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lawful money08-06-2024 04:11
keepit
★★★★★
(3286)
Apparently the dollar bills we use can be exchanged for lawful money. What do they mean for lawful money if not the dollar bills themselves?
Edited on 08-06-2024 05:03
08-06-2024 06:57
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14652)
keepit wrote: Apparently the dollar bills we use can be exchanged for lawful money. What do they mean for lawful money if not the dollar bills themselves?

The dollars are fiat currency. Lawful money is monetary value issued by the government, e.g. T-bills, gold and silver coins, etc.
08-06-2024 16:32
keepit
★★★★★
(3286)
ibd,
It sound as if you are acknowledging that t bills are money. I would say that when the govt pays off a t bill that t bill is no longer money or debt nor does it draw interest.
To pay it off you can print a new t bill or print money. I don't think of money as debt and it doesn't draw interest. It seems better to print money than to print treasuries. The money will get absorbed into a great big world economy. It's not clear that it will cause significant inflation. We need inflation (2%) anyway. It prevents depression.

I'm not so sure the govt will give you gold or silver for dollars any more. I'm not so sure they have enough gold and silver to cover all the money.

I'm extremely sorry for the companies that have gone out of business. I don't necessarily blame the govt though. I agree that high interest rates do cause businesses to fail. The fed doesn't have quite as much influence as they think though.
Edited on 08-06-2024 17:07
08-06-2024 22:41
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
keepit wrote:
ibd,
It sound as if you are acknowledging that t bills are money. I would say that when the govt pays off a t bill that t bill is no longer money or debt nor does it draw interest.
To pay it off you can print a new t bill or print money.

That's inflation, keepit.
keepit wrote:
I don't think of money as debt

It isn't debt, but it's a liability.
keepit wrote:
and it doesn't draw interest.

It isn't debt.
keepit wrote:
It seems better to print money than to print treasuries.

Inflation.
keepit wrote:
The money will get absorbed into a great big world economy.

No. Dollars are only accepted in the United States (and that may change!).
keepit wrote:
It's not clear that it will cause significant inflation.

It is clear.
keepit wrote:
We need inflation (2%) anyway.

Why?
keepit wrote:
It prevents depression.

What's wrong with depression of prices?
keepit wrote:
I'm not so sure the govt will give you gold or silver for dollars any more.

They don't have it. The dollar is not tied to any commodity. It is purely fiat.
keepit wrote:
I'm not so sure they have enough gold and silver to cover all the money.

Correct. They don't have it.
keepit wrote:
I'm extremely sorry for the companies that have gone out of business.

Blatant lie.
keepit wrote:
I don't necessarily blame the govt though.

I do. Democrats caused it.
keepit wrote:
I agree that high interest rates do cause businesses to fail.

You are not locked in another paradox, keepit. You cannot argue both sides of a paradox.
keepit wrote:
The fed doesn't have quite as much influence as they think though.

You are still locked in that paradox. You cannot argue both sides of a paradox. It's irrational.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
08-06-2024 23:38
keepit
★★★★★
(3286)
itn,
The dollar is accepted over most of the world.
09-06-2024 00:11
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14652)
keepit wrote: itn, is it possible yo need a better education?
[eyeroll]

keepit wrote:a dollar spent is several dollars worth of co2 produced.
[eyeroll]

keepit wrote: Stop nagging ibd.

Robert isn't really nagging me.

keepit wrote: ibd, It sound as if you are acknowledging that t bills are money.

If you could read, you'd realize that I differentiated between T-bills and money. I'd tell you to re-read what I wrote, but you can't re-read what you never read in the first place.

keepit wrote: I would say that when the govt pays off a t bill that t bill is no longer money

A T-bill is a loan (a liability) not money (an asset). We already know you are not an accountant.

keepit wrote:I don't think of money as debt and it doesn't draw interest.

Money is an asset, not debt (liability). Should you really be involved in this discussion?

keepit wrote: It seems better to print money than to print treasuries.

There is only one Treasury and it cannot be printed.

