gravity and temperature

keepit wrote:I think the coriolis force has an effect on wind. It isn't a real force though.

James___ wrote:
@spongy iris, at besslerwheel.com, a perpetual motion forum they say this is why it's impossible.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1LeYYidRXlk

Conservation of energy is not perpetual motion.
Yet in that forum, enough of its members will say prove it to me.
Basically they want credit for what someone does if someone understands the first law of thermodynamics. Energy can be converted and if gravity has no energy then it cannot have force.

Spongy Iris wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:There is never zero wind outdoors. Particles are never absolutely still.

So it is your position that gravity therefore causes particle movement?

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Yes

Gravity is not thermal energy.

It is a force, no? A force can move particles.

A force is not energy.

You can harvest energy using a force.

Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:

Wind is not caused by gravity.

ALL of it is caused by uneven heating of the Earth.

Thermals are not wind.

They are flying due to falling. All flight is based on falling...with style...quite literally.

Due to uneven heating. The Sun sets in the West, you see.

Yes there is. The Sun rises in the east and sets in the west, you see.

ALL wind is caused by uneven heating.

You often seem to express your opinion as if it's a fact. I try to avoid doing that.

Spongy Iris wrote:
Anyway...

The sun rises in the east and sets in the west at the equator, and at 38 degrees north. Why then do winds prevail in moving eastward at 38 degrees north, and moving westward at the equator?

Spongy Iris wrote:

Into the Night wrote:
[

Is gravity any less on a calm day? No.

I didn't say gravity was the ONLY cause of winds' movement. I said it was A cause.

Spongy Iris wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

So why does mercury rise against the pull of gravity in a mercury thermometer?

It expands. But it still can't float like air.

Spongy Iris wrote:

Into the Night wrote:


Gravity does not operate sideways.

Wind movements suggest it prevails in pushing air east in most of the world, and west in the tropics.

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:Oops wrong link. Here you go.
https://youtu.be/zqG-TL0WnjE

Your error is a rather silly one. The work, i.e. source of energy, to rotate the wheel is being provided by a human who alternates between extending the magnet forward and retracting it back. He could have instead just flicked the wheel with his fingers and rotated it that way.

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Did you watch the whole video? They built a stick to wack it upward with each spin to accomplish that task.

Spongy Iris wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:Oops wrong link. Here you go.
https://youtu.be/zqG-TL0WnjE

Your error is a rather silly one. The work, i.e. source of energy, to rotate the wheel is being provided by a human who alternates between extending the magnet forward and retracting it back. He could have instead just flicked the wheel with his fingers and rotated it that way.

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The latter part of the video automates moving the stator magnet in this way. It does NOT show giving the wheel a spin to get it started, or show the wheel long enough where the slowdown is obvious.

In other words, the usual parlor trick with 'perpetual motion machines'. Like any magicians trick, it's all about redirection and lying with a straight face.

This magician, however, doesn't tell you he's lying. It's magick.

It looked like to start the spinning, they pulled a lever to drop the magnetic bar.

It looks like it is spinning steady for a good amount of time. I'm not sure what would slow it down unless the magnets stopped working...

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:First, let's address your position that NO wind is caused by "uneven heating"

I never said that.

It is exactly what you are saying when you claim that it is not thermal energy that causes particle motion.

I never accused you of knowing what you were saying, although you keep omitting that phrase "not thermal energy" when you quote my text.

It appears to be not just uneven heating that causes wind, but also gravity.

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:You can harvest energy using a force.

This is gibberish. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you just tipped your king.

Dude look up how windmills create electricity if you want to understand all the steps in an example of how energy is harvested from a force called wind.

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:You often seem to express your opinion as if it's a fact. I try to avoid doing that. Anyway...

You do it every time you fail to support your arguments.

For example, you expressed your mistaken opinion as fact that gravity, a mere force, and not thermal energy, which is energy, accomplishes the work, which requires energy, of causing wind.

Why can't there be more than 1 cause of wind?

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:Dude look up how windmills create electricity if you want to understand all the steps in an example of how energy is harvested from a force called wind.

Dude, make an affirmative argument that doesn't violate physics and I'll be happy to discuss it with you.

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Windmills don't violate physics.

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:It appears to be not just uneven heating that causes wind, but also gravity.

No, it does not appear that way. Why do you make the claim?

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Why does wind move west in the tropics and east in the rest of the world?

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Friction.

Maybe keep the wheel well lubed.

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:It appears to be not just uneven heating that causes wind, but also gravity.

No, it does not appear that way. Why do you make the claim?

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Why does wind prevail in moving west in the tropics and east in the rest of the world?

This is a question and is not any sort of affirmative argument.


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I thought you might understand the Socratic method.

