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How the Jet Stream Influences the Weather



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How the Jet Stream Influences the Weather15-11-2020 23:35
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
Here in the US, the weather will be changing. I'm mentioning this because recently I posted the the 48 contiguous states in the US had 2 or 3 decades of no warming.
When that happened, it's possible that cool air from the Siberia/Kamchatka region was warmed by the Pacific Ocean. This could have kept temperatures over land stable. With global warming, it would need to show where other areas over land warmed enough to compensate for that.
If the jet stream went up through British Columbia, Canada and came down into the US through Montana then it would clear the Rocky Mountains. At the same time it might draw arctic air down into the US.
This is where checking to see if there is a hold in the stratospheric ozone layer above the arctic might be worthwhile. If there is one, it could be well formed which would keep the cold arctic air in the arctic.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pattern-flip-warm-east-coast-202845169.html


This is where countries in the lower southern hemisphere might be a little warmer in some places because the tropical jet stream might move warm equatorial heat (air) south. It's like when Australia had so many brush fires, what had their tropical jet stream been doing?
Edited on 15-11-2020 23:39
16-11-2020 19:34
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1392)
Watch out for the Norwegian Jet Stream though!!!
16-11-2020 20:37
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
gfm7175 wrote:
Watch out for the Norwegian Jet Stream though!!!



And yet 1 in 12 people in Wisconsin probably are part Norwegian. And since you live there, you might be one of them.
17-11-2020 00:12
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13984)
James___ wrote:
Here in the US, the weather will be changing. I'm mentioning this because recently I posted the the 48 contiguous states in the US had 2 or 3 decades of no warming.
When that happened, it's possible that cool air from the Siberia/Kamchatka region was warmed by the Pacific Ocean. This could have kept temperatures over land stable. With global warming, it would need to show where other areas over land warmed enough to compensate for that.
If the jet stream went up through British Columbia, Canada and came down into the US through Montana then it would clear the Rocky Mountains. At the same time it might draw arctic air down into the US.
This is where checking to see if there is a hold in the stratospheric ozone layer above the arctic might be worthwhile. If there is one, it could be well formed which would keep the cold arctic air in the arctic.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pattern-flip-warm-east-coast-202845169.html


This is where countries in the lower southern hemisphere might be a little warmer in some places because the tropical jet stream might move warm equatorial heat (air) south. It's like when Australia had so many brush fires, what had their tropical jet stream been doing?

Ozone does not trap thermal energy, heat, or reduce entropy.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
17-11-2020 02:18
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
Into the Night wrote:
James___ wrote:
Here in the US, the weather will be changing. I'm mentioning this because recently I posted the the 48 contiguous states in the US had 2 or 3 decades of no warming.
When that happened, it's possible that cool air from the Siberia/Kamchatka region was warmed by the Pacific Ocean. This could have kept temperatures over land stable. With global warming, it would need to show where other areas over land warmed enough to compensate for that.
If the jet stream went up through British Columbia, Canada and came down into the US through Montana then it would clear the Rocky Mountains. At the same time it might draw arctic air down into the US.
This is where checking to see if there is a hold in the stratospheric ozone layer above the arctic might be worthwhile. If there is one, it could be well formed which would keep the cold arctic air in the arctic.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pattern-flip-warm-east-coast-202845169.html


This is where countries in the lower southern hemisphere might be a little warmer in some places because the tropical jet stream might move warm equatorial heat (air) south. It's like when Australia had so many brush fires, what had their tropical jet stream been doing?

Ozone does not trap thermal energy, heat, or reduce entropy.



You are correct.
17-11-2020 02:25
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2753)
How could anyone think Ozone could trap anything, with that big damn hole over Norway?
17-11-2020 03:08
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
HarveyH55 wrote:
How could anyone think Ozone could trap anything, with that big damn hole over Norway?



I'm, you called it. There's a significant hole in the ozone layer above Scandinavia and Finland.
It has actually split into 2 parts and then merged again. Now that those Floridian cyclones have done their thing, it'll warn up again.


https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/monthly/NH.html
17-11-2020 16:19
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1392)
There is nothing to worry about regarding the ozone layer...
17-11-2020 16:57
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
gfm7175 wrote:
There is nothing to worry about regarding the ozone layer...



I see it as opportunity. This is where you are caught up in the debate.
To define heat for you, it is the conserved electromagnetic energy that is released when 2 molecules collide. This is because that release of conserved energy allows for a "flow" of the energy being released by those molecules.
Heat is the result of cause and effect, ie., it is the effect of 2 molecules (the cause) colliding.
17-11-2020 18:34
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13984)
James___ wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
There is nothing to worry about regarding the ozone layer...



I see it as opportunity. This is where you are caught up in the debate.