Money, however, can be printed.

keepit wrote: The money will get absorbed into a great big world economy.

... causing inflation (i.e. devaluation) of dollars.

keepit wrote: It's not clear that it will cause significant inflation.

Yes, it is clear.

keepit wrote: We need inflation (2%) anyway.

Who is this "we" who needs 2% inflation? I know I don't need it.

keepit wrote: It prevents depression.

We have already stipulated that you are not an economist so you can stop trying to convince us that you are not one.

keepit wrote: I'm not so sure the govt will give you gold or silver for dollars any more.

... but the government can.

keepit wrote: I'm extremely sorry for the companies that have gone out of business. I don't necessarily blame the govt though.

The government put MANY businesses out of business, so of course you won't blame the government.
09-06-2024 00:47
keepit
★★★★★
(3286)
just a bunch of argumentative baloney.
09-06-2024 00:56
Im a BM
★★★☆☆
(921)
Into the Night, ALONE, accounts for nearly 1/4 of ALL posts on this website.

How could he possibly NOT be a troll at this point?

Maybe because he offers so much insight into science related to climate change, as in THIS post.

Any new member who tries to say ANYTHING about the forbidden term "climate change" will get a LOT of response from ITN.

In this case, "response" is a polite way of saying "crap".



Into the Night wrote:
keepit wrote:
ibd,
It sound as if you are acknowledging that t bills are money. I would say that when the govt pays off a t bill that t bill is no longer money or debt nor does it draw interest.
To pay it off you can print a new t bill or print money.

That's inflation, keepit.
keepit wrote:
I don't think of money as debt

It isn't debt, but it's a liability.
keepit wrote:
and it doesn't draw interest.

It isn't debt.
keepit wrote:
It seems better to print money than to print treasuries.

Inflation.
keepit wrote:
The money will get absorbed into a great big world economy.

No. Dollars are only accepted in the United States (and that may change!).
keepit wrote:
It's not clear that it will cause significant inflation.

It is clear.
keepit wrote:
We need inflation (2%) anyway.

Why?
keepit wrote:
It prevents depression.

What's wrong with depression of prices?
keepit wrote:
I'm not so sure the govt will give you gold or silver for dollars any more.

They don't have it. The dollar is not tied to any commodity. It is purely fiat.
keepit wrote:
I'm not so sure they have enough gold and silver to cover all the money.

Correct. They don't have it.
keepit wrote:
I'm extremely sorry for the companies that have gone out of business.

Blatant lie.
keepit wrote:
I don't necessarily blame the govt though.

I do. Democrats caused it.
keepit wrote:
I agree that high interest rates do cause businesses to fail.

You are not locked in another paradox, keepit. You cannot argue both sides of a paradox.
keepit wrote:
The fed doesn't have quite as much influence as they think though.

You are still locked in that paradox. You cannot argue both sides of a paradox. It's irrational.
09-06-2024 01:22
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14652)
Im a BM wrote: Into the Night, ALONE, accounts for nearly 1/4 of ALL posts on this website. How could he possibly NOT be a troll at this point?

Maybe because he offers so much insight into science related to climate change, as in THIS post. Any new member who tries to say ANYTHING about the forbidden term "climate change" will get a LOT of response from ITN.

Is this a thread about lawful money or about Into the Night? I'm certain that the thread was about lawful money but that you derailed it.

Am I correct?
09-06-2024 09:35
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
keepit wrote:
itn,
The dollar is accepted over most of the world.

No, it isn't. It is only accepted in the United States.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
09-06-2024 09:36
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
IBdaMann wrote:
keepit wrote: itn, is it possible yo need a better education?
[eyeroll]

keepit wrote:a dollar spent is several dollars worth of co2 produced.
[eyeroll]

keepit wrote: Stop nagging ibd.

Robert isn't really nagging me.

keepit wrote: ibd, It sound as if you are acknowledging that t bills are money.

