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Hybrid cars vs electric cars



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08-09-2019 10:42
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
tmiddles wrote:
keepit wrote:
energy can be put into a hand held battery and taken into the house and the battery can be used to run the house


Cool idea

There's an interesting doc on batteries. Everything from cell phone batteries that can't catch on fire to batteries the size of cargo containers.

Lithium-Ion batteries can catch fire if they are shorted. It is a class A fire. It can be put out with water. Caution should be used since it is a hot fire. Lithium metal batteries are much worse. If they catch fire, it is a class D fire and can only be put out with lots of sand. Fortunately, lithium metal batteries are not rechargeable and are not in common use.

tmiddles wrote:
Nova
Search for the Super Battery
2017 ‧
Amazon prime


All batteries are based on dissimilar metals and an electrolyte to restore the work function electron level of each metal. Larger battery plates allow more current to flow through the battery, but that is limited by the speed of the electrolyte chemistry, which is the major factor in the internal resistance of the battery.

This internal resistance governs the total available discharge current, and the allowable charging rate.

Since the electrolyte chemistry is about moving heavy ions around, there is always a significant internal resistance.

Batteries with the lowest internal resistance so far is the lead-acid battery, since the electrolyte is fairly lightweight dilute sulfuric acid. Lithium-ion batteries also have a fairly low internal resistance, but not as low as the good ole' lead acid battery.

A low internal resistance means more discharge current is available, but it also means the battery will catch fire if too much current is drawn from the battery.

Common alkaline batteries have a high internal resistance, so they cannot provide a lot of current, but they won't catch fire. The battery is still destroyed however, due to the case rupturing and electrolyte salting out of the battery (that white stuff you see on battery terminals when a battery has been left in a device too long).

To lower internal resistance, you need a lightweight electrolyte. So far, lead-acid leads the pack, followed by lithium-ion (the rechargeable kind you see in cell phones), and nickel-cadmium batteries (which uses a fairly lightweight oxidizer for the electrolyte).

If weight is the issue, the lithium-ion battery comes out the best, making it ideal for small portable devices like cellphones, and for electric cars (which use massive battery banks, and weight MUST be minimized to gain efficiency).

If cost or sheer power is the biggest factor, the lead-acid battery comes out as the best choice. This is why you see them running things like forklifts and why they make such great starter motor batteries. These batteries are cheaper too. They are also easier to recycle.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 08-09-2019 10:47
08-09-2019 22:04
HarveyH55
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(1482)
A few notes... While a Li-ion fire, could technically be put out with water, it's seldom the case in practice. The heat generated, is often sufficient to rupture adjacent cells, which, unless completely submerged, will get enough oxygen to ignite, generating more heat... A car battery, and a garden hose isn't going to help much. Even takes the fire department a while, to dump enough water on them, to cool it off enough. Remember reading about a Tesla re-igniting in a salvage yard.

The internal resistance of my drone batteries is 8-12 milli-ohms, not really an accurate measurement, since the cables probably add a little too, not to mention calibration, and environmental considerations. My charger just has the feature, to spit out some numbers. I know that when it gets into the high 20s, it's time to retire the pack, but probably would have notice a slight swell by then...

Should be interesting to see what happens. People don't want their cars hooked up to a charger for hours. Fast charging degrades batteries, few cycles/shorter life. But most consumers don't care, faster is better. I baby my drone batteries, $75 each. A cell phone battery is $20 or less, no big deal. A new electric car battery is $2000+... There was an article on Hack-A-Day, yesterday, about salvaging cells from A Tesla model 3 battery. Looks like it kind of sucks. The cells are glued together with some sort of thermal adhesive. The dude was using a hammer and chisel, and it wasn't going to well. Take a year or two at that pace. Too much work for me, think I'd gather up some chunks of adhesive, and experiment with heat and chemicals, see if there is something less labor intensive.

