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Migrations induced by extreme climatic events



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Migrations induced by extreme climatic events28-09-2019 16:17
Third world guy
☆☆☆☆☆
(13)
It is a fact that certain climatic events generate migrations (droughts, floods, cyclones, etc.).

Looking for objective information about it, I consulted this site:

https://www.migrationdataportal.org/themes/environmental_migration

There are no direct measures of migration due to the weather, but there is a graph of publications about it.

Obviously that graph is increasing, in the same proportion as alarmism.

Conjectures cannot be made on such relative bases.

My question is if there is any other site on the Internet where that information exists.


There are three kinds of climate change: that generated by natural factors; that generated by man; and that generated by economic interests.
28-09-2019 17:19
HarveyH55
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(1347)
I think something like that would be very hard to find, with out bias, or agenda. Migration is normal, and natural, common for most anything with legs. It generally about survival, if the environment becomes hostile, or no longer provides the essential needs, it's time to move on. Humans, on the other hand, have additional motivations for migrating, which don't involve survival factors. A large number of the people illegally crossing our borders, seem to have had every thing they needed to survive, and more, since the can afford to pay people to help them get into the country illegally, several thousands of dollars, each. I tend to believe much of that money is set to them from relatives, that made the trip successfully before them. Which is another good reason to deport, since many are commit crimes, by supporting illegal activities of smuggling their relatives over the border, as well as not paying taxes on their income, while enjoying the services the rest of pay for. Human migration, isn't entirely environmental, it's often greed and lifestyle. Most of the higher developed countries, also pass out free money, like candy on Halloween night. Migrants are lazy, the are very hard workers, for the most part, takes a while for them to learn new skills, like slacking off, doing the bare minimal.

People who are doing okay, may still migrate, as they want better, or more stable lives, health reasons, maybe just different interests, or opportunities. Humans tend to migrate, entirely by choice, not so much by environmental conditions. Most places on earth go through some rough environmental periods, some are seasonal, some are rare, but the potential for disaster comes every year. I live in Florida, it's mostly decent the entire year, but we do get some severe weather events. Most don't last very long, seldom devastating, but the threat always exists. Maybe be not great for everyone, but it works for me, and quite a few other people. A lot of people like Alaska, where it's cold and frozen most of the year. We can learn to adapt to most any environment, some are more work than others, some more dangerous. It's really more of a choice and preference, depending on how much work you are willing to put into it, and what extremes you are comfortable dealing with. I don't like dealing with cold, so migrated to Florida, with no regrets.
28-09-2019 20:05
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
Worse, some migrations are tracked (such as crossing international boundaries), some are not (such as crossing State boundaries) leaving only estimates (guessing) for those. There is no tracking for the reason for a migration either. Again, that's just estimates (guessing).

So depending on what migration you are interested in, you might be able to find some data, others, you won't.
Edited on 28-09-2019 20:06
28-09-2019 20:19
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
HarveyH55 wrote:
I think something like that would be very hard to find, with out bias, or agenda. Migration is normal, and natural, common for most anything with legs. It generally about survival, if the environment becomes hostile, or no longer provides the essential needs, it's time to move on. Humans, on the other hand, have additional motivations for migrating, which don't involve survival factors. A large number of the people illegally crossing our borders, seem to have had every thing they needed to survive, and more, since the can afford to pay people to help them get into the country illegally, several thousands of dollars, each. I tend to believe much of that money is set to them from relatives, that made the trip successfully before them. Which is another good reason to deport, since many are commit crimes, by supporting illegal activities of smuggling their relatives over the border, as well as not paying taxes on their income, while enjoying the services the rest of pay for. Human migration, isn't entirely environmental, it's often greed and lifestyle. Most of the higher developed countries, also pass out free money, like candy on Halloween night. Migrants are lazy, the are very hard workers, for the most part, takes a while for them to learn new skills, like slacking off, doing the bare minimal.