If you could read, you'd realize that I differentiated between T-bills and money. I'd tell you to re-read what I wrote, but you can't re-read what you never read in the first place.

keepit wrote: I would say that when the govt pays off a t bill that t bill is no longer money

A T-bill is a loan (a liability) not money (an asset). We already know you are not an accountant.

keepit wrote:I don't think of money as debt and it doesn't draw interest.

Money is an asset, not debt (liability). Should you really be involved in this discussion?

keepit wrote: It seems better to print money than to print treasuries.

There is only one Treasury and it cannot be printed.

Money, however, can be printed.

keepit wrote: The money will get absorbed into a great big world economy.

... causing inflation (i.e. devaluation) of dollars.

keepit wrote: It's not clear that it will cause significant inflation.

Yes, it is clear.

keepit wrote: We need inflation (2%) anyway.

Who is this "we" who needs 2% inflation? I know I don't need it.

keepit wrote: It prevents depression.

We have already stipulated that you are not an economist so you can stop trying to convince us that you are not one.

keepit wrote: I'm not so sure the govt will give you gold or silver for dollars any more.

... but the government can.

keepit wrote: I'm extremely sorry for the companies that have gone out of business. I don't necessarily blame the govt though.

The government put MANY businesses out of business, so of course you won't blame the government.

Fiat money is a liability on the issuing bank's books.
It is an asset in a business, but not at the Fed.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
09-06-2024 09:37
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
keepit wrote:
just a bunch of argumentative baloney.

Argument of the Stone fallacy.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
10-06-2024 04:22
keepit
★★★★★
(3286)
itn,
All those misconceptions won't fly. One of my best friends is a serious conservative and he has many misconceptions as well. I don't like to argue with him because it hurts his feelings.
Edited on 10-06-2024 04:23
10-06-2024 05:40
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
keepit wrote:
itn,
All those misconceptions won't fly. One of my best friends is a serious conservative and he has many misconceptions as well. I don't like to argue with him because it hurts his feelings.

It is YOU that doesn't understand what money is. You can't blame your problem on anybody else.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
10-06-2024 06:40
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14652)
Into the Night wrote: Fiat money is a liability on the issuing bank's books. It is an asset in a business, but not at the Fed.

It really doesn't matter what it is to the government. To We the People money is an asset.

Fiat money is different things to the government, depending on where it falls on the books, and the government lives in infamy for being unable to be audited.
10-06-2024 07:24
keepit
★★★★★
(3286)
I don't know what to say!
10-06-2024 19:15
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14652)
keepit wrote: I don't know what to say!

You did fine. You didn't make any sort of point. You didn't add anything coherent to the conversation. Your post was indistinguishable from a random phrase generator.

It was perfect. Well done.
10-06-2024 19:23
keepit
★★★★★
(3286)
ibd,
You and itn must be listening to different sources of econ info than i am.
I took an "on line" correspondence course a long time ago so i know the language.
I don't think you 2 know the language or much of any of the conventional economic info. Yet you argue incessantly. Do you get paid for it?
10-06-2024 19:27
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
IBdaMann wrote:
Into the Night wrote: Fiat money is a liability on the issuing bank's books. It is an asset in a business, but not at the Fed.

It really doesn't matter what it is to the government. To We the People money is an asset.

Fiat money is different things to the government, depending on where it falls on the books, and the government lives in infamy for being unable to be audited.

Since the discussion was about government and the issuing bank, that's rather significant, wouldn't you say?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
Edited on 10-06-2024 19:28
10-06-2024 19:30
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
keepit wrote:
ibd,
You and itn must be listening to different sources of econ info than i am.
I took an "on line" correspondence course a long time ago so i know the language.
I don't think you 2 know the language or much of any of the conventional economic info. Yet you argue incessantly. Do you get paid for it?

False authority fallacy.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
10-06-2024 19:41
keepit
★★★★★
(3286)
itn (often wrong, never in doubt),
What authority are you using to claim my authority is false?

