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Maximizing Carbon Sequestration in Terrestrial Agroecosystems



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19-05-2024 21:40
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
Im a BM wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
keepit wrote:
and you're not the definer of words.

Yes I am. I define my own words from time to time, just like other people do.



"I define my own words from time to time.." - Into the Night


Yes, you do, from time to time.

You won't allow a dictionary or scientific textbook to define ANY words.

Any time one of the many, many terms you never learned (because you never actually studied science) comes up, you call them "meaningless buzzwords".

And "from time to time" you make up your own definitions.

"Alligators are amphibians" is one of the most hilarious.

And even though you REFUSE TO BELIEVE that organic carbon even exists, you insist on trolling a thread that should be of very little interest to someone who doesn't know or care what organic carbon is.

"The idiots who cite your research aren't really scientists" - Into the Night

And who could possibly be more qualified than Into the Night to know who is really a scientist?

With such self evident omniscience and scientific infallibility, there is no need for you to support any of your contrarian assertions with evidence.

Your word alone is enough to prove that "Lignin is a carbohydrate" because you already decreed that "The entire plant is just carbohydrates and some protein."

You do a great public service with your trolling and spamming.

I genuinely hope that you get EVERYTHING you deserve for it.


"sealover" is a PhD biogeochemist whose published research is cited in nearly 2000 different peer-reviewed scientific papers and textbooks.

The most relevant posts are compiled, beginning 1/3 way down page 22.

I did not define 'alligator', 'amphibian', 'scientist', 'science', 'mathematics', 'carbohydrate', or 'lignin'.

Science is not your religion. Carbon is not organic. Science is not a fallibility. Science is not a PhD or a buzzword or a paper or a textbook. It does not use consensus. There is no voting bloc in science.

It is not my problem that you cannot understand or read English.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
19-05-2024 22:06
sealover
★★★★☆
(1681)
Nutrient cycling dynamics of natural ecosystems can be mimicked in cropping systems to maximize carbon sequestration into soil organic matter, and minimize emissions of nitrous oxide. Tannin (aka polyphenol) chemical ecology provides insights into biogeochemical mechanisms that regulate carbon and nitrogen cycling.

The convergent evolution of tannin-rich plant communities has occurred on highly-infertile soils throughout the world. To acquire and conserve nitrogen, these plants allocate much of their organic carbon below ground to support symbiotic mycorrhizal fungi associated with their roots. Tannins in plant litter form recalcitrant complexes with protein, immobilizing this organic form of nitrogen and preventing mineralization. Mycorrhizal fungi produce enzymes that mobilize nitrogen from protein-tannin complexes, which is transferred directly to the root in organic nitrogen form. This short circuiting of the mineralization step in the nitrogen cycle prevents emission of nitrous oxide to the atmosphere, and prevents export of nitrate to groundwater or surface water. Allocation of photosynthate below ground to support mycorrhizal fungi also enhances sequestration of carbon into soil organic matter.

Tannins inhibit the oxidation of ammonium in soil to nitrate by nitrifying bacteria. This minimizes nitrous oxide emission as a by product of microbial nitrate reduction. Nitrogen release from tannin-rich litter is predominantly in the form of dissolved organic nitrogen rather than ammonium or nitrate. Dissolved organic nitrogen adsorbs to soil organic matter, minimizing leaching loss of nitrogen and retaining it in slow release form.

Tannins inhibit the decomposition of organic matter to substantially increase its mean residence in or above the soil. In the most extreme cases, equatorial rainforests form massive litter layers over acid white sand soils that are virtually devoid of nutrients or roots. One- or two-meters thick layers of litter in various stages of decomposition can accumulate above the mineral soil surface. This is despite warm, wet, well drained conditions that favor rapid decomposition. Exceptionally high tannin content in the vegetation of these forests enables them to create an enduring layer of organic matter above the soil surface, where virtually all the root growth and nutrient cycling occurs with high efficiency, and negligible losses.

Tannins themselves are the dominant substrate that transforms into soil humic acids. Humic acids enhance soil fertility in many ways, and their mean residence time in soil can be many centuries long. Tannins can comprise more than half the dry weight in foliage of tannin-rich species, and much of this represents sequestered carbon that will remain for a long time as stable soil organic matter.

