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Maybe I'll understand you if we take this topic one question at a time?29-09-2016 02:47
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
I'll ask a question. I'll try not to make loaded questions. I would prefer a yes/no answer, with an explanation if necessary, but since I'm not an evil fascist liberal commie pinko, I won't restrict your right to say whatever you want. (The joke is that I support free speech, despite being an Evil Liberal. I'm not very funny.)

I might also make a statement, for which the corresponding answer would be True/False.

First Question/Statement:

Earth's surface radiates at an overall-energy-flow-rate dependent on its emissivity and its temperature. The spectrum of radiation roughly corresponds (at the least) to Planck's Law.

This is correct, right?


"Heads on a science
Apart" - Coldplay, The Scientist

IBdaMann wrote:
No, science doesn't insist that, ergo I don't insist that.

I am the Ninja Scientist! Beware!
29-09-2016 07:05
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
Urgh, that was badly written. I'll try again.

The thermal emission from the Earth's surface is dependent on emissivity and temperature, and can be modeled with Planck's Law. Right?
29-09-2016 12:52
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5025)
jwoodward48 wrote:The thermal emission from the Earth's surface is dependent on emissivity and temperature, and can be modeled with Planck's Law. Right?

Did you just shift the goalposts away from the "earth system" to the "earth's surface"?


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
29-09-2016 14:18
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
No. Please assume good faith here.

The Earth's surface radiates roughly as Planck's Law. Y/N?
29-09-2016 15:24
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5025)
jwoodward48 wrote: No. Please assume good faith here.
The Earth's surface radiates roughly as Planck's Law. Y/N?

I will assume that you are unintentionally using weasel words, but now that I have pointed it out to you let's have you word your question properly.

The earth's surface radiation at any point is based on its temperature at that point, which is affected by the convection of the atmosphere. Hence the entire earth must be treated as a body, surface and atmosphere and all. You cannot just discuss the "surface" (i.e. one part) as though it is the/an entire body.

Different points on the surface have different temperatures.

Different points on the surface are likely at different altitudes and have different amounts of surrounding atmospheric pressure.

Some points on the surface are airports and some are jungle and some are ocean, all of which radiate differently at any given moment.

Ergo, if there is a point on the surface that is radiating "as it is supposed to be radiating to adhere to Planck's" then there is another point nearby that is radiating differently and therefore is not radiating in adherence to Planck's.

----

Question: when you say "the surface" ...do you mean the ocean floor? If not, do you not therefore mean the asphalt under the puddle?

Just asking.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
29-09-2016 22:09
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
So... Now Planck's Law DOESN'T apply to Earth? Or does the atmosphere somehow make it follow Planck again?
30-09-2016 00:11
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5025)
jwoodward48 wrote:So... Now Planck's Law DOESN'T apply to Earth? Or does the atmosphere somehow make it follow Planck again?

Did you answer my questions in there somehow and I just missed it?


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
30-09-2016 00:32
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
No, I didn't. I assumed that you understood what the surface meant. (Was "asphalt under the puddle" an analogy or no?)
30-09-2016 01:47
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5025)
jwoodward48 wrote:
No, I didn't. I assumed that you understood what the surface meant. (Was "asphalt under the puddle" an analogy or no?)

The "surface" cannot be treated by itself. It's a spectrum of varying temperatures and other properties within a greater system.

You are attempting to draw invalid conclusions. Why won't you just stay on track with treating the earth as a body?


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
30-09-2016 01:55
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
But why would the Earth as a whole necessarily radiate exactly as much energy as it receives? Does longwave radiation not pass through the atmosphere? Do GHG not absorb some of that radiation? Does radiating that energy back down not prevent it from leaving? (This time, that is; it affects the rate, but it's not imprisoned on Earth or anything stupid.)
30-09-2016 02:15
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5025)
jwoodward48 wrote: But why would the Earth as a whole necessarily radiate exactly as much energy as it receives?

Why does gravity work the way it does?

jwoodward48 wrote: Do GHG not absorb some of that radiation?

Frankly, "greenhouse gas" and "greenhouse effect" do not exist in science. That's pure religious dogma. I don't know how they "behave" any more than I know how the human soul behaves.

jwoodward48 wrote: Does radiating that energy back down not prevent it from leaving?

Better question: rather than focus on a particular photon, do the forces that ultimately send a particular photon in one direction prevent all equivalent amounts of energy from going in any direction that would allow one to "escape" the earth?

(this time, no reverting back to focusing only that one photon that isn't "escaping" by your characterization but rather looking at all the photons and showing how the unimaginably countless energy form changes have some mechanism to prevent ANY corresponding amount of energy from ultimately leaving in its place)



.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
30-09-2016 02:31
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
Well, yes. If some photons do not make it to space, then the energy outflow is decreased.

Also, doesn't Planck's Law assume that the body is in thermodynamic equilibrium, or a black body?
30-09-2016 02:53
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5025)
jwoodward48 wrote:Well, yes. If some photons do not make it to space, then the energy outflow is decreased.

If MORE photons make it to space then outflow is increased.

Why do I feel like we're not saying anything meaningful?

Why are we speaking in terms of "making it to space"? Why aren't we only concerned up to the moment a photon leaves the last terrestrial matter that changes its form?

jwoodward48 wrote: Also, doesn't Planck's Law assume that the body is in thermodynamic equilibrium, or a black body?

Yes. You're not going to assert an equilibrium actually isn't an equilibrium without support, are you?


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
30-09-2016 03:51
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
You DO understand the concept of thermodynamic equilibrium? Petitio principii.
05-10-2016 15:18
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5025)
jwoodward48 wrote:You DO understand the concept of thermodynamic equilibrium? Petitio principii.

You DID finally grasp Stefan-Boltzmann, yes?


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
05-10-2016 15:32
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
Yes. How does it apply?

Besides, you never responded to my statement. You are assuming that the Earth is in thermodynamic equilibrium. Of course you'll end up with the result that the Earth cannot warm! That's part of the assumption!




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