Into the Night wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:You often seem to express your opinion as if it's a fact. I try to avoid doing that. Anyway...

You do it every time you fail to support your arguments.

For example, you expressed your mistaken opinion as fact that gravity, a mere force, and not thermal energy, which is energy, accomplishes the work, which requires energy, of causing wind.

Why can't there be more than 1 cause of wind?

Why do you want more than one cause of wind?

James___ wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:You often seem to express your opinion as if it's a fact. I try to avoid doing that. Anyway...

You do it every time you fail to support your arguments.

For example, you expressed your mistaken opinion as fact that gravity, a mere force, and not thermal energy, which is energy, accomplishes the work, which requires energy, of causing wind.

Why can't there be more than 1 cause of wind?

Why do you want more than one cause of wind?

There are 2 basic causes of wind. One is the warming of the atmosphere as it is exposed to solar radiation. Another would be when the atmosphere is cooling in the evening, moving away from the Sun.

James___ wrote:
Then there's the Moon's gravitational effect on decreasing the relative mass of the atmosphere creating both low and high tides just as it does with the oceans. After that, topography would influence how the wind blows.

James___ wrote:
As for why are there easterly winds that blow into the Caribbean? It might be that the jet stream that flows across the US and then the same jet stream in the southern hemisphere cause air from Africa to blow towards the west. This is because both jet streams might create a slight atmospheric depression after they cross mountain ranges in Brazil (the Andes) and the US (the Rocky Mountains).
And it can get more complicated if you consider warm ocean currents in the Atlantic Ocean.
I think with where I am at on my project, I think I'll take it easy while I finish it. I do have a simpler design that I am working on the design drawings for. And if everything works out for me, and I mean with my experiment, it will be interesting.

Into the Night wrote:

James___ wrote:

There are 2 basic causes of wind. One is the warming of the atmosphere as it is exposed to solar radiation. Another would be when the atmosphere is cooling in the evening, moving away from the Sun.

That is the same cause. Uneven heating.

What about winds that blow against the jet stream?

James___ wrote:The atmosphere warming in the morning and cooling in the evening is directional. Hot flows to cold, ie., west to east just as the jet streams and the coreolis effect is in the same direction.

James___ wrote: And now we can consider if the warming in the morning and cooling in the evening "push" the air at 500 m altitude.

James___ wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

James___ wrote:

There are 2 basic causes of wind. One is the warming of the atmosphere as it is exposed to solar radiation. Another would be when the atmosphere is cooling in the evening, moving away from the Sun.

That is the same cause. Uneven heating.

What about winds that blow against the jet stream?

The atmosphere warming in the morning and cooling in the evening is directional.

James___ wrote:
Hot flows to cold, ie., west to east just as the jet streams and the coreolis effect is in the same direction.

James___ wrote:
And as we know, atmospheric gasses move at about the same velocity that the Earth rotates at near ground level.

James___ wrote:
At altitude of 500 m, it can be over 10 m/s.

James___ wrote:
That can also affect winds at ground level if the air pressure in the upper atmosphere changes. You know, like the Moon affecting the Earth's gravity.

James___ wrote:
And now we can consider if the warming in the morning and cooling in the evening "push" the air at 500 m altitude. Would need to consider wind speeds at night at that altitude. It's possible that air circulation at 500 m altitude is consistent but someone would have to do a search for that.

James___ wrote:Does it bother you (plural) that spongy iris might be right?

James___ wrote:If you (plural) consider that it stays warm after sunset

James___ wrote:is that because the warming and expanding atmospheric gasses pushing warm air into the [future]?

James___ wrote: And as a result the wind comes from changes in the atmospheric pressure at altitude which allows for weather systems?

James___ wrote:
Does it bother you (plural) that spongy iris might be right? If you (plural) consider that it stays warm after sunset until the early morning hours, is that because the warming and expanding atmospheric gasses pushing warm air into the night? p.s., that's a double entendre as it is also a pun. ITN is filled with a lot of hot air.

And as a result the wind comes from changes in the atmospheric pressure at altitude which allows for weather systems?

Into the Night wrote:

James___ wrote:
Does it bother you (plural) that spongy iris might be right? If you (plural) consider that it stays warm after sunset until the early morning hours, is that because the warming and expanding atmospheric gasses pushing warm air into the night? p.s., that's a double entendre as it is also a pun. ITN is filled with a lot of hot air.

And as a result the wind comes from changes in the atmospheric pressure at altitude which allows for weather systems?

Changes in pressure occur at the surface too. Apparently you never looked a barometer.

James___ wrote:Now everybody knows that the hurricanes in Florida start over Ethiopia, right?

James___ wrote:This is because you have dry air blowing down the Atlas Mountains from Turkey and mixing with warm, moist air coming up through the Red Sea.