We may not want to create thick litter layers above the topsoil in all our croplands. But polyphenol biogeochemistry can still be applied to increase carbon sequestration and decrease nitrous oxide emission. For example, tannin-rich organic matter can be combined with more rapidly decomposable crop residues or manure to slow decomposition and immobilize nitrogen into slowly mineralized organic form, as compost. Crop-mycorrhizal associations could be facilitated to sequester carbon and access recalcitrant soil nitrogen.
19-05-2024 22:07
sealover
★★★★☆
(1681)
This peer-reviewed scientific paper is NOT included among those compiled in the list that begins about 1/3 way down page 22.


This somewhat new paper is highly relevant to the thread topic.

Like every other peer-reviewed scientific paper listed on this thread, it either cites the thread author, or it was published by the thread author himself.



Elisabeth Ward, et al. 2023. Depth-dependent effects of ericoid mycorrhizal shrubs on soil carbon and nitrogen pools are accentuated under arbuscular mycorrhizal trees. Global Change Biology Volume 29, Issue 20, Pages 5924-5940.



Mycorrhizal fungi are fungi that live in symbiosis with plant roots.

Ericoid mycorrhizal fungi are associated with ericaceous plants, such as heathlands.

Arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi are associated with many forest tree species.
19-05-2024 22:08
sealover
★★★★☆
(1681)
This peer-reviewed scientific paper is NOT included in the compiled list of papers beginning about 3/4 way down page 22.


This paper came out about ten weeks ago.

It cites the author of this thread.


Remy Beugnon, et al. 2024. Microclimate modulation: An overlooked mechanism influencing the impact of plant diversity on ecosystem functioning. Global Change Biology Volume 30 Issue 3 (18 March 2024)



This peer-reviewed scientific paper would be of particular interest to those who are curious about how plants affect climate on a microsite scale.
19-05-2024 22:09
sealover
★★★★☆
(1681)
This peer-reviewed scientific paper is NOT on the list of papers compiled, beginning about 3/4 way down page 22.


This paper came out on line about two months ago.

It cites the author of this thread. The authors include folks who I know well and respect profoundly.


Mike Deas, et al. 2024. Geologically-derived nitrogen and phosphorus as source of riverine nutrients. Earth Critical Zone Volume 1 Issue 1 (June, 2024)



This actually relates to the work that Rush Limbaugh praised in September, 1998.

"Geologically-derived nitrogen.." Is a "pool" of N that was considered to be negligible before 1998.
19-05-2024 22:10
sealover
★★★★☆
(1681)
This peer-reviewed scientific paper is NOT on the list of papers compiled, beginning about 3/4 way down page 22.

Nor are the three papers shown in the three consecutive posts above this one.



This paper came out last year.

It cites the author of this thread.


Lauren Breza, et al. 2023. Complex crop rotations improve organic nitrogen cycling. Soil Biology and Biochemistry Volume 177 (February 2003)



"Organic nitrogen cycling". Makes me proud to see the term in a title. Prior to 1995, very few investigations attempted to measure or characterize this most important player in ecosystem nutrient fluxes and plant nutrition.




All the most relevant posts of this thread are compiled, beginning slightly more than 1/3 way down page 22.

A series of topics begins with "Carbon Sequestration and Allelopathy in Rainforest Fern Thickets", about 1/3 down page 22.

A series of peer-reviewed scientific papers related to this thread begins a little more than 3/4 way down page 22, and continues until a little more than 1/2 down page 23.

Every paper listed either cites the author of this thread, or was published by the author himself.
19-05-2024 22:13
sealover
★★★★☆
(1681)
This paper was published April 10, 2024

B. Adamczyk. 2024. Tannins and climate change: Are tannins able to stabilize carbon in the soil? Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry. Volume 72, Issue 16, pages 8928-8932.


This paper cites my tannin investigations and is highly relevant to the topic of carbon sequestration in agroecosystems.

The author and I are quite familiar with each other's research.

It was 35 years ago when I first became fully immersed in tannin (also known as polyphenol) research as a grad student at UC Berkeley.

At that time, anti herbivore defense was presumed to be the sole adaptive value for plants to make tannins, despite little evidence that they are effective.

Convoluted theories were created to explain why plant communities on highly infertile, acidic soils produced so much more tannin than plants on better soil, as somehow consistent with anti herbivore defense.

At that time, nobody considered how tannin production could benefit the plants that produce them through their impact on carbon and nitrogen cycling.

