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16-09-2019 20:18
Harry C
☆☆☆☆☆
(32)
IBdaMann wrote:
There is a lot of attention being placed on getting all those grocery store coolers running on CO2 systems. CO2 runs around $1/lb whereas other commercial refrigerants cost over $4/lb. The Department of Energy is researching ways to make CO2 refrigeration systems more efficient as a way of exploring operational cost reductions in refrigeration nationwide while also being able to sell it as "being green" to those who are locked into the "address Climate Change" mindset.


That's good stuff. Thanks for sharing.


You learn something new every day if you are lucky!
16-09-2019 20:26
Harry C
☆☆☆☆☆
(32)
Into the Night wrote:
spot is trying to show that absorption of infrared light emitted from Earth's surface is sufficient to warm the Earth. It isn't. He is denying the 1st law of thermodynamics by creating heat out of nothing. Earth's surface is COOLED by emitting infrared light. He also has failed to mention that the CO2 is also emitting infrared light according to it's own temperature.

It really is just a fancy way of saying that the surface heats the cooler air above it. It does so by conduction and by radiance.

At this point the Church of Global Warming will usually say that cooler CO2 gas is capable of heating the warmer Earth's surface, in violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. I call this the Magick Bouncing Photon argument.

Another usual response to say that CO2 simply holds the heat, holds the thermal energy, or holds the light, acting like a thermal insulator. I call this the Magick Blanket argument. This violates the 1st law of thermodynamics again, since you can't destroy energy, and the 2nd law of thermodynamics since you can't slow or trap heat, trap thermal energy, or trap light (Plank's law and the Stefan-Boltzmann law).

Feeling trapped, your typical Church of Global Warming faithful will condemn you as a Great Satan of their religion (they're right!), and reduce themselves to throwing insults you, bash Trump, or just resort to bulverism. To them, the religion is Truth, and therefore it is Truth. It is a circular argument. They are trying to prove a circular argument, resulting in a circular argument fallacy. This is what a fundamentalist does.

The Church of Global Warming is a fundamentalist style religion.


Thank you for the insight. I'm going to deliberate on this with some other information that I'd like to expand upon and will come back to it.


You learn something new every day if you are lucky!
16-09-2019 21:33
Tai Hai Chen
★★★★☆
(1069)
spot wrote:
And Venus is still very hot. Hard to explain without a Greenhouse effect.


Venus has 100 times the atmosphere as Earth. Venus higher temperature can be easily explained by more air rather than by different composition of air.
16-09-2019 21:56
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
[*find-ATOMSPHEREREFRIGERATES]

tmiddles wrote: The atmosphere can have a huge impact on a planets ground level temp .

We have been over this exhaustively.

Yes, the earth's atmosphere has a huge refrigeration effect. Our ocean does not utterly boil away in the daytime because our atmosphere ensures it remains between very cool and freezing. That is one powerful refrigeration effect! Nowhere on the surface of the earth ever reaches 130degC like on the moon which has no atmosphere to refrigerate it like earth does.

I'm sure CO2 plays a big part in that, perhaps why CO2 is an industrial refrigerant.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
Edited on 16-09-2019 21:58
16-09-2019 23:18
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1431)
I do find it pretty humorous....

2 of the best damn refrigerants out there are going bye bye (R22 and rumor has it 410A is on the chopping block) because of their "Global Warming Potential".

Aside from the extremely high operating pressures and additional ejectors, it appears that the one gas that is blamed for all the "warming" will now be heading to the front of the line as the refrigerant of the future.

Seems like this could REALLY fuk up the propaganda!!
17-09-2019 03:15
Wake
★★★★★
(4031)
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
spot wrote:
And Venus is still very hot. Hard to explain without a Greenhouse effect.


Venus has 100 times the atmosphere as Earth. Venus higher temperature can be easily explained by more air rather than by different composition of air.


You are entirely correct. The average surface temperature of Venus is higher than the sunny side of Mercury. And this is entirely because heat moves more slowly through a denser material and the denser material has a higher specific heat.
17-09-2019 07:05
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
Wake wrote: And this is entirely because heat moves more slowly through a denser material and the denser material has a higher specific heat.

Wake, this is not correct. Density does not matter. What matters is the substance's thermal coefficient.

Styrofoam is not dense. Coffee cups are made of styrofoam precisely because it has a very low thermal coefficient and greatly reduces the flow of thermal energy.

Read up a little on conduction; it's pretty straightforward.

[url]https://cnx.org/contents/Ax2o07Ul@17.22
77aQy86@12/14-5-Conduction[/url]


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
17-09-2019 08:37
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
Wake wrote:
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
spot wrote:
And Venus is still very hot. Hard to explain without a Greenhouse effect.