People who are doing okay, may still migrate, as they want better, or more stable lives, health reasons, maybe just different interests, or opportunities. Humans tend to migrate, entirely by choice, not so much by environmental conditions. Most places on earth go through some rough environmental periods, some are seasonal, some are rare, but the potential for disaster comes every year. I live in Florida, it's mostly decent the entire year, but we do get some severe weather events. Most don't last very long, seldom devastating, but the threat always exists. Maybe be not great for everyone, but it works for me, and quite a few other people. A lot of people like Alaska, where it's cold and frozen most of the year. We can learn to adapt to most any environment, some are more work than others, some more dangerous. It's really more of a choice and preference, depending on how much work you are willing to put into it, and what extremes you are comfortable dealing with. I don't like dealing with cold, so migrated to Florida, with no regrets.


I've known several reasons people migrate to Florida:
* warmer temperatures, including winter temperatures.
* friendly environment financially for retirees.
* lower overall tax rates (government corruption for less! A bargain!)
* proximity to resorts.
* escaping persecution.
* because a relative already lives there and the migrant wishes to rejoin them.
* escaping socialism (such as Cuba).
* escaping island life (including the limited resources on an island).
* to join a lifestyle (the Keys, the Villages, the AANR, Miami, Orlando, golfing, scuba diving, etc.
* they got lost and couldn't find their way back out. Some of these are still searching for their car in the Disney parking lot.

Other than escaping the cold, I've never seen anyone move there because of the weather.

The folks in Bermuda didn't go to Florida to escape the hurricanes!


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 28-09-2019 20:21
28-09-2019 20:34
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
Third world guy wrote: It is a fact that certain climatic events generate migrations (droughts, floods, cyclones, etc.).

Allow me to challenge your "fact."

When did the people of Florida migrate away because of the hurricane? You can't tell me they're still there, right? I mean, their migration was generated, right?

When are people going to move back to California after they all migrated out because of the drought? We both know that they're not still there, right? After all, it's a fact that droughts generate migrations, yes?

By the way, ... what the F is a "climatic" event? If I were at a party and I wanted to avoid the dangerous topics of politics and climate and only talk about weather, how do I distinguish between what is a climatic event and what is just a weather event?

Thanks. I need these things explained to me.

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
29-09-2019 09:58
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1322)
Third world guy wrote:
Obviously that graph is increasing, in the same proportion as alarmism.
That we are going through a mass extinction on Earth https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/10/earths-sixth-mass-extinction-event-already-underway-scientists-warn is not likely to be due to climate currently. The article above doesn't give it top billing at all.
"Wildlife is dying out due to habitat destruction, overhunting, toxic pollution, invasion by alien species and climate change. But the ultimate cause of all of these factors is "human overpopulation and continued population growth, and overconsumption, especially by the rich""

Climate Change is a threat that, if it's going to be a serious problem, is looming and in our future. For other species on the planet it hasn't been a serious issue yet according to those who study it and advocate that theory (I don't think at least).

Animals running for cover in the Amazon are running from farmers burning their habitat to the ground to make room for cows. They are not running from 1/4 degree shift in the Earth's temperature.

It would be very difficult to isolate a migration from that pretty long list of human causes that aren't related to climate at all.


"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them
29-09-2019 19:24
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
tmiddles wrote:
Climate Change is a threat

Define 'climate change'.
tmiddles wrote:
that, if it's going to be a serious problem, is looming and in our future.

Undefined words are no threat.
tmiddles wrote:
For other species on the planet it hasn't been a serious issue yet according to those who study it and advocate that theory (I don't think at least).

Animals running for cover in the Amazon are running from farmers burning their habitat to the ground to make room for cows. They are not running from 1/4 degree shift in the Earth's temperature.

True.
tmiddles wrote:
It would be very difficult to isolate a migration from that pretty long list of human causes that aren't related to climate at all.

You are first going to have to define 'climate change' before you can label it a cause of anything.


The Parrot Killer
29-09-2019 19:36
HarveyH55
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(1347)
Have you considered that it isn't just human overpopulation, but many other species, which are protected, and forced into continued existence? Mankind has always slaughtered predatory, and competitive species, for fun, and profit, sometimes food. The wolves, bears, large cats, snakes, all limit populations of their food sources. But mankind has a long history, of just killing off any species, considered dangerous, or a threat to crops an livestock. There are several species we work hard to preserve, which have fewer natural predators. They have annual hunts, to reduce those populations, to reduce disease and starvation, when food is less available, during the fall and winter months.