Oh, Ni-Cd batteries? What's wrong with you? Cadmium is killing the environment quicker than man-made CO2. Just kidding, but NiMh are better than Ni-Cd, and usually don't go dead and useless if left setting neglected, for months at a time. Been converting some old cordless tools, for which the Ni-Cd batteries wouldn't charge, new batteries are more than buying a whole new Li-ion version of the tool. Rebuilding the pack is expensive too, $40-50, just for the cells. Anyway, I 3d printed an adapter for something, but made it fit a cordless jigsaw I really liked, and it now runs off the same B&D 20V batteries, as my string trimmer and leaf blower. Going to do the same for a cordless reciprocating saw. Already have the Li-ion version, but the older one is better quality. Great for storm clean up, so a spare wouldn't be a bad thing.
08-09-2019 23:13
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
HarveyH55 wrote:
A few notes... While a Li-ion fire, could technically be put out with water, it's seldom the case in practice.

No, it's easy in practice. I've done it myself a couple of times.
HarveyH55 wrote:
The heat generated, is often sufficient to rupture adjacent cells, which, unless completely submerged, will get enough oxygen to ignite, generating more heat...

No need to submerge it.
HarveyH55 wrote:
A car battery, and a garden hose isn't going to help much.

True, that won't! A lead acid battery is a very different kind of animal! You really have to treat a lead acid battery fire as a class C fire.
HarveyH55 wrote:
Even takes the fire department a while, to dump enough water on them, to cool it off enough.

Water is the worst thing to use in a class C fire. Use carbon dioxide or chemical.
HarveyH55 wrote:
Remember reading about a Tesla re-igniting in a salvage yard.

Heh. Not quite dead, eh?

HarveyH55 wrote:
The internal resistance of my drone batteries is 8-12 milli-ohms, not really an accurate measurement,

Sounds about right for that size and type of battery.
HarveyH55 wrote:
since the cables probably add a little too, not to mention calibration, and environmental considerations.

The cables are short enough to be ignored, and I assume environmental conditions were around room or daytime temperatures. Calibration is actually pretty good for your average VOM.
HarveyH55 wrote:
My charger just has the feature, to spit out some numbers. I know that when it gets into the high 20s, it's time to retire the pack, but probably would have notice a slight swell by then...

Heh. I've seen these packs wrapped around a metal poll and they still work! (model helicopter accident!) The little buggers are tougher than they look!
HarveyH55 wrote:
Should be interesting to see what happens. People don't want their cars hooked up to a charger for hours.

Not really much a choice for electric cars.
HarveyH55 wrote:
Fast charging degrades batteries, few cycles/shorter life.

Still takes hours, and going faster (assuming you had that much current available) destroys the batteries outright.
HarveyH55 wrote:
But most consumers don't care, faster is better.

Until their car catches fire!
HarveyH55 wrote:
I baby my drone batteries, $75 each.

They should give you long service life.
HarveyH55 wrote:
A cell phone battery is $20 or less, no big deal.

Heh. People drop their cell phones overboard at sea, run over them with their cars, drop them into alligator nests, drop them down the stairs, even accidentally microwave them! I don't long lasting batteries are much of an issue!

HarveyH55 wrote:
A new electric car battery is $2000+...

It handles a lot heftier current too, both discharging and in charging.
HarveyH55 wrote:
There was an article on Hack-A-Day, yesterday, about salvaging cells from A Tesla model 3 battery. Looks like it kind of sucks. The cells are glued together with some sort of thermal adhesive. The dude was using a hammer and chisel, and it wasn't going to well. Take a year or two at that pace. Too much work for me, think I'd gather up some chunks of adhesive, and experiment with heat and chemicals, see if there is something less labor intensive.

And all he gets is a mostly dead Li-ion battery. Whoopie.
HarveyH55 wrote:
Oh, Ni-Cd batteries? What's wrong with you?

Nothing! Does the noise in my head bother you?

HarveyH55 wrote:
Cadmium is killing the environment quicker than man-made CO2. Just kidding, but NiMh are better than Ni-Cd, and usually don't go dead and useless if left setting neglected, for months at a time.

