Marxism, Climate and Utter Dishonesty

keepit wrote: Now tell us what you really think!

keepit wrote:
Printing dollars.
i remember silver certificates and i think there were gold certificates.

keepit wrote:
I think they said payable to the bearer on demand or some such.

keepit wrote:
In other words the govt is responsible for the dollars it issues as well as the treasuries it issues.

keepit wrote:
So there is an equivalence between the two. Such as E=MC2.

keepit wrote:
This means the govt can trade responsibility for dollars in exchange for responsibility for treasuries. Such as paying off the printed treasuries with printed dollars.

keepit wrote:
You can't do this at the breakfast table but the govt can do it.

keepit wrote:
"Printing dollars to pay off govt debt doesn't increase or decrease govt responsibility."

keepit wrote: It's all scar tissue.

keepit wrote:
ITN,
When those treasuries that are held in foreign countries come due the us is legally responsible to either redeem them for cash or sell more treasuries to raise the cash to pay off those other other treasuries.

keepit wrote:
I get it that it seems odd but the dollar could be heading for a problem.

keepit wrote:
I doubt there are many people in the world that want to see the dollar collapse.
Well, maybe there are a few countries that do.

keepit wrote:
We don't have 22 trillion dollars sitting in the Treasury bldg.

keepit wrote:I get it that it seems odd but the dollar could be heading for a problem.

HarveyH55 wrote:
Long time ago, they realized the national debt was a big problem, and created a 'debt-ceiling', the credit limit. Unfortunately, they keep raising it, and borrowing, and spending. They work out a budget, takes all year, government shutdown likely. Then, they spend as they please anyway.

HarveyH55 wrote:
Setting a great example to America's youth, on how to manage household finances. When you get into a rough spot, you don't cut back on the finer things, you just get more credit, use balance transfers and cash advances (fees added, of course). The more credit extended, and greater the debt, makes for a higher interest rate on additional credit, you need, just to keep up on minimum payments.

HarveyH55 wrote:
You can go debt consolidation, for a fee, less desirable interest rate, and a single, large monthly payment. But, at least you only have one collection agency hounding you, if you are late or default. There is always bankruptcy, might not forgive all your debt, and you might lose some stuff, your home, business.

HarveyH55 wrote:
I'd rather see all that climate change cash applied to paying off the national debt. Instead of wasting time on climate change, they should focus the same on resolving our debt problem, and ways to prevent it from getting out of hand again.

HarveyH55 wrote:
This would be a much better gift to our grandchildren.

keepit wrote:
.... Personally i don't think we're going to default.

HarveyH55 wrote:
The debt exceeded the point where we might have made some progress in paying it down, without seriously cutting back on services, a long time ago. Mostly, we run on credit, and have been squeezing it pretty hard for a long time. Creditors don't want anybody to default, minimum payments, slow payments, or even some effort to make a payment, is better than no payment at all. When the debt goes into default, they have very little chance of getting much, or anything more out of it. Most creditors aren't too upset, if they didn't actually lose investment money, just profit. The problem with a country making slow payments, is that it reduce confidence. It gets harder to borrow money, or get involved any business, where it's doesn't involve cash up front. Other counties are going to be a little reluctant to pay us in advance, since they can't be sure we can deliver, before spending their payments. We also lose preferred interest rates, and are just lucky to get a loan, regardless of terms.

The national debt is probably our biggest crisis, but it gets hidden behind all the other desperate 'needs' to keep spending more than we are taking in. Trump has got one thing right, we have to increase our nation revenue substantially, and cut back on wasteful spending, keep more of our business here in America. Everyday can't be expected to be a party, a celebration. Hardships are a part of living, and can never be completely erased by spending to avoid them. Companies fail, and will continue to fail, no matter how many times you bail them out. Sure, a lot of people will lose jobs, cities will feel the strain, maybe the whole state, in some cases. That bail out money would have been better spent on other business, or a new source of revenue, something else to prove jobs. Some people don't want to do any other type of work, or relocate to find other job opportunities. It was never the government's responsibility to cater to your personal wants and needs, only provide you the freedom to pursue them on your own. A business that fails, just opens an operatunity for someone else to come in and fill the gap. There are some rough times during the transition, either ride it out, and hope for the best, or relocate. A fun, problem free life, is expensive, somebody still picks up the tab, and the party has to end sometime.

keepit wrote:
If you assume the govt is going to default (i don't think so), and you owned treasuries, wouldn't you rather cash those treasuries in now than suffer a default. Personally i don't think we're going to default.

