Gravity fed electrical generation system

James_ wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Electrolysis IS desalination. Remember the salt left behind is a problem.

And yet the brine solution could be trucked to settling ponds (for evaporation) in the desert. Then it could be sold as sea salt which it is. Either that or for roads in winter.

James_ wrote:A link to research being done on using fuel cell technology to generate both power and drinking water. This is where lowering the cost of energy could allow for more research and development.

IBdaMann wrote:

Meanwhile your Bessler wheel awaits its first full 360-degree rotation.

.

Into the Night wrote:

duncan61 wrote:
An electrolyzer is a system that uses electricity to break water into hydrogen and oxygen in a process called electrolysis.Thats what we call it here

Okay. You have defined this word. Remember that YOU defined it.

Into the Night wrote:

James_ wrote:

dehammer wrote:
Unfortunately, as I am a disabled vet, I can not build this myself.

I'm a disabled Vet. I don't use that as an excuse not to learn or to work.

Lie.

James_ wrote:
You see, you have now created a problem. You see my good friend AB Hammer has it bad. He can barely walk and doesn't have a car to drive. So if you think you have problems just know that his are worse. And he told me that I should use him as an example as someone who will never ask for help because that's not what real men do.

You are BOTH asking for help, liar.

James_ wrote:
And yet you wouldn't want credit for thinking of using hydrogen fuel cell technology for desalination? Unless you do the work that's the only thing I can do for you and mention your thread. After all I don't know you so why should I take your word for it? And since I don't know you, I have my own life to live with people who I know who they are and not some random stranger on the internet.

Electrolysis IS desalination. Remember the salt left behind is a problem.

Into the Night wrote:

James_ wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Electrolysis IS desalination. Remember the salt left behind is a problem.

And yet the brine solution could be trucked to settling ponds (for evaporation) in the desert. Then it could be sold as sea salt which it is. Either that or for roads in winter.

Not enough people want to buy it.

IBdaMann wrote:
[quote]James_ wrote:A link to research being done on using fuel cell technology to generate both power and drinking water. This is where lowering the cost of energy could allow for more research and development.

duncan61 wrote:The elephant in the room is the 5000 psi pump needed to liquify Hydrogen to supply the fuel cell.

duncan61 wrote:So no one wants this stuff.You sure are having a bad hair day.

duncan61 wrote:When you are super negative it is only a matter of time till the world catches you out.Yes I am gloating heartlessly.

duncan61 wrote:IBDm.Would you like some coal.

duncan61 wrote:If you check it out you will see it is old wood.Not charcoal

IBdaMann wrote:
[quote]duncan61 wrote:The elephant in the room is the 5000 psi pump needed to liquify Hydrogen to supply the fuel cell.

duncan61 wrote:What does the hydrogen do then?

duncan61 wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

James_ wrote:

dehammer wrote:
Unfortunately, as I am a disabled vet, I can not build this myself.

I'm a disabled Vet. I don't use that as an excuse not to learn or to work.

Lie.

James_ wrote:
You see, you have now created a problem. You see my good friend AB Hammer has it bad. He can barely walk and doesn't have a car to drive. So if you think you have problems just know that his are worse. And he told me that I should use him as an example as someone who will never ask for help because that's not what real men do.

You are BOTH asking for help, liar.

James_ wrote:
And yet you wouldn't want credit for thinking of using hydrogen fuel cell technology for desalination? Unless you do the work that's the only thing I can do for you and mention your thread. After all I don't know you so why should I take your word for it? And since I don't know you, I have my own life to live with people who I know who they are and not some random stranger on the internet.

Electrolysis IS desalination. Remember the salt left behind is a problem.

The desalination plants I have worked on function by pumping high pressure salt water through a membrane.On the water purification plants I worked on at Aquasol we installed bleeds with a needle valve going to a flow meter so the amount of waste could be controlled.Where I live the evaporative air conditioner is a quality brand and on initial startup It dumps the H2O contents of the device and does a prewet.Most have an electric probe and when it is salty enough for a current to pass they will dump the system.Earlier ones had a bleed you could set manually so fresh water is constantly topping the system up.The salt left behind is a problem but manageable

duncan61 wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

James_ wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Electrolysis IS desalination. Remember the salt left behind is a problem.

And yet the brine solution could be trucked to settling ponds (for evaporation) in the desert. Then it could be sold as sea salt which it is. Either that or for roads in winter.

Not enough people want to buy it.

DAMPIER Salt is one of the world's largest exporters of seaborne salt and one of Rio Tinto's oldest businesses, having grown pure salt for more than 50 years.