Tannins slow the decomposition of plant or soil organic matter they come into contact with. Tannins themselves are the substrate from which most soil humic acids are formed, having centuries long mean residence time in soil.

It is highly gratifying to see this finally reach the point where the application to address climate change is being so explicitly identified in the title of a new paper.
19-05-2024 22:15
sealover
★★★★☆
(1681)
Newest paper to cite "sealover" for published biogeochemistry research.

This paper came out on line 2 days ago, and will be published in the June, 2024 edition of the journal.

R. Xie, et al. 2024. Characterizing foliar phenolic compounds and their absorption features in temperate forests using leaf spectroscopy. ISPRS Journal of Photogrammetry and Remote Sensing. Volume 212, Pages 338-356.


More and more scientists are researching how phenolic compounds, most notably tannins (aka polyphenols) are correlated to multiple ecosystem processes, including carbon sequestration and stabilization of soil organic matter.

It is tedious to collect leaf samples, dry them, grind them up, extract them with solvents, and then assay them for total phenolic content or specific measure of tannins.

It is much more convenient to simply flash light of one wavelength or another on a leaf and record reflectance to calculate absorption. If that wavelength correlates well enough to phenolics, with a tolerable margin of error, it becomes possible to collect a thousand data points for the same amount of effort it would have taken to get a dozen data points with laboratory extractions.
19-05-2024 22:19
sealover
★★★★☆
(1681)
These peer-reviewed scientific paper are NOT on the list of papers compiled, beginning about 3/4 way down page 22.

Nor are the six papers shown in the six consecutive posts above this one.



(Yours truly, et al.). 1995. Polyphenol control of nitrogen release from pine litter. Nature 377:227-229.

cited in 793 different peer-reviewed scientific papers or textbooks

(Yours truly, et al.). 1998. Polyphenols as regulators of plant-litter-soil interactions. Biogeochemistry 42:189-220.

cited in 467 different peer-reviewed scientific papers or textbooks.

(Yours truly, et al). 1995. Intraspecific variation of conifer phenolic concentration on a marine terrace soil acidity gradient: A new interpretation Plant and Soil 171:255-262.

(including yours truly..). 1994. Determination of dissolved organic nitrogen using persulfate oxidation and conductimetric quantification of nitrate nitrogen. Communications in Soil Science and Plant Analysis. 35:3161-3169.

F. Stuart Chapin, III. 1995. New cog in the nitrogen cycle. Nature 377:199.

This last one is NOT by the thread author, but rather about the significance of one of the thread author's discoveries.




All the most relevant posts of this thread are compiled, beginning slightly more than 1/3 way down page 22.

A series of topics begins with "Carbon Sequestration and Allelopathy in Rainforest Fern Thickets", about 1/3 down page 22.

A series of peer-reviewed scientific papers related to this thread begins a little more than 3/4 way down page 22, and continues until a little more than 1/2 down page 23.
19-05-2024 22:53
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
Stop spamming.
19-05-2024 23:06
keepit
★★★★★
(3286)
itn,
Quit the mindless repetitions. You sound like a malfunctioning automaton.
20-05-2024 03:30
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14652)
keepit wrote: itn, Quit the mindless repetitions. You sound like a malfunctioning automaton.

keepit, shut up and let the adults get a word in edge-wise.
20-05-2024 04:08
keepit
★★★★★
(3286)
ibd,
Adults you say? Stick to reality if you can.
20-05-2024 04:28
sealover
★★★★☆
(1681)
TOP OF THIS PAGE, 2 posts down, is a description of the thread topic.

Three posts down, top of this page begins a sequence of six posts of more recent scientific citations for the thread.

Otherwise, all the most relevant posts and citations for related scientific papers are compiled, beginning 1/3 way down page 22.

Citations for related papers begin 3/4 way down page 22, continuing on to page 23.
20-05-2024 10:28
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
keepit wrote:
ibd,
Adults you say? Stick to reality if you can.

Buzzword fallacy.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
20-05-2024 10:29
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
sealover wrote:
TOP OF THIS PAGE, 2 posts down, is a description of the thread topic.

Three posts down, top of this page begins a sequence of six posts of more recent scientific citations for the thread.

Otherwise, all the most relevant posts and citations for related scientific papers are compiled, beginning 1/3 way down page 22.

Citations for related papers begin 3/4 way down page 22, continuing on to page 23.