By the way - the fed (us central bank) doesn't issue money, it loans money to banks who have to pay it back. The us Treasury issues money but it isn't a bank. At least i've never heard anyone seriously call it a bank.
Edited on 10-06-2024 19:44
10-06-2024 19:53
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14652)
Into the Night wrote:Since the discussion was about government and the issuing bank, that's rather significant, wouldn't you say?

We were originally discussing how government overprinting results in inflation which waters down the value of money and reduces our assets.

Of course, we were forced to revisit the idea of government printing to repay debt, examining whether those dollars just evaporate into nothing, so in that case, money to the government is like flux to the solderer, i.e. to be increased or decreased as needed to achieve the desired effect.
10-06-2024 20:16
keepit
★★★★★
(3286)
I thought we were talking about "fiat money" vs legal tender money (t bills etc).
Both are money and integral to the economic structure.
When Treasury issues a t bill it has to pay interest on it and pay back the principal.
When the Treasury issues dollars it doesn't have to pay any interest on it doesn't have to pay back the principal (dollar).
Which is better when the rest of the world has an appetite for king dollar?
King dollar is used by almost every country in the world for international trade in LARGE amounts.
Edited on 10-06-2024 20:18
10-06-2024 20:38
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14652)
keepit wrote: When Treasury issues a t bill it has to pay interest on it and pay back the principal.

Correct. When the Treasury takes out a loan, it has to pay the interest.

[quote]keepit wrote: When the Treasury issues dollars it doesn't have to pay any interest on it doesn't have to pay back the principal (dollar).
Correct. When the Treasury spends money, there is no principal to repay.
10-06-2024 20:58
keepit
★★★★★
(3286)
ibd,
Also, when the treasury issues dollars to pay off a t bill that t bill no longer exists. i.e. it is no longer any kind of liability.
10-06-2024 21:31
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
keepit wrote:
itn (often wrong, never in doubt),
What authority are you using to claim my authority is false?

Current law.
keepit wrote:
By the way - the fed (us central bank) doesn't issue money,

Yes it does.
keepit wrote:
it loans money to banks who have to pay it back.

Money is not a loan. Redefinition fallacy.
keepit wrote:
The us Treasury issues money but it isn't a bank.

A Treasury bill is not money. It's an IOU.
keepit wrote:
At least i've never heard anyone seriously call it a bank.

The Treasury department does not issue money and it is not a bank.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
10-06-2024 21:33
keepit
★★★★★
(3286)
itn (often wrong, never in doubt),
You're confused.
10-06-2024 21:43
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14652)
keepit wrote: ibd, Also, when the treasury issues dollars to pay off a t bill that t bill no longer exists. i.e. it is no longer any kind of liability.

You keep ignoring the other part, i.e. that there are now more dollars watering down the value of the currency.
Edited on 10-06-2024 21:43
10-06-2024 21:46
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
IBdaMann wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Since the discussion was about government and the issuing bank, that's rather significant, wouldn't you say?

We were originally discussing how government overprinting results in inflation which waters down the value of money and reduces our assets.

Which, of course, comes to discussing how the government (or the central bank) handles money on the books. Hence, my post.

Keepit seems to think that printing money does not impose a liability on the central bank, or that printing money with no corresponding increase in wealth is the direct cause of inflation.
IBdaMann wrote:
Of course, we were forced to revisit the idea of government printing to repay debt, examining whether those dollars just evaporate into nothing, so in that case, money to the government is like flux to the solderer, i.e. to be increased or decreased as needed to achieve the desired effect.

Since Keepit is suggesting a solution is to print money to cover the increasing government debt (along with expanding government), he is failing to take into the inflation that would cause. This is, unfortunately, is exactly what the government is doing!

The government is trapped into the spiral of higher prices just like anyone else. That means their expenses must increase, so they print MORE money (which is causing the problem!) to 'fix' it.

This spiral feeds on itself, until the money becomes so worthless it's not accepted as money anymore.

People will use something else for money, and no government can stop that. Indeed, governments often collapse during such events. Whole empires have been ruined in exactly this way.

The chaos of this kind of thing occurred in Germany, and is what allowed Hitler to come to power. It was the Treaty of Versailles that put Germany in this kind of economic bind.