Ozone is not an opportunity. It simply is. The 'hole' is not an opportunity. It simply is. None of it affects global temperatures. No gas or vapor is capable of warming the Earth. You can't create energy out of nothing.
James___ wrote:
To define heat for you, it is the conserved electromagnetic energy

Nope. Heat is the flow of thermal energy. It is not electromagnetic energy.
James___ wrote:
that is released when 2 molecules collide.
This is because that release of conserved energy allows for a "flow" of the energy being released by those molecules.
Heat is the result of cause and effect, ie., it is the effect of 2 molecules (the cause) colliding.

Molecular collision is not heat or temperature.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
17-11-2020 18:49
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
Into the Night wrote:
James___ wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
There is nothing to worry about regarding the ozone layer...



I see it as opportunity. This is where you are caught up in the debate.

Ozone is not an opportunity. It simply is. The 'hole' is not an opportunity. It simply is. None of it affects global temperatures. No gas or vapor is capable of warming the Earth. You can't create energy out of nothing.
James___ wrote:
To define heat for you, it is the conserved electromagnetic energy

Nope. Heat is the flow of thermal energy. It is not electromagnetic energy.
James___ wrote:
that is released when 2 molecules collide.
This is because that release of conserved energy allows for a "flow" of the energy being released by those molecules.
Heat is the result of cause and effect, ie., it is the effect of 2 molecules (the cause) colliding.

Molecular collision is not heat or temperature.



Some people get "hot" over molecular collisions. All of that friction from a back and forth motion really "heats" things "up".
17-11-2020 20:55
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
@All, the previous post can be considered more than one way. It is how the reader infers it that gives it meaning.
17-11-2020 22:09
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13984)
James___ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
James___ wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
There is nothing to worry about regarding the ozone layer...



I see it as opportunity. This is where you are caught up in the debate.

Ozone is not an opportunity. It simply is. The 'hole' is not an opportunity. It simply is. None of it affects global temperatures. No gas or vapor is capable of warming the Earth. You can't create energy out of nothing.
James___ wrote:
To define heat for you, it is the conserved electromagnetic energy

Nope. Heat is the flow of thermal energy. It is not electromagnetic energy.
James___ wrote:
that is released when 2 molecules collide.
This is because that release of conserved energy allows for a "flow" of the energy being released by those molecules.
Heat is the result of cause and effect, ie., it is the effect of 2 molecules (the cause) colliding.

Molecular collision is not heat or temperature.



Some people get "hot" over molecular collisions. All of that friction from a back and forth motion really "heats" things "up".

What friction?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
17-11-2020 22:21
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1392)
James___ wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
There is nothing to worry about regarding the ozone layer...



I see it as opportunity.

The ozone layer is not an opportunity; neither is an ozone hole. Those things just simply are.

James___ wrote:
This is where you are caught up in the debate.
To define heat for you, it is the conserved electromagnetic energy that is released when 2 molecules collide. This is because that release of conserved energy allows for a "flow" of the energy being released by those molecules.
Heat is the result of cause and effect, ie., it is the effect of 2 molecules (the cause) colliding.

No, heat is simply the flow of thermal energy. It is not electromagnetic energy.
18-11-2020 03:32
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
gfm7175 wrote:
James___ wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
There is nothing to worry about regarding the ozone layer...



I see it as opportunity.

The ozone layer is not an opportunity; neither is an ozone hole. Those things just simply are.

James___ wrote:
This is where you are caught up in the debate.
To define heat for you, it is the conserved electromagnetic energy that is released when 2 molecules collide. This is because that release of conserved energy allows for a "flow" of the energy being released by those molecules.
Heat is the result of cause and effect, ie., it is the effect of 2 molecules (the cause) colliding.

No, heat is simply the flow of thermal energy. It is not electromagnetic energy.



When you and ITN post like that, with assuredness, you remind me of the IPCC.
18-11-2020 05:05
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13984)
James___ wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
James___ wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
There is nothing to worry about regarding the ozone layer...



I see it as opportunity.

The ozone layer is not an opportunity; neither is an ozone hole. Those things just simply are.

James___ wrote:
This is where you are caught up in the debate.
To define heat for you, it is the conserved electromagnetic energy that is released when 2 molecules collide. This is because that release of conserved energy allows for a "flow" of the energy being released by those molecules.
Heat is the result of cause and effect, ie., it is the effect of 2 molecules (the cause) colliding.

No, heat is simply the flow of thermal energy. It is not electromagnetic energy.



When you and ITN post like that, with assuredness, you remind me of the IPCC.


No, the IPCC likes to redefine 'heat' at their convenience to the point of it being meaningless.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
18-11-2020 07:05
Spongy Iris
★★☆☆☆
(311)
James___ wrote:
Here in the US, the weather will be changing. I'm mentioning this because recently I posted the the 48 contiguous states in the US had 2 or 3 decades of no warming.
When that happened, it's possible that cool air from the Siberia/Kamchatka region was warmed by the Pacific Ocean. This could have kept temperatures over land stable. With global warming, it would need to show where other areas over land warmed enough to compensate for that.
If the jet stream went up through British Columbia, Canada and came down into the US through Montana then it would clear the Rocky Mountains. At the same time it might draw arctic air down into the US.
This is where checking to see if there is a hold in the stratospheric ozone layer above the arctic might be worthwhile. If there is one, it could be well formed which would keep the cold arctic air in the arctic.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pattern-flip-warm-east-coast-202845169.html


This is where countries in the lower southern hemisphere might be a little warmer in some places because the tropical jet stream might move warm equatorial heat (air) south. It's like when Australia had so many brush fires, what had their tropical jet stream been doing?