Your religion isn't science.
Science isn't a citation or paper.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
23-05-2024 03:21
sealover
★★★★☆
(1681)
[quote]sealover wrote:
TOP OF THIS PAGE, 2 posts down, is a description of the thread topic.

Three posts down, top of this page begins a sequence of six posts of more recent scientific citations for the thread.

And now adding a citation for another new paper (April, 2024) that cites the thread author, and is directly relevant to the thread topic.

T. Song, et al. 2024. Allelopathy research on the continuous cropping problem of poplar (populus). Phytochemistry Reviews (April 8, 2024)


Allelopathy in field crops, for centuries called "soil sickness", can occur when continuous cropping of the same species leads to build up of plant secondary metabolites that are inhibitory to healthy root growth.

This new article is about the same phenomenon in forestry, after continuous cropping of poplar. And it also an extensive review of other research published about this topic.

So, that is the newest peer-reviewed scientific paper with a citation now added to the thread

Otherwise, all the most relevant posts and citations for related scientific papers are compiled, beginning 1/3 way down page 22.

Citations for related papers begin 3/4 way down page 22, continuing on to page 23.

SEE 5 OTHER THREADS ABOUT BIOGEOCHEMISTRY AND GLOBAL CHANGE
23-05-2024 03:23
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
Science is not a paper. Science does not use consensus. There is no voting bloc in science.
Stop spamming.
23-05-2024 03:28
sealover
★★★★☆
(1681)
TOP OF THIS PAGE, 2 posts down, is a description of the thread topic.

Three posts down, top of this page begins a sequence of six posts of more recent scientific citations for the thread.

And now adding a citation for another new paper (April, 2024) that cites the thread author, and is directly relevant to the thread topic.

T. Song, et al. 2024. Allelopathy research on the continuous cropping problem of poplar (populus). Phytochemistry Reviews (April 8, 2024)


Allelopathy in field crops, for centuries called "soil sickness", can occur when continuous cropping of the same species leads to build up of plant secondary metabolites that are inhibitory to healthy root growth.

This new article is about the same phenomenon in forestry, after continuous cropping of poplar. And it also an extensive review of other research published about this topic.

So, that is the newest peer-reviewed scientific paper with a citation now added to the thread

Otherwise, all the most relevant posts and citations for related scientific papers are compiled, beginning 1/3 way down page 22.

Citations for related papers begin 3/4 way down page 22, to page 23.

SEE 5 OTHER THREADS ABOUT BIOGEOCHEMISTRY AND GLOBAL CHANGE
23-05-2024 04:25
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
Stop spamming.
24-05-2024 19:53
sealover
★★★★☆
(1681)
TOP OF THIS PAGE, 2 posts down, is a description of the thread topic.

Three posts down, top of this page begins a sequence of six posts of more recent scientific citations for the thread.

And now adding a citation for another new paper (April, 2024) that cites the thread author, and is directly relevant to the thread topic.

T. Song, et al. 2024. Allelopathy research on the continuous cropping problem of poplar (populus). Phytochemistry Reviews (April 8, 2024)


Allelopathy in field crops, for centuries called "soil sickness", can occur when continuous cropping of the same species leads to build up of plant secondary metabolites that are inhibitory to healthy root growth.

This new article is about the same phenomenon in forestry, after continuous cropping of poplar. And it also an extensive review of other research published about this topic.

So, that is the newest peer-reviewed scientific paper with a citation now added to the thread

Otherwise, all the most relevant posts and citations for related scientific papers are compiled, beginning 1/3 way down page 22.

Citations for related papers begin 3/4 way down page 22, to page 23.

SEE 5 OTHER THREADS ABOUT BIOGEOCHEMISTRY AND GLOBAL CHANGE
24-05-2024 22:44
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
Stop spamming.
01-06-2024 03:02
sealover
★★★★☆
(1681)
James_ wrote:
If my experiment shows that CO2 directly supports recovery of the ozone layer then carbon sequestration would need to be a reversible process. This is because if
ODSs are not reduced then where would gasses for the ozone layer come from?

quoting NOAA who is quoting the IPCC;
[quote]Carbon dioxide (CO2), nitrous oxide (N2O), and methane (CH4) are each important to climate forcing and to the levels of stratospheric ozone (see Chapter 2). In terms of the globally averaged ozone column, additional N2O leads to lower ozone levels, whereas additional CO2 and CH4 lead to higher ozone levels. Ozone depletion to date would have been greater if not for the historical increases in CO2 and CH4.