I really don't know where people get the idea of mass extinction, there have been quite a few endangered species taken off the list, because their populations a growing fast. We had a few fish species taken off the protected list as well. People are kind of selective, about where and when, they are looking at species populations. Most will move, when the environment they traditionally call home, no longer supports their needs. A population in one area might be on the decline, since it no longer supports a large population. Nobody thinks to look on the other side of the hill...
29-09-2019 21:38
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Have you considered that it isn't just human overpopulation, but many other species, which are protected, and forced into continued existence? Mankind has always slaughtered predatory, and competitive species, for fun, and profit, sometimes food. The wolves, bears, large cats, snakes, all limit populations of their food sources. But mankind has a long history, of just killing off any species, considered dangerous,

Actually, many animals will kill off any species that becomes dangerous to them, if they can. They'll at least try to drive them off (just as we do!).
HarveyH55 wrote:
or a threat to crops an livestock. There are several species we work hard to preserve, which have fewer natural predators.

True.
HarveyH55 wrote:
They have annual hunts, to reduce those populations, to reduce disease and starvation, when food is less available, during the fall and winter months.

Hunters are among the best of those preserving species as well. Their conservation programs in the United States have restored many species.
HarveyH55 wrote:
I really don't know where people get the idea of mass extinction,

Simple. They made it up.
HarveyH55 wrote:
there have been quite a few endangered species taken off the list, because their populations a growing fast. We had a few fish species taken off the protected list as well. People are kind of selective, about where and when, they are looking at species populations. Most will move, when the environment they traditionally call home, no longer supports their needs. A population in one area might be on the decline, since it no longer supports a large population. Nobody thinks to look on the other side of the hill...

Ah. Here's the trick they use:

The same species on the other side of the hill is called a different species. Then you can claim that a species went extinct, while a related species on the other side of the hill is endangered (look at what happened on the first side of the hill!).

So you have the Columbia River Shrimp and the Rogue River Shrimp. The Rogue River Shrimp is found nowhere else on earth but the Rogue river, so you have to shut the irrigation valves to save it, leaving farmers destitute, even though it's really the same shrimp.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 29-09-2019 21:40
30-09-2019 01:53
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1347)
Back in the late 70s(?) they had a problem with logging, and a spotted-owl... Later, the found, that the same owl is found from Canada, all the way through Mexico.
30-09-2019 02:57
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
HarveyH55 wrote: Later, the found, that the same owl is found from Canada, all the way through Mexico.

That owl certainly got around!


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
30-09-2019 03:04
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1322)
Into the Night wrote:
You are first going to have to define 'climate change' before you can label it a cause of anything.
Anytime bub:https://www.dictionary.com/browse/climate-change?s=ts
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/atmosphere
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/temperature?s=t
Should you need any more: https://www.dictionary.com

HarveyH55 wrote:...other species, which are protected, and forced into continued existence? ...
Good point. Or just that we pump up the amount of certain species like cows, cats and chickens. Plants too. Grasses thrived as we cut down trees.

HarveyH55 wrote:
I really don't know where people get the idea of mass extinction, ...

We've had mass extinctions on Earth before:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/palaeontology/big-five-extinctions
End Ordovician, 444 million years ago, 86% of species lost
Late Devonian, 375 million years ago, 75% of species lost
End Permian, 251 million years ago, 96% of species lost
End Triassic, 200 million years ago, 80% of species lost
End Cretaceous, 66 million years ago, 76% of all species lost
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/prehistoric-world/mass-extinction/
"Recent estimates suggest that extinction threatens up to a million species of plants and animals"
https://allyouneedisbiology.wordpress.com/2018/05/20/biodiversity-species/ "estimates that a total of 8.7 million species live on the planet."

So yeah, 1/9th doesn't sound anywhere near 75% but that's what I could find

By the way if you're wondering if we KNOW this or it's speculation, remember we warmazombies do have a time machine (that's how we got to Planck and Provost turned them to our side).