Yup. Ni-cad is old technology. There are still a few devices that use them though! Nicads either die of old age (as you describe), or by too rapid charging or discharging, which opens the vents in the battery (to keep it from blowing up). That kills the battery when that happens. It lets the electrolyte out.
HarveyH55 wrote:
Been converting some old cordless tools, for which the Ni-Cd batteries wouldn't charge, new batteries are more than buying a whole new Li-ion version of the tool.

True! Is amazing how cheaply people stamp out these tools now! Capitalism in action!
HarveyH55 wrote:
Rebuilding the pack is expensive too, $40-50, just for the cells.

Because they must be matched. A tedious (and expensive) job.
HarveyH55 wrote:
Anyway, I 3d printed an adapter for something, but made it fit a cordless jigsaw I really liked, and it now runs off the same B&D 20V batteries, as my string trimmer and leaf blower.

Aren't 3d printers great? Good for you!
HarveyH55 wrote:
Going to do the same for a cordless reciprocating saw. Already have the Li-ion version, but the older one is better quality. Great for storm clean up, so a spare wouldn't be a bad thing.

Sounds you are getting some good use for your 3d printer!


The Parrot Killer
09-09-2019 11:00
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1399)
IBdaMann wrote:It simply isn't a problem. It isn't a bad thing. CO2 is a life-essential compound.

It's a specious argument to claim CO2 is essential therefore nothing could go wrong.

Example: phosphorus and nitrogen are fantastic for the growth and livelihood of algae
Get too much too fast and you upset the ecosystem of a lake with an algea bloom full of death and destruction (for fish)

that an ecosystem can be badly damaged even by having a change take place too rapidly is well established.

But I know you're always preaching like the cop at an accident "Nothing to see here folks, move along now, nothing to see".
09-09-2019 12:58
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1399)
Into the Night wrote:
Lithium-Ion batteries can catch fire
Oh yes they can! You should check out that doc there is tons of video. But one company invented a battery you can cut with metal scissors, doesn't short and keeps working.
09-09-2019 14:50
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5032)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:It simply isn't a problem. It isn't a bad thing. CO2 is a life-essential compound.

It's a specious argument to claim CO2 is essential therefore nothing could go wrong.

Who is claiming that nothing could go ever go wrong? Perhaps a paintballer's CO2 tank might rupture. There are many possibilities.

However, the guaranteed benefit of additional CO2 to global plant life is well worth the negligible possibility of a negligible negative impact.

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
09-09-2019 17:13
HarveyH55
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(1482)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:It simply isn't a problem. It isn't a bad thing. CO2 is a life-essential compound.

It's a specious argument to claim CO2 is essential therefore nothing could go wrong.

Example: phosphorus and nitrogen are fantastic for the growth and livelihood of algae
Get too much too fast and you upset the ecosystem of a lake with an algea bloom full of death and destruction (for fish)

that an ecosystem can be badly damaged even by having a change take place too rapidly is well established.

But I know you're always preaching like the cop at an accident "Nothing to see here folks, move along now, nothing to see".


There were algae blooms long before commercial fertilizers. We've had them around Florida for a long time. Not sure when they started calling it 'Red Tide'. Some years have been worse than others, but I don't think it's been in increasing trend. Not all algae is toxic either.

You do realize there are other ways to look at a problem. Have you considered it's not the fertilizer, but what usually keeps algae growth in check? Some fish and animals feed on algae. In freshwater, they introduced snails into an algae choked lake, once. Worked great, for a while, but the algae ran out, the snails reproduce, since there wasn't much in the way of predators, and the snails ate everything green. They didn't stay confined to the lake either, as the food ran low, they traveled.

The point is that, most people only see part of an issue, and want to rush in, get some federal grant money, and solve that part. They didn't see the full picture, or that their quick-fix, was actually going to cause a bigger problem down the road, which is going to take a bigger band-aid, to quick-fix. An ecosystem is a balance, people usually do more harm, trying to fix a problem, that doesn't really exist. Nature works slowly for a reason, there are no quick-fixes, or instant gratifications.