I cannot begin to make sense of how your assertion about CO2 as the cause of ozone depletion could be plausible.

I have yet to see you propose a specific mechanism where a molecule of carbon dioxide does something to bring about the loss of an ozone molecule, that could make it more plausible.

James, I don't know what became of your CO2-directly-supports-recovery-of-the-ozone-layer experiment, but you might want to check something out before you submit your paper for review.

From the journal Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics volume 17 12893-12910

This 2017 paper by Khosrawi et al is titled "Denitrification, dehydration and ozone loss during the 2015/2016 Artic winter."

The first sentence of the abstract:

"The 2015/2016 Artic winter was one of the coldest stratospheric winters in recent years."

While surface temperatures were setting new records for the warmest years, the stratosphere was setting new records for coldest winters.

When the stratosphere gets cold enough, tiny droplets of liquid nitric acid can freeze and fall toward the surface. This is called "denitrification".

Apparently there is no "unambiguous definition" for the term (making it a "buzzword"?), because "denitrification" ALSO means microbial nitrate reduction to form nitrogen gas, and by product nitrous oxide.

"Denitrification" in soil and water at the earth's surface is the largest source of nitrous oxide emitted to the atmosphere.

As you note, nitrous oxide plays a role in the stratosphere.

With a very powerful oxidant such as ozone around, nitrous oxide can oxidize to form nitric acid, taking ozone out in the process.

With stratospheric temperatures setting new records for COLD winters, nitric acid gets more opportunities to freeze. Other ozone destroying agents get caught up in the nitric acid ice crystals as they form.

By some accounts, THIS is what has enabled the ozone layer to recover.

I encourage you to study up a bit on stratospheric denitrification, which happens when some of that nitric acid freezes.

It might help you complete the puzzle you are working on
01-06-2024 03:26
sealover
★★★★☆
(1681)
James_ wrote:
If my experiment shows that CO2 directly supports recovery of the ozone layer then carbon sequestration would need to be a reversible process. This is because if
ODSs are not reduced then where would gasses for the ozone layer come from?

quoting NOAA who is quoting the IPCC;
[quote]Carbon dioxide (CO2), nitrous oxide (N2O), and methane (CH4) are each important to climate forcing and to the levels of stratospheric ozone (see Chapter 2). In terms of the globally averaged ozone column, additional N2O leads to lower ozone levels, whereas additional CO2 and CH4 lead to higher ozone levels. Ozone depletion to date would have been greater if not for the historical increases in CO2 and CH4.



I cannot begin to make sense of how your assertion about CO2 as the cause of ozone depletion could be plausible.

I have yet to see you propose a specific mechanism where a molecule of carbon dioxide does something to bring about the loss of an ozone molecule, that could make it more plausible.

Spoiler Alert: this was "bait" for the counter claim that what is being asserted is that carbon dioxide PROTECTS the ozone layer, not that it destroys it.

To be followed up with the point that there is no MECHANISM identified whereby a molecule of carbon dioxide brings about protection of a molecule of ozone from loss.

James, here is my problem with you.

You offer the utterly absurd hypothesis that it would be a BAD thing to have atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide decrease.

And you posted extensively on this thread, as someone who thinks it is a bad idea to sequester carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.

Which is not a particularly useful contribution.



James, I don't know what became of your CO2-directly-supports-recovery-of-the-ozone-layer experiment, but you might want to check something out before you submit your paper for review.

From the journal Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics volume 17 12893-12910

This 2017 paper by Khosrawi et al is titled "Denitrification, dehydration and ozone loss during the 2015/2016 Artic winter."

The first sentence of the abstract:

"The 2015/2016 Artic winter was one of the coldest stratospheric winters in recent years."

While surface temperatures were setting new records for the warmest years, the stratosphere was setting new records for coldest winters.

When the stratosphere gets cold enough, tiny droplets of liquid nitric acid can freeze and fall toward the surface. This is called "denitrification".

Apparently there is no "unambiguous definition" for the term (making it a "buzzword"?), because "denitrification" ALSO means microbial nitrate reduction to form nitrogen gas, and by product nitrous oxide.

"Denitrification" in soil and water at the earth's surface is the largest source of nitrous oxide emitted to the atmosphere.