Into the Night wrote:
So you have the Columbia River Shrimp and the Rogue River Shrimp. The Rogue River Shrimp is found nowhere else on earth but the Rogue river, so you have to shut the irrigation valves to save it, leaving farmers destitute, even though it's really the same shrimp.
That would be a great point if it were true.

First of all, adorbs!:They are an important food source for ducks and shorebirds, especially during migration.


So if you're a duck or a shore bird, bit of a issue with that columbia river fallback plan. They are 500 miles apart. One think about habitat is it's Location Location Location

I care more about a stable ecosystem than I do about any particular species vanishing (and we should seriously take out Polar Bears, Black Widows and anything that kills people)

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them
Edited on 30-09-2019 03:04
30-09-2019 03:45
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
tmiddles wrote: Anytime bub:https://www.dictionary.com/browse/climate-change?s=ts

Genius doesn't know a valid definition from a bogus one. The first "definition" he lists is the trivial circular, i.e. climate change is a change in the climate.

I say we just let him go on thinking that's perfectly fine.

Is someone going to tell him that he needs to unambiguously define "Climate" if he plans on applying science to it?


tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
So you have the Columbia River Shrimp and the Rogue River Shrimp. The Rogue River Shrimp is found nowhere else on earth but the Rogue river, so you have to shut the irrigation valves to save it, leaving farmers destitute, even though it's really the same shrimp.

That would be a great point if it were true.

Still stuck in "pretend they're wrong" mode.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
30-09-2019 04:42
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1322)
IBdaMann wrote:valid definition from a bogus one.

The climate is the weather long term. Weather usually means short term, typically one day. Just as asking what a business does annually is not the same as asking what happened on Saturday.

Weather is the wind, precipitation, temperature ect.

"Climate Change" refers primarily to the change in temperature over the long term. Why not say "temperature change", well you could, but nothing about "temperature change" describes that is't a long term view. Also the temperature has an impact on the other parts of weather.

But what you guys pretend isn't true is that people define words. You can play all the games you want pretending that we aren't allowed to talk about something but sorry, we are.

"Climate Change" and "Global Warming" are clearly and easily defined. They always have been. Hence the title of this very site "Climate-Debate.com".


"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them[/quote]
30-09-2019 10:18
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Back in the late 70s(?) they had a problem with logging, and a spotted-owl... Later, the found, that the same owl is found from Canada, all the way through Mexico.


The spotted owl was also used to designate 'old growth forests' and prevent property owners from using their land. It was land theft.

The spotted owl doesn't live in old growth forests. There is no food there. They eat mice, found in fields and meadows in younger forests. Old growth forests is dark and basically devoid of much life. It's a 'dead' forest. The only thing there are trees, a few insects, and fungus. Almost no mice.


The Parrot Killer
30-09-2019 10:25
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
You are first going to have to define 'climate change' before you can label it a cause of anything.
Anytime bub:https://www.dictionary.com/browse/climate-change?s=ts
...deleted unrelated material...

Circular definition. You can't define a word with itself! You can't define 'climate change' as 'climate change'. The phrase is still meaningless. Define 'climate change'.
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
So you have the Columbia River Shrimp and the Rogue River Shrimp. The Rogue River Shrimp is found nowhere else on earth but the Rogue river, so you have to shut the irrigation valves to save it, leaving farmers destitute, even though it's really the same shrimp.
That would be a great point if it were true.

This kind of thing happens all the time. Owls and other birds, shrimp, fish; happens to all of them. It's even happened to dolphins, sea lions, orcas, rattlesnakes, alligators, crocodiles, prairie dogs, and even whales.


The Parrot Killer
30-09-2019 10:34
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
tmiddles wrote:
I care more about a stable ecosystem than I do about any particular species vanishing (and we should seriously take out Polar Bears, Black Widows and anything that kills people)


Then you automatically condemn man to death.

Bees kill people every day. No bees mean little to no pollination for the plants. No plants, no food.
Black widow spiders catch and eat harmful insects.
Polar bears are like a walking Walmart store for the Inuit hunters. They provide food, fur, tools, leather, and material for weapons.