Algae blooms can also be caused by over fishing, or the decline of other species that consume or compete with it. Humans do cause a few temporary problems here and there. And other humans will jump on everything, call it a man made problem, and demand it be fixed immediately, causing much greater damage, than the original issue. Most of the time, it's just better to let nature take it's course, in it's own, slow moving time. It's been doing a great job, a lot longer than we have been messing things up.
09-09-2019 19:49
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:It simply isn't a problem. It isn't a bad thing. CO2 is a life-essential compound.

It's a specious argument to claim CO2 is essential therefore nothing could go wrong.

Vacuous statement. Void argument fallacy.
tmiddles wrote:
Example: phosphorus and nitrogen are fantastic for the growth and livelihood of algae

Not all algae. Compositional error fallacy.
tmiddles wrote:
Get too much too fast and you upset the ecosystem of a lake with an algea bloom full of death

Not all algae is toxic. Compositional error fallacy.
tmiddles wrote:and destruction (for fish)

Not all algae kills fish. Compositional error fallacy.
tmiddles wrote:
that an ecosystem can be badly damaged even by having a change take place too rapidly is well established.

Void argument fallacy.
tmiddles wrote:
But I know you're always preaching like the cop at an accident "Nothing to see here folks, move along now, nothing to see".

False equivalence fallacy (void<->algea, algea<->CO2).


The Parrot Killer
09-09-2019 22:23
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1399)
Into the Night wrote:
Not all algae is toxic.

You just don't pay attention ITN, go learn about Algae Blooms
I was making the appointment that ibd's assertion that more of a good thing has to be good is entirely specious. Algae is great fish love it they eat it it's food it's not toxic at all. Algae bloom results in too much algae and upset the ecosystem
09-09-2019 22:25
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1399)
HarveyH55 wrote:
...introduced snails into an algae choked lake, once. Worked great, for a while, but the algae ran out, the snails reproduce, ...An ecosystem is a balance, people usually do more harm, trying to fix a problem, that doesn't really exist.


Reminds me of the long series of disasters they had in Australia introducing things that didn't belong. Well put that an ecosystem is easy to mess up. I agree!
09-09-2019 22:32
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Not all algae is toxic.

You just don't pay attention ITN, go learn about Algae Blooms

Inversion fallacy.
tmiddles wrote:
I was making the appointment that ibd's assertion that more of a good thing has to be good is entirely specious.

Specious argument. Compositional error fallacy. Void argument fallacy.
tmiddles wrote:
Algae is great fish love it they eat it it's food it's not toxic at all.

They'll eat it whether it's toxic or not.
tmiddles wrote:
Algae bloom results in too much algae

Who are you to decide what is 'too much algae'? What is 'normal'? Void argument fallacy. Tinpot dictator mindset.
tmiddles wrote:
and upset the ecosystem

Who are you to decide what is a 'normal' ecosystem? Who are you to decide whether a particular ecosystem is a stable one? Who are you to decide if that is good or bad?

Tinpot dictator mindset.


The Parrot Killer
09-09-2019 22:33
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
...introduced snails into an algae choked lake, once. Worked great, for a while, but the algae ran out, the snails reproduce, ...An ecosystem is a balance, people usually do more harm, trying to fix a problem, that doesn't really exist.


Reminds me of the long series of disasters they had in Australia introducing things that didn't belong. Well put that an ecosystem is easy to mess up. I agree!


Void argument fallacy. What is 'messed up'? What "doesn't belong there"?


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 09-09-2019 22:33
10-09-2019 06:05
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1399)
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
...Reminds me of the long series of disasters they had in Australia introducing things that didn't belong. Well put that an ecosystem is easy to mess up. I agree!
What is 'messed up'? What "doesn't belong there"?