GasGuzzler wrote:

keepit wrote:
.... Personally i don't think we're going to default.

No? Have you seen this?

https://www.usdebtclock.org/

The scary one to me is the US unfunded liabilities. Rising at a rate of around a million dollars every 5 seconds. (bottom right)

That should make you choke on your Cheerios.

HarveyH55 wrote:
The debt exceeded the point where we might have made some progress in paying it down, without seriously cutting back on services, a long time ago. Mostly, we run on credit, and have been squeezing it pretty hard for a long time. Creditors don't want anybody to default, minimum payments, slow payments, or even some effort to make a payment, is better than no payment at all. When the debt goes into default, they have very little chance of getting much, or anything more out of it. Most creditors aren't too upset, if they didn't actually lose investment money, just profit. The problem with a country making slow payments, is that it reduce confidence. It gets harder to borrow money, or get involved any business, where it's doesn't involve cash up front. Other counties are going to be a little reluctant to pay us in advance, since they can't be sure we can deliver, before spending their payments. We also lose preferred interest rates, and are just lucky to get a loan, regardless of terms.

The national debt is probably our biggest crisis, but it gets hidden behind all the other desperate 'needs' to keep spending more than we are taking in. Trump has got one thing right, we have to increase our nation revenue substantially, and cut back on wasteful spending, keep more of our business here in America. Everyday can't be expected to be a party, a celebration. Hardships are a part of living, and can never be completely erased by spending to avoid them. Companies fail, and will continue to fail, no matter how many times you bail them out. Sure, a lot of people will lose jobs, cities will feel the strain, maybe the whole state, in some cases. That bail out money would have been better spent on other business, or a new source of revenue, something else to prove jobs. Some people don't want to do any other type of work, or relocate to find other job opportunities. It was never the government's responsibility to cater to your personal wants and needs, only provide you the freedom to pursue them on your own. A business that fails, just opens an operatunity for someone else to come in and fill the gap. There are some rough times during the transition, either ride it out, and hope for the best, or relocate. A fun, problem free life, is expensive, somebody still picks up the tab, and the party has to end sometime.

Into the Night wrote:

HarveyH55 wrote:
The debt exceeded the point where we might have made some progress in paying it down, without seriously cutting back on services, a long time ago. Mostly, we run on credit, and have been squeezing it pretty hard for a long time. Creditors don't want anybody to default, minimum payments, slow payments, or even some effort to make a payment, is better than no payment at all. When the debt goes into default, they have very little chance of getting much, or anything more out of it. Most creditors aren't too upset, if they didn't actually lose investment money, just profit. The problem with a country making slow payments, is that it reduce confidence. It gets harder to borrow money, or get involved any business, where it's doesn't involve cash up front. Other counties are going to be a little reluctant to pay us in advance, since they can't be sure we can deliver, before spending their payments. We also lose preferred interest rates, and are just lucky to get a loan, regardless of terms.

The national debt is probably our biggest crisis, but it gets hidden behind all the other desperate 'needs' to keep spending more than we are taking in. Trump has got one thing right, we have to increase our nation revenue substantially, and cut back on wasteful spending, keep more of our business here in America. Everyday can't be expected to be a party, a celebration. Hardships are a part of living, and can never be completely erased by spending to avoid them. Companies fail, and will continue to fail, no matter how many times you bail them out. Sure, a lot of people will lose jobs, cities will feel the strain, maybe the whole state, in some cases. That bail out money would have been better spent on other business, or a new source of revenue, something else to prove jobs. Some people don't want to do any other type of work, or relocate to find other job opportunities. It was never the government's responsibility to cater to your personal wants and needs, only provide you the freedom to pursue them on your own. A business that fails, just opens an operatunity for someone else to come in and fill the gap. There are some rough times during the transition, either ride it out, and hope for the best, or relocate. A fun, problem free life, is expensive, somebody still picks up the tab, and the party has to end sometime.