What's up James!

What are the 2 or 3 decades in the states you refer to? The latest decades just past?

Are you saying because the Arctic was warmer, it pushed Arctic air further south past 2 or 3 decades, keeping the states cool?


And now are you saying a hole in the ozone in the Arctic will keep more Arctic air moving further north (not pushing further south)? How so?

I'm wondering, does ozone prevent clouds from reaching higher altitudes? Seems like much of the cloud cover stops where the ozone production begins...
18-11-2020 07:59
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
Spongy Iris wrote:
James___ wrote:
Here in the US, the weather will be changing. I'm mentioning this because recently I posted the the 48 contiguous states in the US had 2 or 3 decades of no warming.
When that happened, it's possible that cool air from the Siberia/Kamchatka region was warmed by the Pacific Ocean. This could have kept temperatures over land stable. With global warming, it would need to show where other areas over land warmed enough to compensate for that.
If the jet stream went up through British Columbia, Canada and came down into the US through Montana then it would clear the Rocky Mountains. At the same time it might draw arctic air down into the US.
This is where checking to see if there is a hold in the stratospheric ozone layer above the arctic might be worthwhile. If there is one, it could be well formed which would keep the cold arctic air in the arctic.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pattern-flip-warm-east-coast-202845169.html


This is where countries in the lower southern hemisphere might be a little warmer in some places because the tropical jet stream might move warm equatorial heat (air) south. It's like when Australia had so many brush fires, what had their tropical jet stream been doing?


What's up James!

What are the 2 or 3 decades in the states you refer to? The latest decades just past?

Are you saying because the Arctic was warmer, it pushed Arctic air further south past 2 or 3 decades, keeping the states cool?


And now are you saying a hole in the ozone in the Arctic will keep more Arctic air moving further north (not pushing further south)? How so?

I'm wondering, does ozone prevent clouds from reaching higher altitudes? Seems like much of the cloud cover stops where the ozone production begins...



With the website I saw, it wasn't associated with climate change yet was a US government website. What helps to control the weather in the US is where the jet stream is coming from. If over a period of a couple of decades, if it consistently enters British Columbia, Canada before moving over the US, it will bring cool air with it.
In considering"global average temperature", I'm not sure where but someone once posted a really good link to it. This is because if it's not warming in the US, it is more so somewhere else. To give you an idea, https://claudiocassardo.wordpress.com/2013/01/23/very-low-minima-north-atlantic/
When atmospheric pressure changes, so does the temperature. And with the Earth, it pretty much has a global average barometric pressure. This is why if the jet stream stays somewhat parallel to the 49th parallel, it will create a high pressure system below it by drawing warm air from south of the US up into the US. This will affect the trade winds which can warm or cool countries. And add a change in barometric pressure as well.
With the hole in the ozone layer above the arctic, ozone helps to warm the lower stratosphere. This warming effect might be what helps the polar jet stream to be more flexible. And with it cooler, it seems to keep the polar jet stream more centered around it.
With cloud cover, it's usually around either the polar or tropical jet streams that tropospheric gasses (we live in the troposphere) mix with the stratosphere. The tropopause which is between the troposphere and the stratosphere acts as a barrier.
When you see clouds way up in the sky that are flat on top, it's because the tropopause isn't letting them rise any higher.
Edited on 18-11-2020 08:07
18-11-2020 08:24
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
If you scroll down to winter and summer polar jet streams, for the last couple of months the jet stream has basically followed it's summer path.

https://climate.ncsu.edu/edu/JetStream#:~:text=The%20two%20jet%20streams%20that,and%20the%20warm%20equatorial%20air.
18-11-2020 12:51
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(751)
Interesting James.Another factor to try to consider when the claim of warming is made
18-11-2020 20:15
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
duncan61 wrote:
Interesting James.Another factor to try to consider when the claim of warming is made



Thanks D!
18-11-2020 22:53
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13984)
Spongy Iris wrote:
James___ wrote:
Here in the US, the weather will be changing. I'm mentioning this because recently I posted the the 48 contiguous states in the US had 2 or 3 decades of no warming.
When that happened, it's possible that cool air from the Siberia/Kamchatka region was warmed by the Pacific Ocean. This could have kept temperatures over land stable. With global warming, it would need to show where other areas over land warmed enough to compensate for that.
If the jet stream went up through British Columbia, Canada and came down into the US through Montana then it would clear the Rocky Mountains. At the same time it might draw arctic air down into the US.
This is where checking to see if there is a hold in the stratospheric ozone layer above the arctic might be worthwhile. If there is one, it could be well formed which would keep the cold arctic air in the arctic.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pattern-flip-warm-east-coast-202845169.html


This is where countries in the lower southern hemisphere might be a little warmer in some places because the tropical jet stream might move warm equatorial heat (air) south. It's like when Australia had so many brush fires, what had their tropical jet stream been doing?