Pretty much a sh1t show down there with things that didn't belong (as in they had developed in another part of the world). I'm guessing you know Kudzu here in the US.

Rabbits...soon covering about two thirds of Australia. They competed for pasture more efficiently than sheep...

They also introduced european Mice: Mouse Madness!

Eco-systems can be messed up by plenty of things that aren't "poison".
10-09-2019 07:27
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
...Reminds me of the long series of disasters they had in Australia introducing things that didn't belong. Well put that an ecosystem is easy to mess up. I agree!
What is 'messed up'? What "doesn't belong there"?

Pretty much a sh1t show down there with things that didn't belong (as in they had developed in another part of the world). I'm guessing you know Kudzu here in the US.

Yes, I am familiar with kudzu (not a proper noun). It is a particularly aggressive vine that was brought in to act as a ground cover during the dust bowl days. It worked.

Of course, the vine itself can be a pest. It has been known to grow over a foot in a single day. It is the only vine I know that will grow out into an active roadway...and cross it. Even the crocs avoid it.

The stuff can be hard to eradicate, but it can be done.

We also have an aggressive vine here in the Northwest in the form of blackberry. It too can be hard to eradicate, but it is not as aggressive as kudzu.

tmiddles wrote:
Rabbits...soon covering about two thirds of Australia. They competed for pasture more efficiently than sheep...

Rabbits are native to Australia, particularly jackrabbits. You know, you could go out and just shoot 'em. They can be good eating, if prepared properly.
tmiddles wrote:
They also introduced european Mice: Mouse Madness!

They also introduced European people.
tmiddles wrote:
Eco-systems can be messed up by plenty of things that aren't "poison".

Eco-systems are not static. Who are you to decide what is 'normal'? You are not a dictator.


The Parrot Killer
10-09-2019 07:39
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1399)
Into the Night wrote:
Rabbits are native to Australia, particularly jackrabbits
Ah, nope. "Rabbits are not native to Australia"

Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Eco-systems can be messed up by plenty of things that aren't "poison".
Eco-systems are not static. Who are you to decide what is 'normal'? You are not a dictator.

I will forgo a dictionary visit on "normal". A wise species will manage it's ecosystem for it's own benefit. We are such a species.
10-09-2019 07:55
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Rabbits are native to Australia, particularly jackrabbits
Ah, nope. "Rabbits are not native to Australia"
Yes they are. As much as any critter there.
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Eco-systems can be messed up by plenty of things that aren't "poison".
Eco-systems are not static. Who are you to decide what is 'normal'? You are not a dictator.

I will forgo a dictionary visit on "normal". A wise species will manage it's ecosystem for it's own benefit. We are such a species.

Heh. Sometimes we get bit by that! Also, we don't really manage any eco-system. It just happens, as they say.


The Parrot Killer
10-09-2019 08:34
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1399)
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:Ah, nope. "Rabbits are not native to Australia"
Yes they are. As much as any critter there.
Once again making up your own definition for things? Where do you think rabbits came from genius? Spawned from God with the fur on?

One more nugget of ITN disagreeing with a basic fact.

Hey IBD you wanna say rabbits are native to Australia too?

Into the Night wrote:we don't really manage any eco-system. It just happens, as they say.

You and IBD are devoted to the movement of we can know nothing and we should do nothing so that's consistent. Tell the sheep herders in Australia that.
10-09-2019 17:04
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1482)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:Ah, nope. "Rabbits are not native to Australia"
Yes they are. As much as any critter there.
Once again making up your own definition for things? Where do you think rabbits came from genius? Spawned from God with the fur on?

One more nugget of ITN disagreeing with a basic fact.

Hey IBD you wanna say rabbits are native to Australia too?

Into the Night wrote:we don't really manage any eco-system. It just happens, as they say.

You and IBD are devoted to the movement of we can know nothing and we should do nothing so that's consistent. Tell the sheep herders in Australia that.