Venus has 100 times the atmosphere as Earth. Venus higher temperature can be easily explained by more air rather than by different composition of air.


You are entirely correct. The average surface temperature of Venus is higher than the sunny side of Mercury. And this is entirely because heat moves more slowly through a denser material and the denser material has a higher specific heat.


You cannot slow or trap heat.

Carbon dioxide is actually one of the best conductors of heat in the atmosphere.


The Parrot Killer
17-09-2019 20:16
spot
★★★★☆
(1077)
Harry C wrote:
spot wrote:

I'm going to have to use an analogy. imagine a pool table. the white ball is CO2, the colours are Oxygen Nitrogen and Argon, the Cue is IR. The Cue can only hit the white ball but once that energy is converted into heat its transferred to the other balls.


How is that debateable? I'm really looking for something more tangible.


Well it's an analogy which if it's a good one helps to understand the the thing. how Co2 interacts with infrared on the quantum level is not something you can debate. The fact that you are entertaining the idea that well established atmospheric physics violates the laws of physics shows I've failed with my analogy.


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
17-09-2019 20:21
keepit
★★★☆☆
(598)
IBDM,
I've never herd you comment on E equalling MC2.
What can you say that would be interesting?
17-09-2019 20:37
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
spot wrote:
Harry C wrote:
spot wrote:

I'm going to have to use an analogy. imagine a pool table. the white ball is CO2, the colours are Oxygen Nitrogen and Argon, the Cue is IR. The Cue can only hit the white ball but once that energy is converted into heat its transferred to the other balls.


How is that debateable? I'm really looking for something more tangible.


Well it's an analogy which if it's a good one helps to understand the the thing. how Co2 interacts with infrared on the quantum level is not something you can debate. The fact that you are entertaining the idea that well established atmospheric physics violates the laws of physics shows I've failed with my analogy.


So CO2 absorbs infrared light coming from the surface of the Earth. That does not warm the Earth.


The Parrot Killer
17-09-2019 20:39
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
keepit wrote:
IBDM,
I've never herd you comment on E equalling MC2.
What can you say that would be interesting?


You think he's a trained seal or something? Define 'interesting'.


The Parrot Killer
17-09-2019 20:44
keepit
★★★☆☆
(598)
ITN,
Is E equalling MC2 something you and IBDM can talk about?
17-09-2019 20:45
keepit
★★★☆☆
(598)
ITN,
Is E equalling MC2 something you and IBDM can talk about?
17-09-2019 20:52
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
keepit wrote:
IBDM,
I've never herd you comment on E equalling MC2.
What can you say that would be interesting?

You haven't looked up what I have said on the matter, have you?

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
17-09-2019 20:53
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
keepit wrote:
ITN,
Is E equalling MC2 something you and IBDM can talk about?


Sure. We could talk about it, we generally don't bother.

What is your fascination with this equation and what does it have to do with any debate on global warming?

Any other random equations you want to discuss?


The Parrot Killer
17-09-2019 20:56
keepit
★★★☆☆
(598)
What do you and IBDM think about E=MC2?
17-09-2019 20:59
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
keepit wrote:
What do you and IBDM think about E=MC2?


What do you think about the color 'red'?


The Parrot Killer
17-09-2019 21:01
keepit
★★★☆☆
(598)
Do you think E=MC2 is a valid equation?
17-09-2019 21:14
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
keepit wrote: Do you think E=MC2 is a valid equation?

Equations are either TRUE or FALSE. VALID is not a truth value.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
17-09-2019 21:18
keepit
★★★☆☆
(598)
IBDM,
Do you think that nuclear mass can be converted to energy and vice versa?
17-09-2019 21:21
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
keepit wrote: IBDM, Do you think that nuclear mass can be converted to energy and vice versa?

I think that all matter is energy.

I do not think that all energy can be converted to matter.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
17-09-2019 21:22
keepit
★★★☆☆
(598)
I think all matter is energy too.
Do you think Einstein is correct about E=MC2?
17-09-2019 21:31
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
keepit wrote:
I think all matter is energy too.
Do you think Einstein is correct about E=MC2?

Yes, but the operative word should be "was" not "is."


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
17-09-2019 23:12
keepit
★★★☆☆
(598)
ITN,
Do you think Einstein was/is correct about E=MC2, matter and energy are interconvertible under the right circumstances?
18-09-2019 05:03
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
keepit wrote:
ITN,
Do you think Einstein was/is correct about E=MC2, matter and energy are interconvertible under the right circumstances?