As you note, nitrous oxide plays a role in the stratosphere.

With a very powerful oxidant such as ozone around, nitrous oxide can oxidize to form nitric acid, taking ozone out in the process.

With stratospheric temperatures setting new records for COLD winters, nitric acid gets more opportunities to freeze. Other ozone destroying agents get caught up in the nitric acid ice crystals as they form.

By some accounts, THIS is what has enabled the ozone layer to recover.

I encourage you to study up a bit on stratospheric denitrification, which happens when some of that nitric acid freezes.

It might help you complete the puzzle you are working on
01-06-2024 03:32
sealover
★★★★☆
(1681)
Top of this page, 2 posts down is a description of thread topic, with extensive
reference to tannins, as per this new paper



This paper was published April 10, 2024

B. Adamczyk. 2024. Tannins and climate change: Are tannins able to stabilize carbon in the soil? Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry. Volume 72, Issue 16, pages 8928-8932.


This paper cites my tannin investigations and is highly relevant to the topic of carbon sequestration in agroecosystems.

The author and I are quite familiar with each other's research.

It was 35 years ago when I first became fully immersed in tannin (also known as polyphenol) research as a grad student at UC Berkeley.

At that time, anti herbivore defense was presumed to be the sole adaptive value for plants to make tannins, despite little evidence that they are effective.

Convoluted theories were created to explain why plant communities on highly infertile, acidic soils produced so much more tannin than plants on better soil, as somehow consistent with anti herbivore defense.

At that time, nobody considered how tannin production could benefit the plants that produce them through their impact on carbon and nitrogen cycling.

Tannins slow the decomposition of plant or soil organic matter they come into contact with. Tannins themselves are the substrate from which most soil humic acids are formed, having centuries long mean residence time in soil.

It is highly gratifying to see this finally reach the point where the application to address climate change is being so explicitly identified in the title of a new paper.

Most relevant posts are compiled beginning 2/3 down page 22.
01-06-2024 06:41
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
sealover wrote:
From the journal Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics volume 17 12893-12910

Your scripture is not science.
[b]sealover wrote:
"The 2015/2016 Artic winter was one of the coldest stratospheric winters in recent years."

It is not possible to measure the temperature of the global stratosphere. The stratosphere is not a season.
sealover wrote:
While surface temperatures were setting new records for the warmest years, the stratosphere was setting new records for coldest winters.

It is not possible to measure the global stratosphere.
sealover wrote:
When the stratosphere gets cold enough, tiny droplets of liquid nitric acid can freeze and fall toward the surface. This is called "denitrification".

Nitric acid is not nitrogen. What nitric acid?
sealover wrote:
Apparently there is no "unambiguous definition" for the term (making it a "buzzword"?), because "denitrification" ALSO means microbial nitrate reduction to form nitrogen gas, and by product nitrous oxide.

There is no chemical called 'nitrate'.
sealover wrote:
"Denitrification" in soil and water at the earth's surface is the largest source of nitrous oxide emitted to the atmosphere.

Nitrous oxide is not nitrogen.
sealover wrote:
As you note, nitrous oxide plays a role in the stratosphere.

With a very powerful oxidant such as ozone around, nitrous oxide can oxidize to form nitric acid, taking ozone out in the process.

You can't form nitric acid that way.
sealover wrote:
With stratospheric temperatures setting new records for COLD winters,

It is not possible to measure the global stratospheric temperature.
sealover wrote:
nitric acid gets more opportunities to freeze. Other ozone destroying agents get caught up in the nitric acid ice crystals as they form.

You cannot destroy the ozone layer, even if you wanted to. You are ignoring the Chapman cycle again.
sealover wrote:
By some accounts, THIS is what has enabled the ozone layer to recover.

You cannot destroy the ozone layer even if you wanted to. There is no 'recover'.
sealover wrote:
I encourage you to study up a bit on stratospheric denitrification, which happens when some of that nitric acid freezes.