I don't think sheep are native either, nor cattle, horses, cane frogs, or white people. Not sure, but rats, mice, and roaches are also likely imports as well, since white people like traveling with the some much, felt a need to share them with everybody else they visited.

But, many species migrate on their own, don't always get to reproduce though. They occasionally hitch a ride, and settle in though, and it takes a while for an ecosystem to adjust to a new species in the area. With the rabbit example, the same predictors that would have kept that population in check, are considered a pest by the sheep herders, and 'controlled', to protect the sheep. It's the way of many invasive species, the things that would have limited their spread and population, are considered undesirable, and removed/limited. Leave the ecosystem alone, and it will eventual find a balance, the timeline is inconvenient, very slow. That's the problem with democrats, no patience, everything has to be fixed. and fixed right now, regardless of the cost (or price tag). We end up doing more damage with the quick fixes, than the original issue, which generally wasn't a big problem, needing attention in the first place, like global warming...
10-09-2019 18:55
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
HarveyH55 wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:Ah, nope. "Rabbits are not native to Australia"
Yes they are. As much as any critter there.
Once again making up your own definition for things? Where do you think rabbits came from genius? Spawned from God with the fur on?

One more nugget of ITN disagreeing with a basic fact.

Hey IBD you wanna say rabbits are native to Australia too?

Into the Night wrote:we don't really manage any eco-system. It just happens, as they say.

You and IBD are devoted to the movement of we can know nothing and we should do nothing so that's consistent. Tell the sheep herders in Australia that.


I don't think sheep are native either, nor cattle, horses, cane frogs, or white people. Not sure, but rats, mice, and roaches are also likely imports as well, since white people like traveling with the some much, felt a need to share them with everybody else they visited.

But, many species migrate on their own, don't always get to reproduce though. They occasionally hitch a ride, and settle in though, and it takes a while for an ecosystem to adjust to a new species in the area. With the rabbit example, the same predictors that would have kept that population in check, are considered a pest by the sheep herders, and 'controlled', to protect the sheep. It's the way of many invasive species, the things that would have limited their spread and population, are considered undesirable, and removed/limited. Leave the ecosystem alone, and it will eventual find a balance, the timeline is inconvenient, very slow. That's the problem with democrats, no patience, everything has to be fixed. and fixed right now, regardless of the cost (or price tag). We end up doing more damage with the quick fixes, than the original issue, which generally wasn't a big problem, needing attention in the first place, like global warming...


Even every kangaroo, wombat, or any other 'indigenous' critter had to come from somewhere...unless you believe they just sprung out of the ground as God has made them.

Unfortunately, Australia didn't exist at the time of creation. That was before the Great Flood, which change the face of the whole Earth (assuming you believe in the stories of the Bible).


The Parrot Killer
11-09-2019 12:49
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1399)
Into the Night wrote:Even every kangaroo, wombat, or any other 'indigenous' critter had to come from somewhere
It sounds like you don't have a very solid grasp of how an ecosystem works. When something isn't "native" it means it hasn't been around, adapted to and been adapted to. If you just throw it in the mix it can really mess things up. Rabbits are NOT native to Australia even by your own strange explanation. You are wrong, again.
11-09-2019 19:23
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Even every kangaroo, wombat, or any other 'indigenous' critter had to come from somewhere
It sounds like you don't have a very solid grasp of how an ecosystem works.

There is no ecosystem. It's another meaningless buzzword. The flora and fauna that are in a place like Australia all came from somewhere else.
tmiddles wrote:
When something isn't "native" it means it hasn't been around, adapted to and been adapted to.

That would result in nothing being native then.
tmiddles wrote:
If you just throw it in the mix it can really mess things up.

It can. It doesn't have to.
tmiddles wrote:
Rabbits are NOT native to Australia even by your own strange explanation. You are wrong, again.

Yes they are.


