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Govt action27-02-2020 01:23
keepit
★★★★☆
(1757)
Govt public health action in a pandemic. Is it socialism, democratic socialism, communism, naziism, marxism, or just a good idea? Not trying to promote socialism here but sometimes govt action is necessary and shouldn't result in panicky responses by fearful types of people.

Should we let the virus run willy nilly so that the virus can't complain about govt regulation?
Edited on 27-02-2020 01:27
27-02-2020 01:55
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3496)
keepit wrote:
Govt public health action in a pandemic.
Wow good point. I brought up vaccinations a while back as a parallel idea and until now it didn't even occur to me that we're in the middle of a test of our ability to apply our own science effectively.

Just to push the idea a bit further keepit: What if they came up with a vaccine tomorrow and it was compulsory.

I think that would be well justified.
27-02-2020 02:13
keepit
★★★★☆
(1757)
That's a hard question Tmid. Mandatory vaccinations for young children (who presumably don't have the ability to make an informed decision) would be ok by me. Mandatory vaccinations for adults is much trickier.
27-02-2020 02:21
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7571)
tmiddles wrote:What if they came up with a vaccine tomorrow and it was compulsory. I think that would be well justified.


... unless it was Trump's idea ... then you would complain to your dying day.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
27-02-2020 02:47
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3496)
IBdaMann wrote:... then you would ...
You are so preoccupied with what I think IBD.

I'm pretty sure I know IBD's thoughts on this Keepit. That would be:

"We can't talk about this!"
27-02-2020 03:02
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7571)
tmiddles wrote:I'm pretty sure I know IBD's thoughts on this Keepit. That would be:"We can't talk about this!"


Nope. Are you trying to compete with keepit on who can be the most mistaken? You're setting your sights pretty high, I see.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
27-02-2020 03:21
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3496)
IBdaMann wrote:
Nope. Are you trying...
More speculation about me.

You have nothing to say I guess.
27-02-2020 04:12
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7571)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Nope. Are you trying...
More speculation about me.

You have nothing to say I guess.

Correct. Absolutely nothing ... well, nothing to add ... for the moment.

Wait, I have something. What gave you the mistaken impression that I was speculating?


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
27-02-2020 05:49
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2715)
tmiddles wrote:
keepit wrote:
Govt public health action in a pandemic.
Wow good point. I brought up vaccinations a while back as a parallel idea and until now it didn't even occur to me that we're in the middle of a test of our ability to apply our own science effectively.

Just to push the idea a bit further keepit: What if they came up with a vaccine tomorrow and it was compulsory.

I think that would be well justified.


Stupid idea. They'd have to use physical force on me. I don't get the flu vaccine, although it's free at work, and given in the breakroom.

They would have no way of knowing if it's going to work for most people, until they try it, and see how it works out. They won't know how many people will have severe reactions to the vaccine, until they try it. For some, the vaccine, can be every bit as bad, as having been infected. It's not usually the virus that kills you, it's your own body's immune response to it.

I don't figure on being a lab rat. About 80% of the confirmed cases, only feel mild symptoms; fever, cough, fatigue. No different than a cold, or mild case of flu. The numbers on death and severe cases aren't a good indication yet, since these people were in bad shape, before seeking medical attention. They were also in the high risk category for influenza, and severe symptoms, do to pre-existing conditions.

The only thing good about a vaccine, would be to reduce panic. I'd imagine emergency rooms have been busy, with anybody with a slight fever. Most of the people packing into the waiting area, will be just fine, waste of time, except they all put themselves at higher risk of infection. Only takes one or two of them, to test positive for coronavirus, or even a common flu.
27-02-2020 05:58
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3496)
HarveyH55 wrote:
The only thing good about a vaccine, would be to reduce panic.
Purely a psychological exercise as you see it? Vaccines in general or just a flu vaccine in this example?

I'm assuming you've been vaccinated as a chiled?
https://www.healthline.com/health/vaccinations/6-most-important-vaccines-you-might-not-know-about:
Ideally, by the time your child starts kindergarten, they will have received:
*all three hepatitis B vaccinations
*diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis (DTaP) vaccine
*haemophilus influenzae type b vaccine (Hib)
*pneumococcal conjugate vaccine (PCV)
*inactivated poliovirus vaccine (IPV)
*measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine

Bulletin of the World Health Organization"Vaccination has greatly reduced the burden of infectious diseases. Only clean water, ...performs better."

This really is so similar to the concept at least of Global Warming and Governmental action for the greater good, infringing on personal freedoms, yadda yadda.

"Paradoxically, a vociferous antivaccine lobby thrives today in spite of the undeniable success of vaccination programmes against formerly fearsome diseases that are now rare in developed countries."