The company's high-quality, natural and solar salt is valued by large industrial customers across Asia, with supply being sent to chlor-alkali plants in Japan, Korea, Taiwan, China and Southeast Asia.

The three operations are near its primary customers in Asia, reducing shipping costs and time.

Dampier Salt owns and manages the deep-water ports at Dampier and Lake MacLeod, and from Port Hedland where it has guaranteed berth access from the Pilbara Ports Authority.

The ports can accommodate a range of vessel sizes, with the shipping process safely managed by Rio Tinto Marine.

The hot, dry climate and low rainfall of the Pilbara and Gascoyne regions allow the company to harness the renewable power of the sun and wind for 99pc of its energy needs.

As the world's largest exporter of solar salt, Dampier Salt is well-positioned to respond quickly to increased demand from each of its operations.

In 2019, Dampier Salt production was 8mt. The company has the capability to increase salt production by 3mtpa, should market demand increase.

Although there is latent capacity, Dampier Salt general manager operations Brendon Brodie-Hall said he does not see a need to expand production capacity in the next five years.

"Should future demand justify this, brownfield capacity expansions upwards of 3mt could be achieved in a short time frame and at a lower cost than greenfield projects currently being studied in WA," he said.

The company also has no plans to expand its port operations as they are currently well-equipped to fulfill shipping requirements and demand.

The Dampier and Port Hedland operations are located right next to the pristine Indian Ocean, providing the seawater crucial to growing our pure, natural salt.

The shallow evaporation flats have the potential to produce salt virtually infinitely.

From the sky, the Dampier and Port Hedland operations look like a giant keyboard, made up of concentration ponds.

Up to 1mt of seawater is pumped into these ponds each day.

The pumps are very large and each one can pump 10,000m3 per hour, equivalent to filling four Olympic sized swimming pools an hour.

At the Lake MacLeod operation, seawater flows naturally underground through the porous limestone located at the north end of the naturally occurring lake, kick-starting the evaporation process.

The salt produced is used by the chemical industry to make products essential for modern life like glass, paper, plastics, textiles and even soaps and detergents.

Some of the salt is also used by downstream customers to process foods and de-ice roads.

Other markets for the final product – clean, white, coarse salt crystals – is used to produce caustic soda, which is in turn used for the refinement of bauxite in the alumina production process.

This is then sent to smelters for processing into aluminium.

So no one wants this stuff.You sure are having a bad hair day.When you are super negative it is only a matter of time till the world catches you out.Yes I am gloating heartlessly.Can I send you some coal with a letter of where it came from

IBdaMann wrote:

duncan61 wrote:So no one wants this stuff.You sure are having a bad hair day.

Why do I get the strange feeling that Into the Night is talking about a different salt?

duncan61 wrote:When you are super negative it is only a matter of time till the world catches you out.Yes I am gloating heartlessly.

duncan, do you envision yourself as "the world"?

IBdaMann wrote:

duncan61 wrote:The elephant in the room is the 5000 psi pump needed to liquify Hydrogen to supply the fuel cell.

I'm not sure I follow you. Part of dehammer's fantasy is to let the hydrogen gas bubble up to the top of a pipe which, if it were full of a liquid (e.g. water) would require no pump to rise. I thought that was the "gravity generated" aspect of it.

duncan61 wrote:
IBDm.Would you like some coal.If you check it out you will see it is old wood.Not charcoal

Into the Night wrote:

duncan61 wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

James_ wrote:

dehammer wrote:
Unfortunately, as I am a disabled vet, I can not build this myself.

I'm a disabled Vet. I don't use that as an excuse not to learn or to work.

Lie.

James_ wrote:
You see, you have now created a problem. You see my good friend AB Hammer has it bad. He can barely walk and doesn't have a car to drive. So if you think you have problems just know that his are worse. And he told me that I should use him as an example as someone who will never ask for help because that's not what real men do.

You are BOTH asking for help, liar.

James_ wrote:
And yet you wouldn't want credit for thinking of using hydrogen fuel cell technology for desalination? Unless you do the work that's the only thing I can do for you and mention your thread. After all I don't know you so why should I take your word for it? And since I don't know you, I have my own life to live with people who I know who they are and not some random stranger on the internet.

Electrolysis IS desalination. Remember the salt left behind is a problem.