Freezing is not a chemical reaction.
sealover wrote:
It might help you complete the puzzle you are working on

No, you are just lost again.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
01-06-2024 06:42
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
sealover wrote:
James_ wrote:
If my experiment shows that CO2 directly supports recovery of the ozone layer then carbon sequestration would need to be a reversible process. This is because if
ODSs are not reduced then where would gasses for the ozone layer come from?

quoting NOAA who is quoting the IPCC;
[quote]Carbon dioxide (CO2), nitrous oxide (N2O), and methane (CH4) are each important to climate forcing and to the levels of stratospheric ozone (see Chapter 2). In terms of the globally averaged ozone column, additional N2O leads to lower ozone levels, whereas additional CO2 and CH4 lead to higher ozone levels. Ozone depletion to date would have been greater if not for the historical increases in CO2 and CH4.



I cannot begin to make sense of how your assertion about CO2 as the cause of ozone depletion could be plausible.

There is no ozone depletion. There never was. It is not possible to destroy the ozone layer.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
01-06-2024 06:43
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
sealover wrote:
Top of this page, 2 posts down is a description of thread topic, with extensive
reference to tannins, as per this new paper

...

Stop spamming.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
01-06-2024 09:26
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14652)
sealover wrote: This paper was published April 10, 2024 B. Adamczyk. 2024. Tannins and climate change: Are tannins able to stabilize carbon in the soil?

You never answered the question: Is soil carbon somehow unstable?

sealover wrote: This paper cites my tannin investigations and is highly relevant to the topic of carbon sequestration in agroecosystems.

Not if carbon is already stable.
01-06-2024 10:25
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
IBdaMann wrote:
sealover wrote: This paper was published April 10, 2024 B. Adamczyk. 2024. Tannins and climate change: Are tannins able to stabilize carbon in the soil?

You never answered the question: Is soil carbon somehow unstable?

sealover wrote: This paper cites my tannin investigations and is highly relevant to the topic of carbon sequestration in agroecosystems.

Not if carbon is already stable.


I have no idea why Robert thinks carbon is somehow unstable. A very strange person.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
01-06-2024 19:55
Im a BM
★★★☆☆
(921)
IBdaMann wrote:
sealover wrote: This paper was published April 10, 2024 B. Adamczyk. 2024. Tannins and climate change: Are tannins able to stabilize carbon in the soil?

You never answered the question: Is soil carbon somehow unstable?

sealover wrote: This paper cites my tannin investigations and is highly relevant to the topic of carbon sequestration in agroecosystems.

Not if carbon is already stable.



The "question" was answered a hundred times.

Carbon is classified as "organic" or "inorganic", depending on its oxidation state.

Organic carbon, which we cannot discuss because it is a meaningless buzzword, is inherently unstable.

There is energy to be released as soon as it gets oxidized to inorganic carbon.

There is an atmosphere with 21% oxygen (despite the fact that "oxygen is an element"), a very powerful oxidant.

Heck, even without oxygen, there are plenty of organisms willing and able to oxidize the organic carbon in the soil to get the energy released, whether by fermentation, sulfate reduction, nitrate reduction, iron reduction, manganese reduction, etc.

Organic carbon is like a loaded gun in terms of its inherent instability. Even without an organism present to catalyze oxidation, just a spark will set off combustion if the organic carbon is dry enough.

One way to "stabilize" organic carbon in the soil is to have waterlogged conditions that prevent oxygen from being available to oxidize it, such as in a wetland. Soil organic carbon will accumulate over time.

Another way to stabilize organic carbon in the soil is for the plant to synthesize compounds that, one way or another, impede decomposition.

Tannins, also known as polyphenols, are the most important of such plant compounds produced as regulators of plant-litter-soil interactions.

I know! Let's play a stupid word game about the term "stable" or "stabilize".

Then issue the infallible decree that "There is no such thing as organic carbon".
02-06-2024 00:14
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
Im a BM wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
sealover wrote: This paper was published April 10, 2024 B. Adamczyk. 2024. Tannins and climate change: Are tannins able to stabilize carbon in the soil?

You never answered the question: Is soil carbon somehow unstable?

sealover wrote: This paper cites my tannin investigations and is highly relevant to the topic of carbon sequestration in agroecosystems.

Not if carbon is already stable.


The "question" was answered a hundred times.

Never was. Stop trying to make shit up.
Im a BM wrote:
Carbon is classified as "organic" or "inorganic", depending on its oxidation state.

Carbon is not organic.
Im a BM wrote:
Organic carbon,

Carbon is not organic.
Im a BM wrote:
which we cannot discuss because it is a meaningless buzzword, is inherently unstable.

Carbon is naturally stable.
Im a BM wrote:
There is energy to be released as soon as it gets oxidized to inorganic carbon.