The Parrot Killer
11-09-2019 19:43
HarveyH55
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(1482)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Even every kangaroo, wombat, or any other 'indigenous' critter had to come from somewhere
It sounds like you don't have a very solid grasp of how an ecosystem works. When something isn't "native" it means it hasn't been around, adapted to and been adapted to. If you just throw it in the mix it can really mess things up. Rabbits are NOT native to Australia even by your own strange explanation. You are wrong, again.


Ecosystems are in constant change. It's a man-made description, so open to interpretation. An ecosystem is a collection of living things, doesn't matter how the all came together, just how they work together. If left alone, they will find a natural balance. Islands are unique, in that there are limits to which species migrate to them, and which ones can leave, to find a more desirable conditions. Islands tend to stay balanced and stable for a long time. White people, like to wander, just because they can, not some much out a need to do so, and have become part of every ecosystem on the planet. An ecosystem is incredibly complex. Australia had a bunch of new species introduced, when us white people move there. We brought all the usual livestock, our favorite farm plants, and all the little critters that went a long for the ride. It wasn't just the introduction of all the new species of plants, animals, and insects, but also, they killed of a lot of the indigenous species, that threaten the farms and livestock, or were just plain annoying, as white people tended to do. Some of those species became endangered, but don't recall any being totally wiped out. The ecosystem would be fine, with all the new resident, except there are tight controls on the predictor populations. I'm not sure why the Australians don't use rabbit for food, it's similar to chicken, though probably not real safe, considering the poisons used to control other rodents...

You do understand that it isn't the new species introduced, it's man's interference of the ecosystem, that slows the balance. There are always things added or removed from an ecosystem, naturally, and there is a period of adjustment to those changes. Nothing lives for ever, and some get cut short, do to natural causes, suddenly. Natural, or man-made, there is always something to change the balance, and takes time to restore. Man fiddling around, just makes it take longer, because we don't know what we are doing. We only focus on one aspect at a time. A botanist, will work to preserve the precious plants, and not be happy with the animals and insects feeding on them. A zoologist will focus mainly on the animals, and care less about the other life, other than as a food source, which doesn't work out well for a botanist. But, there is so much other life going on, each contributes to finding a balance.
11-09-2019 22:13
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
HarveyH55 wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Even every kangaroo, wombat, or any other 'indigenous' critter had to come from somewhere
It sounds like you don't have a very solid grasp of how an ecosystem works. When something isn't "native" it means it hasn't been around, adapted to and been adapted to. If you just throw it in the mix it can really mess things up. Rabbits are NOT native to Australia even by your own strange explanation. You are wrong, again.


Ecosystems are in constant change. It's a man-made description, so open to interpretation. An ecosystem is a collection of living things, doesn't matter how the all came together, just how they work together. If left alone, they will find a natural balance. Islands are unique, in that there are limits to which species migrate to them, and which ones can leave, to find a more desirable conditions. Islands tend to stay balanced and stable for a long time. White people, like to wander, just because they can, not some much out a need to do so, and have become part of every ecosystem on the planet. An ecosystem is incredibly complex. Australia had a bunch of new species introduced, when us white people move there. We brought all the usual livestock, our favorite farm plants, and all the little critters that went a long for the ride. It wasn't just the introduction of all the new species of plants, animals, and insects, but also, they killed of a lot of the indigenous species, that threaten the farms and livestock, or were just plain annoying, as white people tended to do. Some of those species became endangered, but don't recall any being totally wiped out. The ecosystem would be fine, with all the new resident, except there are tight controls on the predictor populations. I'm not sure why the Australians don't use rabbit for food, it's similar to chicken, though probably not real safe, considering the poisons used to control other rodents...

You do understand that it isn't the new species introduced, it's man's interference of the ecosystem, that slows the balance. There are always things added or removed from an ecosystem, naturally, and there is a period of adjustment to those changes. Nothing lives for ever, and some get cut short, do to natural causes, suddenly. Natural, or man-made, there is always something to change the balance, and takes time to restore. Man fiddling around, just makes it take longer, because we don't know what we are doing. We only focus on one aspect at a time. A botanist, will work to preserve the precious plants, and not be happy with the animals and insects feeding on them. A zoologist will focus mainly on the animals, and care less about the other life, other than as a food source, which doesn't work out well for a botanist. But, there is so much other life going on, each contributes to finding a balance.