What's up James!

What are the 2 or 3 decades in the states you refer to? The latest decades just past?

Are you saying because the Arctic was warmer, it pushed Arctic air further south past 2 or 3 decades, keeping the states cool?


And now are you saying a hole in the ozone in the Arctic will keep more Arctic air moving further north (not pushing further south)? How so?

He is in paradox.
Spongy Iris wrote:
I'm wondering, does ozone prevent clouds from reaching higher altitudes? Seems like much of the cloud cover stops where the ozone production begins...

Not because of the presence of ozone. Because of the temperature inversion in the stratosphere.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
18-11-2020 22:55
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13984)
James___ wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
James___ wrote:
Here in the US, the weather will be changing. I'm mentioning this because recently I posted the the 48 contiguous states in the US had 2 or 3 decades of no warming.
When that happened, it's possible that cool air from the Siberia/Kamchatka region was warmed by the Pacific Ocean. This could have kept temperatures over land stable. With global warming, it would need to show where other areas over land warmed enough to compensate for that.
If the jet stream went up through British Columbia, Canada and came down into the US through Montana then it would clear the Rocky Mountains. At the same time it might draw arctic air down into the US.
This is where checking to see if there is a hold in the stratospheric ozone layer above the arctic might be worthwhile. If there is one, it could be well formed which would keep the cold arctic air in the arctic.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pattern-flip-warm-east-coast-202845169.html


This is where countries in the lower southern hemisphere might be a little warmer in some places because the tropical jet stream might move warm equatorial heat (air) south. It's like when Australia had so many brush fires, what had their tropical jet stream been doing?


What's up James!

What are the 2 or 3 decades in the states you refer to? The latest decades just past?

Are you saying because the Arctic was warmer, it pushed Arctic air further south past 2 or 3 decades, keeping the states cool?


And now are you saying a hole in the ozone in the Arctic will keep more Arctic air moving further north (not pushing further south)? How so?

I'm wondering, does ozone prevent clouds from reaching higher altitudes? Seems like much of the cloud cover stops where the ozone production begins...



With the website I saw, it wasn't associated with climate change yet was a US government website. What helps to control the weather in the US is where the jet stream is coming from. If over a period of a couple of decades, if it consistently enters British Columbia, Canada before moving over the US, it will bring cool air with it.
In considering"global average temperature", I'm not sure where but someone once posted a really good link to it. This is because if it's not warming in the US, it is more so somewhere else. To give you an idea, https://claudiocassardo.wordpress.com/2013/01/23/very-low-minima-north-atlantic/
When atmospheric pressure changes, so does the temperature. And with the Earth, it pretty much has a global average barometric pressure. This is why if the jet stream stays somewhat parallel to the 49th parallel, it will create a high pressure system below it by drawing warm air from south of the US up into the US. This will affect the trade winds which can warm or cool countries. And add a change in barometric pressure as well.
With the hole in the ozone layer above the arctic, ozone helps to warm the lower stratosphere. This warming effect might be what helps the polar jet stream to be more flexible. And with it cooler, it seems to keep the polar jet stream more centered around it.
With cloud cover, it's usually around either the polar or tropical jet streams that tropospheric gasses (we live in the troposphere) mix with the stratosphere. The tropopause which is between the troposphere and the stratosphere acts as a barrier.
When you see clouds way up in the sky that are flat on top, it's because the tropopause isn't letting them rise any higher.


Ozone does not affect the jet stream or trade winds. Neither does the lack of it.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
18-11-2020 22:55
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13984)
James___ wrote:
If you scroll down to winter and summer polar jet streams, for the last couple of months the jet stream has basically followed it's summer path.

https://climate.ncsu.edu/edu/JetStream#:~:text=The%20two%20jet%20streams%20that,and%20the%20warm%20equatorial%20air.


The last couple of months was the end of summer, James.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
19-11-2020 12:31
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
Into the Night wrote:
James___ wrote:
If you scroll down to winter and summer polar jet streams, for the last couple of months the jet stream has basically followed it's summer path.

https://climate.ncsu.edu/edu/JetStream#:~:text=The%20two%20jet%20streams%20that,and%20the%20warm%20equatorial%20air.


The last couple of months was the end of summer, James.



You are wrong Parrot. You missed that in Octoberr that it became the fall. This is like twilight in Seattle or other cities in the northern latitudes. Then again, you live in the "Evergreen" state. Most people will not know that that's a Double Entendre.
19-11-2020 18:37
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13984)
James___ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
James___ wrote:
If you scroll down to winter and summer polar jet streams, for the last couple of months the jet stream has basically followed it's summer path.

https://climate.ncsu.edu/edu/JetStream#:~:text=The%20two%20jet%20streams%20that,and%20the%20warm%20equatorial%20air.