The Parrot Killer
30-09-2019 10:40
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:valid definition from a bogus one.

The climate is the weather long term. Weather usually means short term, typically one day. Just as asking what a business does annually is not the same as asking what happened on Saturday.

Weather is the wind, precipitation, temperature ect.

"Climate Change" refers primarily to the change in temperature over the long term. Why not say "temperature change", well you could, but nothing about "temperature change" describes that is't a long term view. Also the temperature has an impact on the other parts of weather.

Paradox. Which is it, dude?

You are now trying to define one undefined phrase 'climate change' with another undefined phrase 'global warming'. You can't define a word with an undefined word.

tmiddles wrote:
But what you guys pretend isn't true is that people define words.

Then define them. Define 'climate change'. Define 'global warming'.
tmiddles wrote:
You can play all the games you want pretending that we aren't allowed to talk about something but sorry, we are.

Not yet. Define 'global warming'. Define 'climate change'.
tmiddles wrote:
"Climate Change" and "Global Warming" are clearly and easily defined.

Never were. Define 'global warming'. Define 'climate change'.
tmiddles wrote:
They always have been.

Never were.
tmiddles wrote:
Hence the title of this very site "Climate-Debate.com".

Did you know it's possible to have a religion based on an undefined word or phrase? That's what the Church of Global Warming is.


The Parrot Killer
30-09-2019 17:19
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
tmiddles wrote: The climate is the weather long term.

That's genius, just like you. Give me an example of long-term weather.

There is no such thing as "long-term weather" just like there is no such thing as "global weather." Would you care to take a guess as to why you can't give an example of either?

tmiddles wrote: Weather is the wind, precipitation, temperature ect.

I use "etc." a lot too ... just not when I'm formally defining things.

Is "pressure" included in your "etc."? What about "visibility"?

Are these included in "Climate"?

I think I've figured out the confusion. You believe "definition" means "vague notion" and that "unambiguous" means "directly circular".

tmiddles wrote: "Climate Change" refers primarily to the change in temperature over the long term.

"refers to"? "primarily"? So I was correct, i.e. you think "definition" means "vague notion."

[defining religious terms in WACKY dogma]

tmiddles wrote: Why not say "temperature change", well you could, but nothing about "temperature change" describes that is't a long term view.

Fine.

The temperature at the Mexico City airport today at this time is 55degF.
The temperature at the Mexico City airport at this time on this date in 2012 was 62degF.

By any analysis, the overall temperature change over the last seven years has been -7degF.

So, are we are agreed that the "Climate Change" in Mexico City is -1degF/year?

tmiddles wrote: But what you guys pretend isn't true is that people define words.

Is this the position you are assigning to me today?

tmiddles wrote: "Climate Change" and "Global Warming" are clearly and easily defined.

... but it is apparently impossible for you to unambiguously define your religious terms. Christians have no problem defining Jesus Christ as their savior, but that doesn't enable physics to be applied.

Your bogus non-definitions preclude physics being applied as well.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
30-09-2019 18:17
Third world guy
☆☆☆☆☆
(13)
OK, IBDMann: you already made it clear to me.

Weather events generate temporary migrations. After the cyclone, flood or drought, people return to their place.

Even in the United States, when a cyclone arrives, people move to safe areas, and when the risks are reduced, they return home.

In the case of major climate events, the migrations could be definitive, and this complicates any statistics.

There is no way to prove that there are definitive climatic migrations at this time.


There are three kinds of climate change: that generated by natural factors; that generated by man; and that generated by economic interests.
30-09-2019 19:03
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
Third world guy wrote:
OK, IBDMann: you already made it clear to me.

Weather events generate temporary migrations. After the cyclone, flood or drought, people return to their place.

Even in the United States, when a cyclone arrives, people move to safe areas, and when the risks are reduced, they return home.

In the case of major climate events, the migrations could be definitive, and this complicates any statistics.

There is no way to prove that there are definitive climatic migrations at this time.


Climate has no events. Redefinition fallacy (climate<->weather).