The desalination plants I have worked on function by pumping high pressure salt water through a membrane.On the water purification plants I worked on at Aquasol we installed bleeds with a needle valve going to a flow meter so the amount of waste could be controlled.Where I live the evaporative air conditioner is a quality brand and on initial startup It dumps the H2O contents of the device and does a prewet.Most have an electric probe and when it is salty enough for a current to pass they will dump the system.Earlier ones had a bleed you could set manually so fresh water is constantly topping the system up.The salt left behind is a problem but manageable

What do you mean by 'manageable'?

duncan61 wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:
[quote]James_ wrote:A link to research being done on using fuel cell technology to generate both power and drinking water. This is where lowering the cost of energy could allow for more research and development.

IBDm wrote
James__, there are two minor problems with this post of yours.
1. You are supposed to be pointing to research being done on converting gravity to energy, and ...
2. Research and development isn't being hampered by the cost of energy. The cost of energy does not prohibit additional research.
It would appear that both duncan and yourself are trying to pretend that dehammer's perpetual motion machine is actually just a demonstration of the usefulness of hydrogen fuel. You both seem to believe that perpetual motion machines are actually valid systems that will work as imagined, even when the system "designer" is scientifically illiterate.
Meanwhile your Bessler wheel awaits its first full 360-degree rotation.
Duncan wrote
It sounds like Dehammer is trying to reinvent hydro electric in a vertical pipe.Then use a portion of the electricity to create Hydrogen gas to use in a fuel cell to pump the water back up to the top.It would be cool to see a miniature working model and work out the losses.The elephant in the room is the 5000 psi pump needed to liquify Hydrogen to supply the fuel cell.As a child I loved the miniature steam tractors and stuff that you put a bit of metho or alcohol in a tray and light it up then of they go

I doubt any human will develop anything more efficient than natural gas turbines for generating electricity and regardless of all the stupidity going on about climate and warming natural gas creates sweet F all of anything for what you get in return.Duncan the insane moron

IBdaMann wrote:

duncan61 wrote:What does the hydrogen do then?

Apparently, the hydrogen is used to fill the hydrogen fuel cell ... which powers the turbines to perform the electrolysis that makes more hydrogen for the fuel cell ... in perpetuity ... while also generating lots of spare energy that can be used to save the planet.


This is a bona fide perpetual motion machine. We'll be able to throw out the book on thermodynamics. Physics will be turned on its head. And to think that this revolutionary system was conceptualized by a truly humble and scientifically illiterate philanthropist crusading to save humanity on Climate-Debate.

.

James_ wrote:So if you think you have problems just know that his are worse.

not what real men do.

And yet you wouldn't want credit for thinking of using hydrogen fuel cell technology for desalination?

Unless you do the work

James_ wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

duncan61 wrote:What does the hydrogen do then?

Apparently, the hydrogen is used to fill the hydrogen fuel cell ... which powers the turbines to perform the electrolysis that makes more hydrogen for the fuel cell ... in perpetuity ... while also generating lots of spare energy that can be used to save the planet.


This is a bona fide perpetual motion machine. We'll be able to throw out the book on thermodynamics. Physics will be turned on its head. And to think that this revolutionary system was conceptualized by a truly humble and scientifically illiterate philanthropist crusading to save humanity on Climate-Debate.

.

I tried getting him to understand the limitations of what he was suggesting. You know, for him to understand what is involved with such processes. An example is if you have a pipe filled with hydrogen gas, would it become another Hindenburg disaster?
And to limit that possibility how diluted would the gas in the pipe need to be? And then when a membrane has a limited surface area, how does the flow of gasses and their saturation affect the amount of reactions that generates water?
This is where if he would've put more time into research his idea then it'd be easier to understand how viable of a concept it is. But it's up to him to learn about what he's promoting. Then he can explain it so people would be able to understand why he likes his idea.

Into the Night wrote:
Water at the bottom of a 10000 ft pipe will have a pressure of 4322psi. You have to inject hydrogen gas somehow into that pressure.

That requires a pump.

One method is to put the electrolysis electrode directly in that pressure, but you will require more power than usual to cause electrolysis. In that arrangement, electrolysis is the pump.

Of course, all of this is ignored by dehammer,

Even at normal current, and light pressure in the electrolysis cell, he will use more electricity in electrolysis than he will get from his generators and fuel cell.

He simply can't generate water fast enough and doesn't have sufficient hydrogen to do generate enough water.

Losses from conversion and friction in the plumbing, which of course is totally overlooked by dehammer.

IBdaMann wrote:

duncan61 wrote:What does the hydrogen do then?

Apparently, the hydrogen is used to fill the hydrogen fuel cell ... which powers the turbines to perform the electrolysis that makes more hydrogen for the fuel cell ... in perpetuity ... while also generating lots of spare energy that can be used to save the planet.