Carbon is not organic. Carbon is not oxidized to carbon. Carbon is not oxygen.
Im a BM wrote:
There is an atmosphere with 21% oxygen (despite the fact that "oxygen is an element"), a very powerful oxidant.

Oxygen is not the atmosphere.
Im a BM wrote:
Heck, even without oxygen, there are plenty of organisms willing and able to oxidize the organic carbon

Carbon is not organize. Carbon is not oxidized to carbon. Carbon is not oxygen.
Im a BM wrote:
in the soil to get the energy released, whether by fermentation, sulfate reduction,

Sulfate is not a chemical.
Im a BM wrote:
nitrate reduction,

Nitrate is not a chemical.
Im a BM wrote:
iron reduction,

Iron cannot be reduced to iron.
Im a BM wrote:
manganese reduction,

Manganese cannot be reduced to manganese.
Im a BM wrote:
Organic carbon

Carbon is not organic.
Im a BM wrote:
is like a loaded gun in terms of its inherent instability.

Carbon is not an oxidizer or explosive (other than aerial dust conflagration in a closed container).
Im a BM wrote:
Even without an organism present to catalyze oxidation, just a spark will set off combustion if the organic carbon is dry enough.

Carbon is not organic. Combustion is not explosion.
Im a BM wrote:
One way to "stabilize" organic carbon in the soil

Carbon is naturally stable. Carbon is not organic.
Im a BM wrote:
is to have waterlogged conditions that prevent oxygen from being available to oxidize it, such as in a wetland.

Water contains oxygen.
Im a BM wrote:
Soil organic carbon will accumulate over time.

Carbon is not organic. You are now locked in paradox. You cannot claim that carbon is unstable and somehow accumulates over time at the same time.
Im a BM wrote:
Another way to stabilize organic carbon

Carbon is naturally stable. Carbon is not organic.
Im a BM wrote:
in the soil is for the plant to synthesize compounds that, one way or another, impede decomposition.

Tannins, also known as polyphenols, are the most important of such plant compounds produced as regulators of plant-litter-soil interactions.

Carbon is not photosynthesis. Tannins is not a chemical. Polyphenols is not a chemical
Im a BM wrote:
I know! Let's play a stupid word game about the term "stable" or "stabilize".

Why? Oh...you are ALREADY playing that word game.
Im a BM wrote:
Then issue the infallible decree that "There is no such thing as organic carbon".

Ignoring chemistry won't work. Carbon is not organic.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
06-06-2024 21:21
sealover
★★★★☆
(1681)
Into the Night wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
sealover wrote: This paper was published April 10, 2024 B. Adamczyk. 2024. Tannins and climate change: Are tannins able to stabilize carbon in the soil?

You never answered the question: Is soil carbon somehow unstable?

sealover wrote: This paper cites my tannin investigations and is highly relevant to the topic of carbon sequestration in agroecosystems.

Not if carbon is already stable.


I have no idea why Robert thinks carbon is somehow unstable. A very strange person.



RQAA.

But, I'll explain it again.

The authors of this paper cited me, but I did NOT author the paper.

Carbon is either organic or inorganic, depending on its oxidation state.

A WHOLE BUNCH of scientists think that organic carbon is not "stable".

INORGANIC carbon is very stable. Inorganic carbon is carbon dioxide, carbonate ion, and bicarbonate ion. More than half the carbon on Earth is in INORGANIC form. Fully oxidized, it will not release any chemical energy by changing oxidation state.

ORGANIC carbon is inherently UNSTABLE. Given ANY opportunity to oxidize, it will, and it will release energy in the process. In the presence of 21% atmospheric oxygen, it just takes a small spark to initiate combustion of organic carbon if it is dry enough. Organisms of all kinds want to exploit organic carbon as a source of metabolic energy. If they can't use oxygen, the best available oxidant, they will find another pathway to oxidize organic carbon.

Those who are not way too impaired can do a very simple search to learn what "organic carbon" is. Hint: It is NOT a "meaningless buzzword".

WATCH THIS SPACE

Probably within a week, another new peer-reviewed scientific paper will come out that cites my research and is directly relevant to discussion of climate change.

Possibly within a week, a new member will join the discussion, or an old member will decide to come back (among the 1700 missing in action) who wants to discuss real world science with a real world scientist.
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