Define 'climate change'.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 30-09-2019 19:04
30-09-2019 21:09
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1347)
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
I care more about a stable ecosystem than I do about any particular species vanishing (and we should seriously take out Polar Bears, Black Widows and anything that kills people)


Then you automatically condemn man to death.

Bees kill people every day. No bees mean little to no pollination for the plants. No plants, no food.
Black widow spiders catch and eat harmful insects.
Polar bears are like a walking Walmart store for the Inuit hunters. They provide food, fur, tools, leather, and material for weapons.


I got the impression that Polar bears mostly knock over trash cans, maybe snag a protected fur seal or two, if nobody is watching...
30-09-2019 21:19
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
Third world guy wrote:
OK, IBDMann: you already made it clear to me.

Weather events generate temporary migrations.

If it's temporary, it's not a migration, it's a vacation.

Third world guy wrote: After the cyclone, flood or drought, people return to their place.

Ergo, they did not migrate.

Third world guy wrote:Even in the United States, when a cyclone arrives, people move to safe areas, and when the risks are reduced, they return home.

Exactly. They don't migrate.

Third world guy wrote: In the case of major climate events, the migrations could be definitive, and this complicates any statistics.

You haven't even defined "climate" much less explain how a subjective charaterization can even have "events."

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
01-10-2019 12:07
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1322)
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: The climate is the weather long term.

That's genius, just like you. Give me an example of long-term weather.

Do you believe in weather at all? Is that "unknowable" too!

Guess what. The weather changes all year, it changes all month, all day, and even every hour, minute and second. It is never something you can know completely and exactly.

This is true of just about everything in the real world you can measure at all.

From a block of steel in the lab to the albedo of Earth.

You and ITN constantly pretend that something cannot be known because it is complex and changing. EVERYTHING is complex and changing.

There is a range and an average for just about everything too.

"Climate Change" and "Global Warming" are names FOR the same thing which, whether or not you agree with it, is clearly defined.

EVERYTHING has a temperature range and average. So does the Earth.

The theory, unproven but described in detail, is that primarily human release of CO2 which is sequestered in fossil fuels causes the temperature of the Earth (it's range and average) to go higher.


"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them
01-10-2019 14:00
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: The climate is the weather long term.

That's genius, just like you. Give me an example of long-term weather.

Do you believe in weather at all? Is that "unknowable" too!

Excellent EVASION! Give me an example of long-term weather.

If I'm looking at some weather, how can I tell if it's "long-term" weather or just regular weather?

tmiddles wrote: Guess what. The weather changes all year, it changes all month, all day, and even every hour, minute and second.

So if you know there is no such thing as "long-term" weather then why do you pretend it's a thing?

tmiddles wrote: You and ITN constantly pretend that something cannot be known because it is complex and changing.

Ahhh, the bogus position-assignment of the day.

tmiddles wrote:"Climate Change" and "Global Warming" are names FOR the same thing which,

... is your WACKY religion.

tmiddles wrote: is clearly defined.

...in your heart of hearts.

Hey genius, all fundamentalist believers such as yourself DECLARE their faiths to be "clear" and "defined." This nonetheless does nothing to magickally transform a vague, non-definition description into an unambiguous definition.

Your religion remains undefined.

tmiddles wrote:
The theory, unproven but described in detail, is that primarily human release of CO2 which is sequestered in fossil fuels causes the temperature of the Earth (it's range and average) to go higher.


How about this one:

The theory, unproven but described in detail, is that human sin angered God who caused the ocean to rise 15 cubits and threw violent "forcings" upon the earth causing extreme weather that killed all life on the planet.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
01-10-2019 19:26
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1347)
Is a drought considered weather? I remember something about a 7 year drought, and know there were others that lasted a couple years in other counties. That one in Ethiopia seemed to last my entire childhood, every other commercial on TV, was starving children.
01-10-2019 19:38
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: The climate is the weather long term.

That's genius, just like you. Give me an example of long-term weather.

Do you believe in weather at all? Is that "unknowable" too!

Specify. There is no boundary to the question.
tmiddles wrote:
Guess what. The weather changes all year, it changes all month, all day, and even every hour, minute and second. It is never something you can know completely and exactly.