Who would doubt WHO, would you?
Edited on 27-02-2020 05:59
27-02-2020 17:16
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2715)
Past vaccines went through years of testing, and improvements, before being widely used, and then required. The coronavirus vaccine is being fast-tracked through the process, and will be given to a lot of people, with minimal tests. They won't know how safe, or effective it is, until millions of people have already been given their 'best guess' vaccine. Any vaccine needs to been in a correct dosage, to be effective. Too little, and they don't get enough of an immune response to produce sufficient antibodies, to fight an actual infection. Too large a dose, and some people are going to have the same severe effects and symptoms, as if they were infected, in the worst way. Everyone has a slightly different immune response. Even the annual, common flu vaccine isn't always effective, and there are some who respond badly to just the vaccine, even death. Read the literature, next time you get the shot, they down play it, but you get warned, sort of...

Humans aren't perfect, they do make mistakes. Humans create the vaccines. Humans manufacture, ship, an apply the vaccines. A whole lot of room for human errors. Any vaccine, may or may not be effective. No way of knowing, until you are actually exposed. Most vaccines are a one time deal either. They are given at times when the individual is at highest risk (children), of death, or serious complications. Doesn't mean they are protected for life. Children are at highest risk, since they are still developing. Children are often in close contact, with other children. Most, are slow learning on hygiene, and other precautionary measures to limit/prevent contact with infected people. One sick kid in school, can infect dozens of other kids, who take it home, infecting parents, and siblings. Parents can't always afford to take 3-7 days off work...

Initially, it appears that 80% of the population won't experience any symptoms, beyond the common cold or flu, and won't know and different, unless they go in and get tested. Going in to get tested, when already in a slightly weakened state, from the cold or flu, puts them in the higher risk 20%, since they will be sitting, waiting, with dozens of other sick people, one or more, might actually have coronavirus. Being infected with a cold or flu virus, doesn't prevent you from getting infected with other viruses. The only thing, is that your immune system is already actively working on a virus, that similar response is also effective fighting the coronavirus, cold, or flu. We won't know, until it happens. The first year of this outbreak, is going to be full of unknowns. Being alarmists, and panicked isn't going to help, and like just make it worse, quicker.

I have every reason to believe, that I'm in the 80%, who will only feel mild symptoms, and won't need medical assistance, if infected. I don't feel a need to take extreme measures, or risks. I will take some days off from work, if I'm feeling the symptoms, and the fever is in the right range, being reported. Doubt I'll be going in to be tested though.
27-02-2020 20:48
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13837)
keepit wrote:
Govt public health action in a pandemic.

What pandemic?
keepit wrote:
Is it socialism, democratic socialism, communism, naziism, marxism, or just a good idea?

Depends on what the government does. Mantra 22.
keepit wrote:
Not trying to promote socialism here but sometimes govt action is necessary and shouldn't result in panicky responses by fearful types of people.

Governments can't stop pandemics. Using a pandemic to justify socialism is a fallacy (non-sequitur fallacy).
keepit wrote:
Should we let the virus run willy nilly so that the virus can't complain about govt regulation?

Viruses don't pay attention to government regulations.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-02-2020 20:51
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13837)
tmiddles wrote:
keepit wrote:
Govt public health action in a pandemic.
Wow good point. I brought up vaccinations a while back as a parallel idea and until now it didn't even occur to me that we're in the middle of a test of our ability to apply our own science effectively.

What pandemic? What science?
tmiddles wrote:
Just to push the idea a bit further keepit: What if they came up with a vaccine tomorrow and it was compulsory.

Not possible. We have a constitution.
tmiddles wrote:
I think that would be well justified.

Justifying the destruction of the constitution because of YOUR personal fear of a virus???


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-02-2020 20:52
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13837)
keepit wrote:
That's a hard question Tmid. Mandatory vaccinations for young children (who presumably don't have the ability to make an informed decision) would be ok by me. Mandatory vaccinations for adults is much trickier.


Neither is constitutional.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-02-2020 20:54
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13837)
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
The only thing good about a vaccine, would be to reduce panic.
Purely a psychological exercise as you see it? Vaccines in general or just a flu vaccine in this example?

I'm assuming you've been vaccinated as a chiled?
https://www.healthline.com/health/vaccinations/6-most-important-vaccines-you-might-not-know-about:
Ideally, by the time your child starts kindergarten, they will have received:
*all three hepatitis B vaccinations
*diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis (DTaP) vaccine
*haemophilus influenzae type b vaccine (Hib)
*pneumococcal conjugate vaccine (PCV)
*inactivated poliovirus vaccine (IPV)
*measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine

Bulletin of the World Health Organization"Vaccination has greatly reduced the burden of infectious diseases. Only clean water, ...performs better."

This really is so similar to the concept at least of Global Warming and Governmental action for the greater good, infringing on personal freedoms, yadda yadda.

"Paradoxically, a vociferous antivaccine lobby thrives today in spite of the undeniable success of vaccination programmes against formerly fearsome diseases that are now rare in developed countries."

Who would doubt WHO, would you?