Which is why more and more people are looking to convert their dollars into gold, silver, diamonds, Bitcoin, etc.

keepit wrote: If you assume the govt is going to default (i don't think so), and you owned treasuries, wouldn't you rather cash those treasuries in now than suffer a default.

GasGuzzler wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

HarveyH55 wrote:
The debt exceeded the point where we might have made some progress in paying it down, without seriously cutting back on services, a long time ago. Mostly, we run on credit, and have been squeezing it pretty hard for a long time. Creditors don't want anybody to default, minimum payments, slow payments, or even some effort to make a payment, is better than no payment at all. When the debt goes into default, they have very little chance of getting much, or anything more out of it. Most creditors aren't too upset, if they didn't actually lose investment money, just profit. The problem with a country making slow payments, is that it reduce confidence. It gets harder to borrow money, or get involved any business, where it's doesn't involve cash up front. Other counties are going to be a little reluctant to pay us in advance, since they can't be sure we can deliver, before spending their payments. We also lose preferred interest rates, and are just lucky to get a loan, regardless of terms.

The national debt is probably our biggest crisis, but it gets hidden behind all the other desperate 'needs' to keep spending more than we are taking in. Trump has got one thing right, we have to increase our nation revenue substantially, and cut back on wasteful spending, keep more of our business here in America. Everyday can't be expected to be a party, a celebration. Hardships are a part of living, and can never be completely erased by spending to avoid them. Companies fail, and will continue to fail, no matter how many times you bail them out. Sure, a lot of people will lose jobs, cities will feel the strain, maybe the whole state, in some cases. That bail out money would have been better spent on other business, or a new source of revenue, something else to prove jobs. Some people don't want to do any other type of work, or relocate to find other job opportunities. It was never the government's responsibility to cater to your personal wants and needs, only provide you the freedom to pursue them on your own. A business that fails, just opens an operatunity for someone else to come in and fill the gap. There are some rough times during the transition, either ride it out, and hope for the best, or relocate. A fun, problem free life, is expensive, somebody still picks up the tab, and the party has to end sometime.

Which is why more and more people are looking to convert their dollars into gold, silver, diamonds, Bitcoin, etc.

In the event of total collapse, land with resources is better than all the diamonds in Africa.

IBdaMann wrote:

keepit wrote: If you assume the govt is going to default (i don't think so), and you owned treasuries, wouldn't you rather cash those treasuries in now than suffer a default.

This is a moderately complex issue.

If the country is, in fact, going to default, and you cash your T-bills just prior to the default, you will then have (relatively) worthless dollars instead of (relatively) worthless T-bills.

So your logical question is "if I have reason to speculate that the US government is about to default, can't I just cash my T-bills and exchange the dollars for another currency?"

At this point, Into the Night is correct that you would likely be better off just gambling at Vegas. Why? If you have reason to believe the US is going to default, then there is a world of others who know much more than you do who are already taking action (meaning the odds of your gambling are increasingly not in your favor). While the T-bills' value is dropping in value like a rock, the dollar's exchange rate with other currencies will also be in freefall such that if you cash out the T-bills and exchange for another currency, you are guaranteed to take it in the shorts whereas those who hold on to their T-bills and the government does NOT default are the winners when the exchange rate rebounds, i.e. your speculation does not translate into knowledge of the future outcome but your emotion (fear of loss) will certainly motivate you to rush to make very bad decisions based on a very incomplete big picture.

This is how the futures market works and why it's the most adrenaline-filled highest-stakes gambling the planet has to offer. If you'd like a chance at becoming a multi-millionaire before lunch and you don't think twice about risking total bankruptcy before you can finish your coffee, then the futures market might just be for you. Vegas can't compete. This is what you are in for when you decide to speculate on currecy futures (which is what you are describing when speculating about a US default). There is so much that is under the control of other people and institutions and governments that it will make you long for the simplicity of counting cards at the blackjack table.


.

keepit wrote:
This is just hypothetical because i don't think default is coming.
But if one did think so, he could cash in his treasuries and buy something valuable before the dollar collapses. Owning that something would be better than owning useless securities.

keepit wrote: But the currency isn't losing value. The dollar index is high and inflation is low.

keepit wrote: The case i presented is purely hypothetical.

keepit wrote: Gold is pretty inconvenient but some people will value it until the day they die. There is gold in cellphones. Matter of fact, the concentration of gold in cellphones is greater than the concentration of gold in most gold ore.

keepit wrote:
This is just hypothetical because i don't think default is coming.

keepit wrote:
But if one did think so, he could cash in his treasuries and buy something valuable before the dollar collapses.

keepit wrote:
Owning that something would be better than owning useless securities.

keepit wrote:
But the currency isn't losing value. The dollar index is high and inflation is low.
The case i presented is purely hypothetical.