This is a bona fide perpetual motion machine. We'll be able to throw out the book on thermodynamics. Physics will be turned on its head. And to think that this revolutionary system was conceptualized by a truly humble and scientifically illiterate philanthropist crusading to save humanity on Climate-Debate.

.

IBdaMann wrote:

duncan61 wrote:The elephant in the room is the 5000 psi pump needed to liquify Hydrogen to supply the fuel cell.

I'm not sure I follow you. Part of dehammer's fantasy is to let the hydrogen gas bubble up to the top of a pipe which, if it were full of a liquid (e.g. water) would require no pump to rise. I thought that was the "gravity generated" aspect of it.

duncan61 wrote:You both seem to believe that perpetual motion machines are actually valid systems

James_ wrote:you need to understand the science behind your idea.

dehammer wrote:No, it does not work that way.

dehammer wrote:It is not the water coming out of the fuel cells that turn the turbine.

dehammer wrote:IF you have an opening pushing 3000 liters per second at a that turbine, the water will hit it at 108 pounds. THIS is what generates electricity.

IBdaMann wrote:
That's because it simply doesn't work.

dehammer wrote:
I didn't say it was.

dehammer wrote:
OK. The turbine will generate less electricity than is necessary to jet the water at that pressure.

Again, anyone who took high school physics would be laughing at your stupidity.

dehammer wrote:Just because you do not have the brain to understand it does not mean it does not work.

dehammer wrote: You ignore the fact that the system works with dams and claim that it can not work anywhere.

dehammer wrote:Do you see a jet at a dam? No, because pressure from the weight above it do the job just fine.

IBdaMann wrote:
Violating thermodynamics means that it cannot work.

dehammer wrote:
Dams do not load their own water.

dehammer wrote:
Your contraption generates the water pressure from the energy.

IBdaMann wrote:snip

dehammer wrote:what ever you think numnuts

IBdaMann wrote:

dehammer wrote:what ever you think numnuts

Going with what I think is the best policy. That way you avoid those pesky physics violations.

Good call.

.

duncan61 wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

duncan61 wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

James_ wrote:

dehammer wrote:
Unfortunately, as I am a disabled vet, I can not build this myself.

I'm a disabled Vet. I don't use that as an excuse not to learn or to work.

Lie.

James_ wrote:
You see, you have now created a problem. You see my good friend AB Hammer has it bad. He can barely walk and doesn't have a car to drive. So if you think you have problems just know that his are worse. And he told me that I should use him as an example as someone who will never ask for help because that's not what real men do.

You are BOTH asking for help, liar.

James_ wrote:
And yet you wouldn't want credit for thinking of using hydrogen fuel cell technology for desalination? Unless you do the work that's the only thing I can do for you and mention your thread. After all I don't know you so why should I take your word for it? And since I don't know you, I have my own life to live with people who I know who they are and not some random stranger on the internet.

Electrolysis IS desalination. Remember the salt left behind is a problem.

The desalination plants I have worked on function by pumping high pressure salt water through a membrane.On the water purification plants I worked on at Aquasol we installed bleeds with a needle valve going to a flow meter so the amount of waste could be controlled.Where I live the evaporative air conditioner is a quality brand and on initial startup It dumps the H2O contents of the device and does a prewet.Most have an electric probe and when it is salty enough for a current to pass they will dump the system.Earlier ones had a bleed you could set manually so fresh water is constantly topping the system up.The salt left behind is a problem but manageable

What do you mean by 'manageable'?

[QUOTE=Poor Richard Saunders;5207091]
Having a bleed and replacing the water regular stops the salt building up.

dehammer wrote:

James_ wrote:So if you think you have problems just know that his are worse.

I had a stroke and can barely walk any distance. I can not climb mountains which would be necessary for this. Just because some people are able does not mean all are.

not what real men do.

Real men know their on limit.

And yet you wouldn't want credit for thinking of using hydrogen fuel cell technology for desalination?

This is not about desalination. It can be used to get clean water but it is about producing electricity.

Unless you do the work

I will be honest with you. I know I can not do this, but I hoped I could get someone with the knowledge I do not have to try to model it, and then they could build it. I would not even be worried that I would not be paid for it.

dehammer wrote:
Things like that have happened many times in history. Take Velcro. It was first suggested in a science fiction book and the guy could not make it. Years later someone else read it and thought that would be a good idea, and figured out how to make it. Now THAT person makes the money. IF I could do this, I think I could be a billionaire, but I can not. So, I put it out thinking someone else might see it and think it was a good idea.

dehammer wrote:
Instead, I had a lot of people telling me that despite it working on a huge scale in nature, it could not work in man made miniature because "they said so".

