmosphere has almost no hydrogen in it at all.
Into the Night wrote:The Venusian atmosphere is almost all CO2.
Into the Night wrote:The surface pressure is 90 times the surface pressure on Earth.
Into the Night wrote:...the high temperatures of Venus.

From:the DATA MINE

FRAUD

Into the Night wrote:
You are babbling. You are denying the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics ...
I suppose you consider that a rebuttal?

Denying them how?
Edited on 28-04-2020 20:50
28-04-2020 23:37
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13002)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
The temperature of Venus is unknown.


IBdaMann wrote:...the extreme heat of Venus
Into the Night wrote:In the case of Venus, that atmosphere has almost no hydrogen in it at all.
Into the Night wrote:The Venusian atmosphere is almost all CO2.
Into the Night wrote:The surface pressure is 90 times the surface pressure on Earth.
Into the Night wrote:...the high temperatures of Venus.

From:the DATA MINE

FRAUD

Into the Night wrote:
You are babbling. You are denying the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics ...
I suppose you consider that a rebuttal?

Denying them how?

No, I do not consider your post a rebuttal. I consider it Mantras 16b...7...29...

No argument presented. RQAA.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 28-04-2020 23:38
29-04-2020 00:06
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
Into the Night wrote:RQAA.
So your response to being demonstrably a fraud is RQAA.

Well ITN there is no way to fix that one so I don't know what you could say.

You guys should learn a very important trick: admitting you're wrong.

I'm wrong often and I have no problem with that. If I couldn't admit it I would probably drift off into insanity as you have.
29-04-2020 01:02
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7293)
tmiddles wrote:I'm wrong often and I have no problem with that. If I couldn't admit it I would probably drift off into insanity as you have.

So you admit that you are wrong about thermal energy being able to flow from cooler to warmer?

Wait, you just can't admit that you're wrong, can you?


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
29-04-2020 03:17
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13002)
tmiddles wrote:...deleted Mantra 16b...7...17...lie...1...


No argument presented.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
30-04-2020 00:12
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
IBdaMann wrote:
So you admit that you are wrong about thermal energy being able to flow from cooler to warmer?


I would need your definition for "flow"

I actually don't use that word in my claim that radiance from cooler objects is absorbed by warmer ones.

Do you see the word flow in there? Nope

As I define flow it's always a "net flow" so when there is a "flow" of thermal energy, that is called "Heat" and that can ONLY move in one direction.
30-04-2020 00:26
James___
★★★★★
(2977)
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote:I'm wrong often and I have no problem with that. If I couldn't admit it I would probably drift off into insanity as you have.

So you admit that you are wrong about thermal energy being able to flow from cooler to warmer?

Wait, you just can't admit that you're wrong, can you?


.



In the stratosphere, ozone moves heat from cold to hot quite effectively. I just falsified science for you, ITN, Harvey55 and gfm7175. Science as it turns out does allow for cold to flow to hot so that hot stays hot.
This is old IBDM. Until you die you'll claim that the stratosphere does help to cool our atmosphere even when everything in physics says that it does. Is living either on the reservation or in Russia that abd?
30-04-2020 03:40
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13002)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
So you admit that you are wrong about thermal energy being able to flow from cooler to warmer?


I would need your definition for "flow"

I actually don't use that word in my claim that radiance from cooler objects is absorbed by warmer ones.

Do you see the word flow in there? Nope

As I define flow it's always a "net flow" so when there is a "flow" of thermal energy, that is called "Heat" and that can ONLY move in one direction.


There is no such thing as 'net flow'. Buzzword fallacy. Heat does not flow from cold to hot, not even by radiance.
Mantra 20a2.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
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