The last couple of months was the end of summer, James.



You are wrong Parrot. You missed that in Octoberr that it became the fall. This is like twilight in Seattle or other cities in the northern latitudes. Then again, you live in the "Evergreen" state. Most people will not know that that's a Double Entendre.

October isn't two months ago, dumbass.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
19-11-2020 20:27
Spongy Iris
★★☆☆☆
(311)
James___ wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
James___ wrote:
Here in the US, the weather will be changing. I'm mentioning this because recently I posted the the 48 contiguous states in the US had 2 or 3 decades of no warming.
When that happened, it's possible that cool air from the Siberia/Kamchatka region was warmed by the Pacific Ocean. This could have kept temperatures over land stable. With global warming, it would need to show where other areas over land warmed enough to compensate for that.
If the jet stream went up through British Columbia, Canada and came down into the US through Montana then it would clear the Rocky Mountains. At the same time it might draw arctic air down into the US.
This is where checking to see if there is a hold in the stratospheric ozone layer above the arctic might be worthwhile. If there is one, it could be well formed which would keep the cold arctic air in the arctic.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pattern-flip-warm-east-coast-202845169.html


This is where countries in the lower southern hemisphere might be a little warmer in some places because the tropical jet stream might move warm equatorial heat (air) south. It's like when Australia had so many brush fires, what had their tropical jet stream been doing?


What's up James!

What are the 2 or 3 decades in the states you refer to? The latest decades just past?

Are you saying because the Arctic was warmer, it pushed Arctic air further south past 2 or 3 decades, keeping the states cool?


And now are you saying a hole in the ozone in the Arctic will keep more Arctic air moving further north (not pushing further south)? How so?

I'm wondering, does ozone prevent clouds from reaching higher altitudes? Seems like much of the cloud cover stops where the ozone production begins...



With the website I saw, it wasn't associated with climate change yet was a US government website. What helps to control the weather in the US is where the jet stream is coming from. If over a period of a couple of decades, if it consistently enters British Columbia, Canada before moving over the US, it will bring cool air with it.
In considering"global average temperature", I'm not sure where but someone once posted a really good link to it. This is because if it's not warming in the US, it is more so somewhere else. To give you an idea, https://claudiocassardo.wordpress.com/2013/01/23/very-low-minima-north-atlantic/
When atmospheric pressure changes, so does the temperature. And with the Earth, it pretty much has a global average barometric pressure. This is why if the jet stream stays somewhat parallel to the 49th parallel, it will create a high pressure system below it by drawing warm air from south of the US up into the US. This will affect the trade winds which can warm or cool countries. And add a change in barometric pressure as well.
With the hole in the ozone layer above the arctic, ozone helps to warm the lower stratosphere. This warming effect might be what helps the polar jet stream to be more flexible. And with it cooler, it seems to keep the polar jet stream more centered around it.
With cloud cover, it's usually around either the polar or tropical jet streams that tropospheric gasses (we live in the troposphere) mix with the stratosphere. The tropopause which is between the troposphere and the stratosphere acts as a barrier.
When you see clouds way up in the sky that are flat on top, it's because the tropopause isn't letting them rise any higher.


You said ozone helps to warm the lower stratosphere. Isn't it the kinetic energy from the production of ozone that which increases temperature of the lower stratosphere?

It seems there was an unprecedented hole in the ozone layer that opened up in the Arctic in Apr 2020, but it apparently healed itself? Not sure...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/09/fact-check-unprecedented-arctic-ozone-hole-has-healed-itself/5321422002/

Is it just heat and temperature that blocks most clouds from forming past tropopause? (the reason you see clouds with flat tops)
19-11-2020 20:37
Spongy Iris
★★☆☆☆
(311)
James___ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
James___ wrote:
If you scroll down to winter and summer polar jet streams, for the last couple of months the jet stream has basically followed it's summer path.

https://climate.ncsu.edu/edu/JetStream#:~:text=The%20two%20jet%20streams%20that,and%20the%20warm%20equatorial%20air.


The last couple of months was the end of summer, James.



You are wrong Parrot. You missed that in Octoberr that it became the fall. This is like twilight in Seattle or other cities in the northern latitudes. Then again, you live in the "Evergreen" state. Most people will not know that that's a Double Entendre.


https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1251369-kermit-the-frog

I suppose we can forgive The Parrot for thinking summer extended to mid November this year. The hot weather definitely lasted very much longer on the west coast in 2020. We had plenty of + 90 F days in October this year by Mount Diablo.
19-11-2020 21:17
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13984)
Spongy Iris wrote:
...deleted usual nonsense from James...
You said ozone helps to warm the lower stratosphere. Isn't it the kinetic energy from the production of ozone that which increases temperature of the lower stratosphere?

Producing ozone lowers surrounding air temperature. Converting oxygen to ozone is and endothermic reaction. UV-B sunlight can create ozone from oxygen. That reaction takes place in lower stratosphere, cooling it.