HarveyH55 wrote:
Thing about money, or anything that represents wealth, like gold, is the value, in relation to the goods and services available, and needed. Gold isn't very valuable, if essentials are in high demand, like food, fuel, clean water, shelter, parts and materials. You can't eat your gold, nor anyone else. Your vehicle, generator, or any equipment runs on gold. Gold would be pretty much as worthless as paper, if nobody want or needs it, as badly as they need something essential to living. You would still find people willing to take your gold, but probably not give you the value you'd expect.

keepit wrote:
Gold is pretty inconvenient

keepit wrote:
but some people will value it until the day they die.

keepit wrote:
There is gold in cellphones.

keepit wrote:
Matter of fact, the concentration of gold in cellphones is greater than the concentration of gold in most gold ore.

Into the Night wrote:

HarveyH55 wrote:
Thing about money, or anything that represents wealth, like gold, is the value, in relation to the goods and services available, and needed. Gold isn't very valuable, if essentials are in high demand, like food, fuel, clean water, shelter, parts and materials. You can't eat your gold, nor anyone else. Your vehicle, generator, or any equipment runs on gold. Gold would be pretty much as worthless as paper, if nobody want or needs it, as badly as they need something essential to living. You would still find people willing to take your gold, but probably not give you the value you'd expect.

Kind of half the point.

Yes, people want things. They want to buy things. Food. Shelter. That new car. The supplies to do their job to make money. etc. That's what an economy is in the first place.

Gold is not an economy, it was and still is money.

So why did gold become money in the first place?

* It is easy to carry it.
* It is easy to show the purity of it.
* It is easy to to use it as a medium of exchange between things of value (It can act as a store of value).
* It is easy to weigh and verify it's purity, making it an easy way to act as a unit of account (you can set a price for a commodity with it. X ounces buys X goods).

spot wrote:
Marxism is a cipher for anyone who disagrees with ITN in this case

HarveyH55 wrote:

Into the Night wrote:
[quote]HarveyH55 wrote:
Thing about money, or anything that represents wealth, like gold, is the value, in relation to the goods and services available, and needed. Gold isn't very valuable, if essentials are in high demand, like food, fuel, clean water, shelter, parts and materials. You can't eat your gold, nor anyone else. Your vehicle, generator, or any equipment runs on gold. Gold would be pretty much as worthless as paper, if nobody want or needs it, as badly as they need something essential to living. You would still find people willing to take your gold, but probably not give you the value you'd expect.

Kind of half the point.

Yes, people want things. They want to buy things. Food. Shelter. That new car. The supplies to do their job to make money. etc. That's what an economy is in the first place.

Gold is not an economy, it was and still is money.

So why did gold become money in the first place?

* It is easy to carry it.
* It is easy to show the purity of it.
* It is easy to to use it as a medium of exchange between things of value (It can act as a store of value).
* It is easy to weigh and verify it's purity, making it an easy way to act as a unit of account (you can set a price for a commodity with it. X ounces buys X goods).

HarveyH55 wrote:
Money doesn't always carry a significant value, when there is a small supply, and a huge demand.

HarveyH55 wrote:
Suppose you had enough fresh water to get you and your family by, until the next shipment arrives, or it rains, but little to spare, since you don't know precisely when you can replenish.
Would you sell some of your water for gold?

HarveyH55 wrote:
Or be more inclined to trade for food?

HarveyH55 wrote:
If you do choose to sell something you really need, it's going to be for a high price.

HarveyH55 wrote:
Just like the people bringing in the goods, high demand, pretty much assures they can charge a high price.

HarveyH55 wrote:
The gold might get you in front of the line, since it's easier to transport, than trade goods.

HarveyH55 wrote:
But some of those trade goods, might fetch a better deal elsewhere.

spot wrote: Marxism is a cipher for anyone who disagrees with ITN in this case