So you are arguing that you cannot know the weather. Ok.
tmiddles wrote:
This is true of just about everything in the real world you can measure at all.

So you agree it is not possible to know the temperature of the Earth, the global atmospheric concentration of CO2, the global sea level, the temperature of the ocean, the emissivity of Earth, etc.
tmiddles wrote:
From a block of steel in the lab to the albedo of Earth.

You can measure a block of steel. You can know it's weight, it's average temperature (since steel is such a good conductor of heat), it's hardness, it's tensile strength, it's sheer strength, and its compressive strength. You can even measure how much carbon is in the steel.
tmiddles wrote:
You and ITN constantly pretend that something cannot be known because it is complex and changing. EVERYTHING is complex and changing.

Steel is not that complex and it is not changing until you heat it beyond 300 degF.
tmiddles wrote:
There is a range and an average for just about everything too.

True.
tmiddles wrote:
"Climate Change" and "Global Warming" are names FOR the same thing which, whether or not you agree with it, is clearly defined.

Then define them. You have now stated that they are synonyms. But you can't define a word with another undefined word.
tmiddles wrote:
EVERYTHING has a temperature range and average. So does the Earth.

True. We just don't know what the temperature of the Earth is at any given moment. You now agree.
tmiddles wrote:
The theory, unproven but described in detail, is that primarily human release of CO2 which is sequestered in fossil fuels causes the temperature of the Earth (it's range and average) to go higher.

Fossils don't burn. We don't use them for fuel.
CO2 is incapable of warming the Earth using the IR emitted from Earth's surface.
* You can't create energy out of nothing (1st law of thermodynamics).


The Parrot Killer
01-10-2019 22:06
gfm7175
★★☆☆☆
(194)
IBdaMann wrote:
How about this one:

The theory, unproven but described in detail, is that human sin angered God who caused the ocean to rise 15 cubits and threw violent "forcings" upon the earth causing extreme weather that killed all life on the planet.


Well, except Noah and the other "ark-riders" of course...
01-10-2019 22:34
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
gfm7175 wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
How about this one:

The theory, unproven but described in detail, is that human sin angered God who caused the ocean to rise 15 cubits and threw violent "forcings" upon the earth causing extreme weather that killed all life on the planet.


Well, except Noah and the other "ark-riders" of course...

I'm subdividing the body and treating the hydrosphere as a separate body. At the time, Noah and the Riders of the Last Ark weren't on the earth.

Question: From where did the dove come?


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
01-10-2019 23:07
gfm7175
★★☆☆☆
(194)
IBdaMann wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
How about this one:

The theory, unproven but described in detail, is that human sin angered God who caused the ocean to rise 15 cubits and threw violent "forcings" upon the earth causing extreme weather that killed all life on the planet.


Well, except Noah and the other "ark-riders" of course...

I'm subdividing the body and treating the hydrosphere as a separate body. At the time, Noah and the Riders of the Last Ark weren't on the earth.

Question: From where did the dove come?


.

Yeah, I figured you were considering them to not be "on the Earth", but just wanted to be a smart ass about it.
01-10-2019 23:12
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9573)
IBdaMann wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
How about this one:

The theory, unproven but described in detail, is that human sin angered God who caused the ocean to rise 15 cubits and threw violent "forcings" upon the earth causing extreme weather that killed all life on the planet.


Well, except Noah and the other "ark-riders" of course...

I'm subdividing the body and treating the hydrosphere as a separate body. At the time, Noah and the Riders of the Last Ark weren't on the earth.

Question: From where did the dove come?


.

According to the story, from the Ark itself.


The Parrot Killer
02-10-2019 00:14
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
Into the Night wrote:According to the story, from the Ark itself.

Well then, while the Ark was floating, the dove was not of the earth ... but of the hydrosphere.

Then the Climate Change changed and the dove was back to being of the earth.

I'm guessing that Climate Change Change causes rainbow forcings.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
02-10-2019 01:12
gfm7175
★★☆☆☆
(194)
IBdaMann wrote:
Into the Night wrote:According to the story, from the Ark itself.

Well then, while the Ark was floating, the dove was not of the earth ... but of the hydrosphere.