They are equivalent, not interconvertible.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
18-09-2019 05:20
keepit
★★★☆☆
(598)
Could you explain that a little?
Thanks.
18-09-2019 05:41
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
keepit wrote:
Could you explain that a little?
Thanks.

A particular quantity of energy will behave as a brick of the same quantity of mass, but you cannot "interconvert" the energy into the brick.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
18-09-2019 05:52
keepit
★★★☆☆
(598)
Thanks for your reply but that doesn't sound quite right to me.
The Large Hadron Collider converts energy into mass.
18-09-2019 07:59
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
keepit wrote:
Thanks for your reply but that doesn't sound quite right to me.
The Large Hadron Collider converts energy into mass.


No. Energy IS mass. The only thing that is happening is a change of the frame of reference.


The Parrot Killer
18-09-2019 13:24
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
keepit wrote:
Thanks for your reply but that doesn't sound quite right to me.
The Large Hadron Collider converts energy into mass.

Great! Let me know when Star Trek "replicators" are invented. It will be a grand world.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
18-09-2019 18:10
keepit
★★★☆☆
(598)
The mass of a proton is more than the mass of the quarks in the proton, the mass of the proton is mostly the (mass) of the binding energy of the quarks.
18-09-2019 18:33
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1347)
keepit wrote:
Thanks for your reply but that doesn't sound quite right to me.
The Large Hadron Collider converts energy into mass.


I know perspective, is frowned upon by the IPCC... But consider the LHC's electric bill, and the minute amount of what it produces. The amount is barely detectable, and for only a brief moment. The run the tests many times, and hope to get lucky. Wonder what the LHC's Carbon-Footprint might be... I know they ain't running that thing on solar panels and windmills.

Didn't they just start construction on a much bigger collider last year? Something to ponder, in relation to the 'consensus issue... Apparently, a bunch of scientist are blatantly anti-global warming, to use so much precious electricity. Or, are the science and political classes, exempt from going 'green'? Is it just the blue-collar working class, to make all the sacrifices?
18-09-2019 18:50
keepit
★★★☆☆
(598)
Harvey,
The LHC uses a lot of electricity and that produces a lot of CO2. That doesn't negate their findings however.
It could be that we are in such a crisis regarding global warming that there should be a moratorium on certain things like the LHC, war, production of new cars, planes, and mcmansions.
18-09-2019 19:17
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1347)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
The LHC uses a lot of electricity and that produces a lot of CO2. That doesn't negate their findings however.
It could be that we are in such a crisis regarding global warming that there should be a moratorium on certain things like the LHC, war, production of new cars, planes, and mcmansions.


Figure most of it would get past you... Some scientist are insisting we cut back on our use of energy and resources, and focus on conservation, and saving the planet from a smoldering-cinder style demise. The LHC team, aren't concerned at all about global warming, a non-issue. They don't consider it important at all. The LHC was expensive to build, and costs a lot of energy to run a few tests. The bigger one is a whole lot bigger, and more power hungry. Why plan and built something, that they probably won't get much use out of? Unless they know something about global warming, we don't, like it's BS. 2050 is the target date to be completely 'green', for most civilized countries. I'm including the United States, since we only got 4 more years of sanity, and then likely another Obama, who will bend us over the desk, like with health care.
18-09-2019 20:00
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
The LHC uses a lot of electricity and that produces a lot of CO2. That doesn't negate their findings however.
It could be that we are in such a crisis regarding global warming that there should be a moratorium on certain things like the LHC, war, production of new cars, planes, and mcmansions.


There is no crisis. You are simply preaching the doomsday scenario from the Church of Global Warming.


The Parrot Killer
18-09-2019 20:04
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1347)
How much energy does the Large Hadron Collider use?
It's also one of the most expensive to run, clocking up around $23.5 million in electricity costs annually as it accelerates protons close to the speed of light. The CERN facility as a whole uses 1.3 terrawat hours of electricity (1.3 trillion watt hours) every year, enough to power 300,000 homes.
20-09-2019 23:45
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1322)
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: The atmosphere can have a huge impact on a planets ground level temp .
..., the earth's atmosphere has a huge refrigeration effect. .

What's it doing on Venus?
Are you going to claim we know nothing about the temperature on the ground on Venus?


"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed: The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference& Proof: no data is ever valid for them.[/quote]
25-09-2019 19:20
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
tmiddles wrote:Are you going to claim we know nothing about the temperature on the ground on Venus?

We absolutely knew the temperature quite accurately of some certain specific points. We don't know what the temperatures are right now at those same points. Do you claim to know what the temperatures are right now at those points?

Please tell us what those temperatures are.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
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