James___ wrote: And yet the winds blow across the hot Sahara Desert.

James___ wrote: This is probably because as you see in the attached image, the currents recirculating from the Gulf Stream going north have a cooler recirculation gyre the closer to North Africa (the country) they go.

The Gulf Stream extension and its recirculation to the south is a region whose dynamics are of great interest. Here in the north-west corner of the subtropical gyre the Sverdrup constraint on the integrated mass transport no longer holds: the circulation is 'overspun' with inertial effects exerting a controlling influence. The presence of the intense eastward flowing Gulf Stream extension, on the northern rim of the gyre, see Fig. 1, is an indication of the inertial nature of the flow. Warm fluid emanating from the western boundary current flows eastwards in this jet and, in winter, yields up much heat to the atmosphere. The consequent convection weakens the stratification and so can act as a vertically distributed source of low potential vorticity on the northern rim of the gyre. The direct driving by the wind must also be an important vorticity sink; as noted by Behringer et al. (1979) the eastward wind-stress is particularly intense over the warm core of the Gulf Stream in winter and its curl is high and anticyclonic. Thus the recirculation occurs where fluid circulating in the gyre is very likely to have its potential vorticity reduced by both thermodynamic and mechanical surface processes.

IBdaMann wrote:


For the full boooooooolsch't effect you have to GO HERE.

HarveyH55 wrote:
Hurricanes are natures 'gravity wheels"? I don't think your Bill Nye weather lesson comes close. Not all tropical storms travel from Africa...

HarveyH55 wrote:
Hurricanes are natures 'gravity wheels"? I don't think your Bill Nye weather lesson comes close. Not all tropical storms travel from Africa...

gfm7175 wrote:

HarveyH55 wrote:
Hurricanes are natures 'gravity wheels"? I don't think your Bill Nye weather lesson comes close. Not all tropical storms travel from Africa...

And not all jet streams are Norwegian...

James___ wrote:Thank you gfm. I just didn't know that some of you were so openly eracist.

IBdaMann wrote:

James___ wrote:Thank you gfm. I just didn't know that some of you were so openly eracist.

James___ wrote:

HarveyH55 wrote:
Hurricanes are natures 'gravity wheels"? I don't think your Bill Nye weather lesson comes close. Not all tropical storms travel from Africa...

For you, they do. During the summer, every weather system that visits Florida is from Ethiopia. How do you not know this? Hopefully you won't say "I'm white".

James___ wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

James___ wrote:
Does it bother you (plural) that spongy iris might be right? If you (plural) consider that it stays warm after sunset until the early morning hours, is that because the warming and expanding atmospheric gasses pushing warm air into the night? p.s., that's a double entendre as it is also a pun. ITN is filled with a lot of hot air.

And as a result the wind comes from changes in the atmospheric pressure at altitude which allows for weather systems?

Changes in pressure occur at the surface too. Apparently you never looked a barometer.

When you asked about the weather pattern that brings the spring rain to Ethiopia then across both northern Africa and the Atlantic Ocean, I said it was because of a low pressure system caused by the tropical jet stream moving over the Rocky Mountains.
I mean granted, the temperature variances of the Atlantic Ocean help but have to ask, did you miss that post?

James___ wrote:
Now everybody knows that the hurricanes in Florida start over Ethiopia, right? This is because you have dry air blowing down the Atlas Mountains from Turkey and mixing with warm, moist air coming up through the Red Sea.

James___ wrote:
And yet the winds blow across the hot Sahara Desert.

James___ wrote:
This is probably because as you see in the attached image, the currents recirculating from the Gulf Stream going north have a cooler recirculation gyre the closer to North Africa (the country) they go.

James___ wrote:
Then when you have the warmest water coming from off the coast of the African continent to Colombia and then up to Florida, then the weather patterns that start in Ethiopia can become hurricanes the closer to the Gulf Stream they get. This is because the surface temperature of the ocean needs to be above 85º F. in order for a tropical depression to become a hurricane.

James___ wrote:
And with hurricanes just as with tornadoes, the barometer will drop because such weather phenomena are a low pressure system.

James___ wrote:
And ITN, hopefully this answers any questions that you and Harvey might have as to why Florida has hurricanes and Seattle doesn't.

HarveyH55 wrote:
Hurricanes are natures 'gravity wheels"? I don't think your Bill Nye weather lesson comes close. Not all tropical storms travel from Africa...

James___ wrote:

HarveyH55 wrote:
Hurricanes are natures 'gravity wheels"? I don't think your Bill Nye weather lesson comes close. Not all tropical storms travel from Africa...

For you, they do. During the summer, every weather system that visits Florida is from Ethiopia. How do you not know this? Hopefully you won't say "I'm white".