Then the Climate Change changed and the dove was back to being of the earth.

I'm guessing that Climate Change Change causes rainbow forcings.


.

Wow. There's a lot of changing going on here.
03-10-2019 07:49
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1322)
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Do you believe in weather at all? Is that "unknowable" too!
Specify. There is no boundary to the question.
My question is what YOU consider knowable as weather. Why play a game where I guess at what you believe and you say nu uh, guess again. YOU tell me what is knowable in terms of "weather" or you should be objecting every-time that word appears too.

Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Guess what. The weather changes all year, it changes all month, all day, and even every hour, minute and second. It is never something you can know completely and exactly.
So you are arguing that you cannot know the weather. Ok.
I'm not I'm saying knowing anything in this real world means having a grasp of it's changing reality. You're never 100%. Dissagree? If so give an example.

Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
From a block of steel in the lab to the albedo of Earth.
You can measure a block of steel. You can know it's weight, it's average temperature (since steel is such a good conductor of heat), it's hardness, it's tensile strength, it's sheer strength, and its compressive strength. You can even measure how much carbon is in the steel.
So I could address all of that but let's go with temp first. How could you know a block of steel (in the lab) had a certain average temperature?

Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
"Climate Change" and "Global Warming" are names FOR the same thing which, whether or not you agree with it, is clearly defined.

Then define them. You have now stated that they are synonyms. But you can't define a word with another undefined word.
Waiting to see if you consider the word "Weather" to be undefined.


"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them
03-10-2019 16:34
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
tmiddles wrote: My question is what YOU consider knowable as weather.

Oh, pick me! Pick me! I want to get in this.

I'm going to take a guess that Into the Night will claim that you can, in fact, know what the weather is, say, outside your house by, say, walking outside your house. Now, I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that if you were to, say, walk outside your house with no measuring instruments whatsoever, you could nonetheless know what the weather is to a level that gives you a high degree of confidence that you know what the weather is outside your house.

... and that's with absolutely no measuring instruments at all.

If I'm right, what do I win?

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-10-2019 17:43
gfm7175
★★☆☆☆
(194)
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: My question is what YOU consider knowable as weather.

Oh, pick me! Pick me! I want to get in this.

I'm going to take a guess that Into the Night will claim that you can, in fact, know what the weather is, say, outside your house by, say, walking outside your house. Now, I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that if you were to, say, walk outside your house with no measuring instruments whatsoever, you could nonetheless know what the weather is to a level that gives you a high degree of confidence that you know what the weather is outside your house.

... and that's with absolutely no measuring instruments at all.

If I'm right, what do I win?

.

Another tmiddles whinefest... YAY YOU!!!!!!!!
03-10-2019 17:53
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
gfm7175 wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: My question is what YOU consider knowable as weather.

Oh, pick me! Pick me! I want to get in on this.

I'm going to take a guess that Into the Night will claim that you can, in fact, know what the weather is, say, outside your house by, say, walking outside your house. Now, I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that if you were to, say, walk outside your house with no measuring instruments whatsoever, you could nonetheless know what the weather is to a level that gives you a high degree of confidence that you know what the weather is outside your house.

... and that's with absolutely no measuring instruments at all.

If I'm right, what do I win?

.

Another tmiddles whinefest... YAY YOU!!!!!!!!


C'mon, there's gotta be a prize at the end of this rope.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-10-2019 18:09
gfm7175
★★☆☆☆
(194)
IBdaMann wrote:
C'mon, there's gotta be a prize at the end of this rope.


.

Nope. That's all you get.
Edited on 03-10-2019 18:11
03-10-2019 19:17
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1347)
Without instruments, I can tell the weather, and I can make a fairly accurate forecast for the rest of the day. It's warm and sunny, light breeze, few clouds at a distance. Should get a little warmer, possible light shower (few minutes) later on, more sun. Nice day, might fly my drone a little.
03-10-2019 22:47
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4906)
gfm7175 wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
C'mon, there's gotta be a prize at the end of this rope.


.

Nope. That's all you get.

Ooooh, those meddling kids.


Wait! Were they meddling Russian kids?


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
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