Spongy Iris wrote:
It seems there was an unprecedented hole in the ozone layer that opened up in the Arctic in Apr 2020, but it apparently healed itself? Not sure...
...deleted Holy Link...

A 'hole' opens at each pole during that pole's winter. It is the Sun acting on oxygen that produces ozone. As long as you have sunlight and oxygen, you WILL have ozone. Winter at a pole means there is no sunlight. So, no ozone being produced.

Ozone is an unstable molecule. It will decay back to oxygen on it's own. UV-C light coming from the Sun can also decay ozone back to oxygen. That's an exothermic reaction, and takes place near the top of the stratosphere, warming it.

Spongy Iris wrote:
Is it just heat and temperature that blocks most clouds from forming

Heat has no temperature. Temperature is a measure of average thermal energy (not total energy). A temperature inversion exists in the stratosphere. Hot air rises from the surface, and as it cools, may form clouds. That air no longer rises in the stratosphere, since it now cooler than the air above it.
Spongy Iris wrote:
past tropopause? (the reason you see clouds with flat tops)

That's why.

Clouds tend to have flat bottoms because the rising and cooling air squeezes out the moisture to visible (liquid) form at generally the same altitude for that day. Tops of clouds tend to be fluffy as air continues to rise and the moisture is condensing out. The cumulus clouds are just exactly that.

If a cloud gets big enough to enter the stratosphere (strongly rising air can do this and can often cause thunderstorms) it stops rising when it gets to the temperature inversion, leaving an anvil shaped flat top to the cloud. The anvil shape comes from upper winds blowing the whole mess along.

Thunderstorms are unstable. They will beat themselves up soon after forming. The instant rain begins, the cloud is already tearing itself apart. Thunderstorms form, have a life span, and dissipate fairly quickly (a hour or so).

Complex storms like hurricanes can contain many thunderstorms. The hurricane itself is formed from violently rising air. This creates low pressure at the surface (the air is rising away, and air near the surface must flow in to replace it, creating wind). Pressures in the eye of some hurricanes are incredibly low.

This low pressure allows oceans to be higher than normal, called a storm surge. These can cause flooding when a hurricane comes ashore. It's not just a rain machine, it brings a very high 'tide' with it.

Air naturally cools as you go up in altitude. There is a natural cooling rate in the atmosphere. If air is cooling faster than that as it rises it rises faster, creating more violent storms. Storms form not just because of hot air, but also because of very COLD air above it.

If air is not cooling as fast the normal rate, you get slow rising of air (if at all). These tend to form the large flat sheets of clouds and light rain, called stratus clouds (the kind Seattle gets so much of the time). This type of cloud is common to cool and wet marine climates, like Seattle has.

So not everywhere is a cloud. You need moisture as well as rising air.
Not everywhere is a thunderstorm or hurricane. Fast rising air tends to be quite localized.
Air won't rise in a temperature inversion. You get flat anvil shaped tops to large clouds, and a stubborn haze if a temperature inversion forms near the surface.

The atmosphere is not uniform. it has cold fronts, warm fronts, occluded fronts, and stationary fronts. Air of different temperatures doesn't mix well, a bit like oil and water. These fronts are where air of different temperatures and moisture content occur.

You can read up on this stuff, called meteorology, in several books. The FAA also recommends some of this, since pilots have to fly in air, which contains weather, and even fly into the lower stratosphere (where commercial jets like to fly).

Pilots have a pretty direct access to the weather service and to airport weather stations. These reports are updated periodically, depending on the report, at anything like half-hourly, to daily or even weekly. The most accurate predictions are no better than 24 hours out.

You can access some of this stuff on places like wunderground.com. You'll see it in that cryptic looking message called a METAR (MEerological Terminal Area Report) which is a report of current conditions at a weather station.

The current METAR for Seattle-Tacoma International Airport is KSEA 191916Z 20007KT 7SM R16L/6000VP6000FT -RA SCT012 BKN029 OVC130 08/05 A3026 RMK AO2 RAB07 P0001 T00780050.

This means that the reporting stations is KSEA, or SeaTac airport. 191916Z means the report was issued on Nov 19th, at 1919 hours coordinated universal time.
Wind was out of 200 degrees true at 7 knots. You can see along the ground (visibility) for 7 statute miles (estimated). The -RA means light rain. Clouds are scattered at 1200 feet, broken at 2900 feet, and overcast at 13,000 feet. Temperature is 8 deg C, and dewpoint is at 5 deg C (the temperature at which water will condense out of the air as liquid moisture..clouds).
The barometric pressure is equivalent to 30.26 inches of mercury in a column trying to pull a vacuum. The station is automated (a robot) of class 2 (a rating for weather robots).

In other words, a typical day at this weather station for this time of year. Grey skies, light rain, chilly but not cold, nice clammy weather.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 19-11-2020 21:34
19-11-2020 21:34
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13984)
Spongy Iris wrote:
James___ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
James___ wrote:
If you scroll down to winter and summer polar jet streams, for the last couple of months the jet stream has basically followed it's summer path.

https://climate.ncsu.edu/edu/JetStream#:~:text=The%20two%20jet%20streams%20that,and%20the%20warm%20equatorial%20air.