It's safe to eat rabbits you kill. Just check 'em for tularemia, an easy check. Rabbits that are poisoned are already dead.


The Parrot Killer
12-09-2019 00:27
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1482)
Rodent poison is messy business, takes a while sometimes. No tel how much was injected, or which kind. You might not get a lethal dose from eat a rabbit or two, but it can add up over time. Poisoned rats have plenty of time to find a well hidden, hard to get to place, before the die, mostly, so the can be a pest for a couple weeks, if you don't find the source of the odor. Cats do the same thing, just easier to find, and get to. One of the bad points of a wood frame house on blocks...

https://www.wftv.com/news/local/longwood-woman-bitten-by-bear-after-letting-dog-outside-police-say/984863238

This story seems to fit... Woman let her dog run the 'hood', late at night, didn't say, but everything hints at the dog being off the leash, and one of those small, noisy breeds. The whole neighborhood, even the lady bitten, knew about the mother and cubs in the area. Most people know that if you mess with a cub, mamma is going to do bad things. The lady and dog got off easy. Little skeptical she even had contact with the bear, could have gotten scratch running, or part of her trip and fall. Any how, when the catch mamma bear, they plan to put here down, and save the cubs (zoo? circus?, person pets?). Obviously without a mom, they aren't going to be good candidates to be released into the wild.
12-09-2019 00:42
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Rodent poison is messy business, takes a while sometimes. No tel how much was injected, or which kind. You might not get a lethal dose from eat a rabbit or two, but it can add up over time. Poisoned rats have plenty of time to find a well hidden, hard to get to place, before the die, mostly, so the can be a pest for a couple weeks, if you don't find the source of the odor. Cats do the same thing, just easier to find, and get to. One of the bad points of a wood frame house on blocks...

https://www.wftv.com/news/local/longwood-woman-bitten-by-bear-after-letting-dog-outside-police-say/984863238

This story seems to fit... Woman let her dog run the 'hood', late at night, didn't say, but everything hints at the dog being off the leash, and one of those small, noisy breeds. The whole neighborhood, even the lady bitten, knew about the mother and cubs in the area. Most people know that if you mess with a cub, mamma is going to do bad things. The lady and dog got off easy. Little skeptical she even had contact with the bear, could have gotten scratch running, or part of her trip and fall. Any how, when the catch mamma bear, they plan to put here down, and save the cubs (zoo? circus?, person pets?). Obviously without a mom, they aren't going to be good candidates to be released into the wild.


Rabbits are wild. They are all over Australia. Only a few get poisoned, and those tend to happen near ranchers that know they are trying to poison them. Such ranchers might accidentally poison something else they want to keep, too.

Rabbits are okay to eat. When you check 'em for Tularemia, you will also see poison damage.
Reject the rabbit if you see either. At least it's still dead.


The Parrot Killer
12-09-2019 01:43
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5032)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Even every kangaroo, wombat, or any other 'indigenous' critter had to come from somewhere
It sounds like you don't have a very solid grasp of how an ecosystem works. When something isn't "native" it means it hasn't been around, adapted to and been adapted to. If you just throw it in the mix it can really mess things up. Rabbits are NOT native to Australia even by your own strange explanation. You are wrong, again.

He's not wrong, nor are you. You are both making different points.

What you refer to as an "ecosystem" is just a (your) notional partition of environments. You are addressing the topic of species traversing into disparate environments, and yes, that can certainly have huge ramifications as perceived by humans. I too learned about rabbits in Australia as the classic example of this, followed by the Asian carp in southeast USA.

Into the Night correctly points out that all species are natural to the planet, which has no environmental partition lines. Species travel/migrate all the time. There is nothing unusual or unnatural about that, even if a large distance is involved or if humans are factors in the movement.


.


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