dehammer wrote:
I understand you can not build it, and a lot of that is because you do not understand what it is all about.

dehammer wrote:
Let me give you an idea of how it could possibly be used. In northern Africa, there is the Mediterranean sea on one side of a huge mountain range. On the other side is the Sahara desert. In between there is a range that can rise up to 27000 feet. There is a lot of people that live on the sea side of the mountain and they use (or could use) a lot of electricity.

dehammer wrote:
IF someone, a billionaire or something, or a company saw this and saw the model would work, they could build a pipe (or two if they wanted to carry oxygen) from the seaward side up to the peak. Then after running it through a hydrogen fuel cell, they would dump it in to the first of 100 "dams" (covered pool, pipe, turbine and generator) systems. This would drop the water 25000 feet to the desert. The water could be dumped initially into a cistern, then used to irrigate hundreds of square miles of farmland. The plants transpiration (water loss) on the farmland, plus any exposed water would vaporize and become clouds over the desert. Since the normal wind flow of the desert is basically circular, the water would be carried all around the desert and would fall back during the night as rain.

dehammer wrote:
OF course the moisture would not remain in the desert forever and would eventually be lost, but it would being a large portion of the desert back to life.

dehammer wrote:
At the same time, it would power much of the electric needs of the countries on the northern part of the continent.

dehammer wrote:

James_ wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

duncan61 wrote:What does the hydrogen do then?

Apparently, the hydrogen is used to fill the hydrogen fuel cell ... which powers the turbines to perform the electrolysis that makes more hydrogen for the fuel cell ... in perpetuity ... while also generating lots of spare energy that can be used to save the planet.


This is a bona fide perpetual motion machine. We'll be able to throw out the book on thermodynamics. Physics will be turned on its head. And to think that this revolutionary system was conceptualized by a truly humble and scientifically illiterate philanthropist crusading to save humanity on Climate-Debate.

.

I tried getting him to understand the limitations of what he was suggesting. You know, for him to understand what is involved with such processes. An example is if you have a pipe filled with hydrogen gas, would it become another Hindenburg disaster?
And to limit that possibility how diluted would the gas in the pipe need to be? And then when a membrane has a limited surface area, how does the flow of gasses and their saturation affect the amount of reactions that generates water?
This is where if he would've put more time into research his idea then it'd be easier to understand how viable of a concept it is. But it's up to him to learn about what he's promoting. Then he can explain it so people would be able to understand why he likes his idea.

No, what you tried to get me to understand was the limit of YOUR understanding.

It is not meant to for desalinating water. It is meant to make electricity by raising the gas up a pipe.

IF you have a pipe 27000 feet high and one foot wide with a vacuum, and on the bottom of the pipe, you started pumping hydrogen in, would it remain on the bottom like water, or would it be like air and rise up though the pipe?

dehammer wrote:
Obviously anyone with any slight knowledge of science would tell you that the gas would fill the vacuum.

dehammer wrote:
IF you kept pumping in hydrogen, eventually the gas would fill the pipe. If you continued to do so, the gas pressure would continue to rise.

dehammer wrote:
Imagine if you would a pipe with a large "ping pong ball". The ball weights just slightly more than air BUT it completely fills the pipe's cross section.

dehammer wrote:
The bottom of the pipe is connected to a sea, such as the Mediterranean. The top of the pipe has a vacuum pump. Since the pipe was put in with it opened to the air, the pressure of the air at the top of the pipe is the same as the pressure outside the pipe at 27000 feet.

Simultaneously. you start to add hydrogen at the bottom of the pipe and vacuum the air at the top. Since the ball completely blocks air from moving from below to above, as you put more hydrogen below and remove it from above, the ball rises. You would need more hydrogen than the air you pump out to move the ball, but not a large percentage. Eventually, the ball would rise all the way to the top. At that point the air in the pipe would (thoracically) be pretty close to 100%. The pressure on the water at the bottom would be the same as air outside the pipe. IF you then connected the hydrogen to a fuel cell, and kept adding the same amount of hydrogen as the pump too out at the top, the pipe would remain the same pressure.

dehammer wrote:
You would not need to have a pump push the hydrogen up the pipe,

dehammer wrote:
since the increased pressure of added hydrogen at the bottom and decreased pressure at the top from released hydrogen would cause the gas to continually move up.

dehammer wrote:
To be honest, I would not build it as a single build. If I were building it, I would determine what the lowest level that you could produce more electricity from the dam's below than I needed and start with that level. The first level would then be bringing in a small amount of money as I raised it up 250 feet to the next level. Each level I went up, would increase the income, paying for more of the system as you went up the mountain.