Recently, June 6th, came and went...the anniversary of the D-Day invasion of France to remove the German occupation brought about by Hitler.

This stuff just doesn't happen in a vacuum, after all.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
10-06-2024 22:58
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
keepit wrote:
I thought we were talking about "fiat money" vs legal tender money (t bills etc).

Go read a dollar bill. T-bills are not money or legal tender.
keepit wrote:
Both are money and integral to the economic structure.

Economy is not a 'structure'. Redefinition fallacy.
keepit wrote:
When Treasury issues a t bill it has to pay interest on it and pay back the principal.

Because it's debt.
keepit wrote:
When the Treasury issues dollars

The Treasury does not issue dollars. The Fed does, under authority of Congress. Read a dollar bill again. It says, "Federal Reserve Note". It has no commodity backing of any kind. It's only value is based on faith.

That faith is waning. It is happening because the Fed is printing more and more money and there is no corresponding increase in wealth. The dollar therefore is losing value.

The dollar has been devalued by 34% since Biden was installed (Source: Federal Reserve).
keepit wrote:
it doesn't have to pay any interest on it doesn't have to pay back the principal (dollar).

Dollars are not debt. They ARE a liability to the Federal Reserve though.
keepit wrote:
Which is better when the rest of the world has an appetite for king dollar?

The US dollar is only accepted in the United States.
keepit wrote:
King dollar is used by almost every country in the world for international trade in LARGE amounts.

The US dollar is only accepted in the United States.

International trade is conducted using one of the two currencies of the two nations involved in international trade, then converted to the local currency. There IS a movement to returning to the use of gold to settle international trade. Several nations have already begun doing so. Again, such transactions are then converted into local currency.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
10-06-2024 22:59
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
keepit wrote:
ibd,
Also, when the treasury issues dollars to pay off a t bill that t bill no longer exists. i.e. it is no longer any kind of liability.

The Treasury doesn't issue dollars.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
10-06-2024 23:55
keepit
★★★★★
(3286)
So many misconceptions. Wishful thinking.

Don't forget, we're talking about the huge world economy, not just the us economy.
Edited on 10-06-2024 23:56
11-06-2024 04:30
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14652)
keepit wrote: So many misconceptions. Wishful thinking.

You're full of baloney keepit. Too many false statements.

keepit wrote: Don't forget, we're talking about the huge world economy, not just the us economy.

I don't think you know what you're talking about. Too much wishful thinking.
13-06-2024 05:50
keepit
★★★★★
(3286)
What do you think about using fiat money to pay off lawful money debts?
13-06-2024 07:56
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14652)
keepit wrote:What do you think about using fiat money to pay off lawful money debts?

That is how they are paid.
13-06-2024 08:05
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
keepit wrote:
So many misconceptions. Wishful thinking.

Don't forget, we're talking about the huge world economy, not just the us economy.

No. We are talking about the US economy, US money, and US debt.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
13-06-2024 08:06
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
keepit wrote:
What do you think about using fiat money to pay off lawful money debts?

Both he and I already answered that question. RQAA. Inflation.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
13-06-2024 08:07
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
IBdaMann wrote:
keepit wrote:What do you think about using fiat money to pay off lawful money debts?

That is how they are paid.

But just printing money to pay them isn't the answer, obviously.

Unfortunately, the US is already broke. There is no way out now.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
13-06-2024 16:18
keepit
★★★★★
(3286)
i'm talking about the world economy itn. The more us dollars get out there the more the world likes them.
Maybe the world economy will absorb those dollars.
Inflation is better than default. i think. Not sure though.
Edited on 13-06-2024 16:22
14-06-2024 00:56
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22183)
keepit wrote:
i'm talking about the world economy itn. The more us dollars get out there the more the world likes them.
Maybe the world economy will absorb those dollars.
Inflation is better than default. i think. Not sure though.

No. We are talking about the US economy, US money, and US debt.

US Dollars are only accepted in the United States.
Inflation leads to default.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
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