The last couple of months was the end of summer, James.



You are wrong Parrot. You missed that in Octoberr that it became the fall. This is like twilight in Seattle or other cities in the northern latitudes. Then again, you live in the "Evergreen" state. Most people will not know that that's a Double Entendre.


https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1251369-kermit-the-frog

I suppose we can forgive The Parrot for thinking summer extended to mid November this year. The hot weather definitely lasted very much longer on the west coast in 2020. We had plenty of + 90 F days in October this year by Mount Diablo.

I never said summer extended into November.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
20-11-2020 00:05
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(751)
Nice work ITN I got all that.
20-11-2020 02:14
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
Spongy Iris wrote:
James___ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
James___ wrote:
If you scroll down to winter and summer polar jet streams, for the last couple of months the jet stream has basically followed it's summer path.

https://climate.ncsu.edu/edu/JetStream#:~:text=The%20two%20jet%20streams%20that,and%20the%20warm%20equatorial%20air.


The last couple of months was the end of summer, James.



You are wrong Parrot. You missed that in Octoberr that it became the fall. This is like twilight in Seattle or other cities in the northern latitudes. Then again, you live in the "Evergreen" state. Most people will not know that that's a Double Entendre.


https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1251369-kermit-the-frog

I suppose we can forgive The Parrot for thinking summer extended to mid November this year. The hot weather definitely lasted very much longer on the west coast in 2020. We had plenty of + 90 F days in October this year by Mount Diablo.



The link is hilarious. With Seattle, they have mild winters, conifers (evergreen trees) and no real fall. This means that for the most part they won't see the leaves changing colors. Where I live, the best drives will make the news.
20-11-2020 02:21
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
Into the Night wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:
It seems there was an unprecedented hole in the ozone layer that opened up in the Arctic in Apr 2020, but it apparently healed itself? Not sure...
...deleted Holy Link...

A 'hole' opens at each pole during that pole's winter. It is the Sun acting on oxygen that produces ozone. As long as you have sunlight and oxygen, you WILL have ozone. Winter at a pole means there is no sunlight. So, no ozone being produced.

Ozone is an unstable molecule. It will decay back to oxygen on it's own. UV-C light coming from the Sun can also decay ozone back to oxygen. That's an exothermic reaction, and takes place near the top of the stratosphere, warming it.

.



@All, I decided to delete what I posted. Anyone who has learned anything about the ozone layer and the stratosphere would know that 0° C. is warmer than the tropopause below it which is -56° C. This clearly suggests that ozone warms and does not cool the lower stratosphere or the stratosphere itself.
And holes at the poles are caused by ozone depleting substances (ODSs). Air circulates because of something called the wind. It can transport ozone or ODSs to the poles. And if people wish to accept the disinformation that ITN posts, Caveat Emptor.
Edited on 20-11-2020 02:53
21-11-2020 00:02
Spongy Iris
★★☆☆☆
(311)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
You said ozone helps to warm the lower stratosphere. Isn't it the kinetic energy from the production of ozone that which increases temperature of the lower stratosphere?

Producing ozone lowers surrounding air temperature. Converting oxygen to ozone is and endothermic reaction. UV-B sunlight can create ozone from oxygen. That reaction takes place in lower stratosphere, cooling it.

Spongy Iris wrote:
It seems there was an unprecedented hole in the ozone layer that opened up in the Arctic in Apr 2020, but it apparently healed itself? Not sure...

A 'hole' opens at each pole during that pole's winter. It is the Sun acting on oxygen that produces ozone. As long as you have sunlight and oxygen, you WILL have ozone. Winter at a pole means there is no sunlight. So, no ozone being produced.

Ozone is an unstable molecule. It will decay back to oxygen on it's own. UV-C light coming from the Sun can also decay ozone back to oxygen. That's an exothermic reaction, and takes place near the top of the stratosphere, warming it.

[quote]Spongy Iris wrote:
Is it just temperature that blocks most clouds from forming?

A temperature inversion exists in the stratosphere. Hot air rises from the surface, and as it cools, may form clouds. That air no longer rises in the stratosphere, since it now cooler than the air above it.
Spongy Iris wrote:
past tropopause? (the reason you see clouds with flat tops)

That's why.


Hmm... I thought the ozone-oxygen cycle had a warming effect, due to the temperature inversion in the stratosphere.

Here's the research...

***
Creation:

O2 molecule hit with higher frequency UV to make two atoms of O.

O atom then forms with O2 molecule to make O3 molecule.

Cycle:

O3 molecule hit with lesser frequency UV to make an O2 molecule and O atom.

O atom then forms with O2 molecule to make O3 molecule and extra kinetic energy.

The chemical energy released when O and O2 combine is converted into kinetic energy of molecular motion. The overall effect is to convert penetrating UV light into heat.

Removal

O3 molecule meets O atom to form two O2 molecules.

One O atom meets one O atom to make O2 molecule.

Net reaction will be two O3 molecules leads to three O2 molecules.

***

Anyway, summer sure felt like it lasted much longer than usual this year in Bay Area. The first day of daylight savings, and we were still reaching the 80s.

I guess we will have wait a few more years to confirm if we will see the weather forecasted by James in this thread... Mark the thread!
21-11-2020 00:14
Spongy Iris
★★☆☆☆
(311)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
James___ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
James___ wrote:
If you scroll down to winter and summer polar jet streams, for the last couple of months the jet stream has basically followed it's summer path.

https://climate.ncsu.edu/edu/JetStream#:~:text=The%20two%20jet%20streams%20that,and%20the%20warm%20equatorial%20air.


The last couple of months was the end of summer, James.



You are wrong Parrot. You missed that in Octoberr that it became the fall. This is like twilight in Seattle or other cities in the northern latitudes. Then again, you live in the "Evergreen" state. Most people will not know that that's a Double Entendre.


https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1251369-kermit-the-frog

I suppose we can forgive The Parrot for thinking summer extended to mid November this year. The hot weather definitely lasted very much longer on the west coast in 2020. We had plenty of + 90 F days in October this year by Mount Diablo.

I never said summer extended into November.


I hate to indulge you just for the sake of a petty argument, but on November 18 you said the last couple months were the end of summer (in the 48 contiguous states)

The last couple of months from November 18 could be read as:

The 56 days (8 weeks) leading to November 18, which would be entirely fall (not summer).

October and September, which is mostly fall.
21-11-2020 02:47
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2753)
Time, calendars, seasons, are all man-made creations. Just because we declare November 30th, is the end hurricane season, doesn't mean we will never have a December hurricane, which we've had in the past... Fall, doesn't really happen on a specific date, it's more of when the first killing frosts come, and destroy crops, farmers didn't get harvested in time. Plants don't grow on any time schedule, depends entirely on the conditions they are growing in. The last harvest of the year, is always kind of touchy. Most everything gets harvested too early, and artificially 'ripened', to improve shipping, shelf life. But even then, there is a point where they can't get a good price, if they harvest too soon. Frost damage can be mild to devastating. Packaging and processing plants aren't overly pick, but they don't pay the premium price, less, if there is obvious damage. Stores and restaurants don't buy damaged produce to sell fresh.
21-11-2020 02:51
Spongy Iris
★★☆☆☆
(311)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Time, calendars, seasons, are all man-made creations. Just because we declare November 30th, is the end hurricane season, doesn't mean we will never have a December hurricane, which we've had in the past... Fall, doesn't really happen on a specific date, it's more of when the first killing frosts come, and destroy crops, farmers didn't get harvested in time. Plants don't grow on any time schedule, depends entirely on the conditions they are growing in. The last harvest of the year, is always kind of touchy. Most everything gets harvested too early, and artificially 'ripened', to improve shipping, shelf life. But even then, there is a point where they can't get a good price, if they harvest too soon. Frost damage can be mild to devastating. Packaging and processing plants aren't overly pick, but they don't pay the premium price, less, if there is obvious damage. Stores and restaurants don't buy damaged produce to sell fresh.


How 'bout the sun? Is that man made?
21-11-2020 05:40
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
Spongy Iris wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
Time, calendars, seasons, are all man-made creations. Just because we declare November 30th, is the end hurricane season, doesn't mean we will never have a December hurricane, which we've had in the past... Fall, doesn't really happen on a specific date, it's more of when the first killing frosts come, and destroy crops, farmers didn't get harvested in time. Plants don't grow on any time schedule, depends entirely on the conditions they are growing in. The last harvest of the year, is always kind of touchy. Most everything gets harvested too early, and artificially 'ripened', to improve shipping, shelf life. But even then, there is a point where they can't get a good price, if they harvest too soon. Frost damage can be mild to devastating. Packaging and processing plants aren't overly pick, but they don't pay the premium price, less, if there is obvious damage. Stores and restaurants don't buy damaged produce to sell fresh.


How 'bout the sun? Is that man made?



It's possible that he's upset because he's never seen the leaves turning color in the fall.
Attached image:

21-11-2020 14:55
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
@Spongy, this fireball (meteor) might've been from the taurid meteor shower. It's in black and white but the meteor was green meaning that magnesium was burning.

https://www.space.com/bright-meteor-video-tasman-sea-november-2020.html
21-11-2020 17:15
Spongy Iris
★★☆☆☆
(311)
James___ wrote:
@Spongy, this fireball (meteor) might've been from the taurid meteor shower. It's in black and white but the meteor was green meaning that magnesium was burning.

https://www.space.com/bright-meteor-video-tasman-sea-november-2020.html


I thought the Taurids were done by Nov 18...

This doesn't look like the Leonid meteor I saw the night of Nov 16 either.

The one from the Space.com video link Nov 18 is not moving across the sky as fast as what I saw Nov 16. Although it sure looks a lot brighter and closer to the earth.
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