Vaccines can be useful. But you cannot make them compulsory.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-02-2020 21:34
keepit
★★★★☆
(1757)
Re: the constitutionality of govt action in an emergency. There are examples of the govt taking unconstitutional measures in an emergency. It has never destroyed the constitution. They just have to be very careful about it.
I bet there will be a declaration of a pandemic because many countries can't take emergency measures to quell the situation.
27-02-2020 21:45
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7571)
Into the Night wrote:
keepit wrote:
That's a hard question Tmid. Mandatory vaccinations for young children (who presumably don't have the ability to make an informed decision) would be ok by me. Mandatory vaccinations for adults is much trickier.
Neither is constitutional.

It's entirely Constitutional if done properly
, e.g. every October 20th FEMA declares a "pandemic" and establishes that year's set of "mandatory vaccinations" along with tracking chips placed under the skin to moniter both the patients' location and the vaccines' effectiveness. Of course each such procedure will be accompanied by a free pocket-sized Constitution and a small lapel sticker that reads "I WAS VACCINATED."

All patients so vaccinated will receive a standard form 1099-VAC which will allow them to avoid paying non-vaccination penalties to the IRS enforcement arm of the program. It'll be a win-win for everyone.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
Edited on 27-02-2020 21:48
27-02-2020 22:43
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13837)
keepit wrote:
Re: the constitutionality of govt action in an emergency.

There is no justification of suspending the constitution for an 'emergency'.
keepit wrote:
There are examples of the govt taking unconstitutional measures in an emergency.

There are examples of the govt taking unconstitutional measures through the history of the United States.
keepit wrote:
It has never destroyed the constitution.

Much of it has been destroyed, yes. At least with Trump, he is trying to move back towards restoring it.
keepit wrote:
They just have to be very careful about it.

No. Ignoring the Constitution is destroying it.
keepit wrote:
I bet there will be a declaration of a pandemic because many countries can't take emergency measures to quell the situation.

What situation?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
28-02-2020 04:53
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2715)
What pandemic? You mean panic? It appears, that about 80% of the confirmed infected, don't experience any serious symptoms, no different from the common cold, or flu. These people recover, just as if it was a cold or flu, no big deal. 20% are at a higher risk for severe symptoms, do to pre-existing conditions, and are also in the higher risk category for flu.

Testing hasn't gotten to far as yet, so the actual spread is unknown. When the virus first escaped China, is also unknown, but likely weeks, even months, before it was identified as a problem. The confirmed cases, and deaths will continue to rise, and very quickly. It won't be the virus moving quickly, or being more deadly, just more cases tested, and verified. Initially, coronavirus will appear to be more deadly than the flu, no vaccine, no prescribed treatment.

Don't buy the hype, or accept just a single news source. The government is trying to control a disease, with a lot of unknowns, and unknowables, but they also need to control panic. The want people to take precautions, and be careful, but they don't want to encourage irrational panic. Most government sources, won't be 100% accurate, but if you compare several countries, you should be able to pick out the similarities. Some people like to encourage panic, and profit off the irrational behavior many people exhibit.
28-02-2020 06:48
keepit
★★★★☆
(1757)
The most concerning thing i've heard was something i heard just a few minutes ago matter of fact. There were some cruise ship people brought from japan who had been infected with the coronavirus. They landed at an air force base in california and were quarantined. Well, somehow that virus made it way 10 miles down the road to vacaville and infected a woman who is seriously ill now. The significant thing is - how did the virus get down the road? It didn't hail a cab or rent a car. No. Someone at the base inadvertently carried it to vacaville. So was that particular virus the only virus that made it out of the airbase? Who can know at this time? The thing is, that event can keep happening an exponential number of times.
Edited on 28-02-2020 06:49
28-02-2020 07:10
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3496)
keepit wrote:...somehow that virus made it way 10 miles down the road to vacaville and infected a woman who is seriously ill now.
I always thought if person A got the virus from person B, that means person B actually got sick, and first. Your story makes me wonder if someone from the base got sick and kept it secret.

Right now no one has any immunity and it's 7 times deadlier than the flu usually is. The fatality rate rivals what we had with the Spanish flue which killed 20-50 million in a 1918 world without the subways, planes and central air.
28-02-2020 07:59
keepit
★★★★☆
(1757)
Hi Tmid,
There are subclinical cases who can transmit the disease and yet only get mildly ill. Also, incubation period isn't exactly the same with everyone.

The 1918 flu even got to the arctic and the pacific islands.
Edited on 28-02-2020 08:17
28-02-2020 20:13
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13837)
keepit wrote:
The most concerning thing i've heard was something i heard just a few minutes ago matter of fact. There were some cruise ship people brought from japan who had been infected with the coronavirus. They landed at an air force base in california and were quarantined. Well, somehow that virus made it way 10 miles down the road to vacaville and infected a woman who is seriously ill now. The significant thing is - how did the virus get down the road? It didn't hail a cab or rent a car. No. Someone at the base inadvertently carried it to vacaville. So was that particular virus the only virus that made it out of the airbase? Who can know at this time? The thing is, that event can keep happening an exponential number of times.


Viruses get special rates in cabs.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
28-02-2020 20:15
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13837)
tmiddles wrote:...deleted Mantras 25g...25g...31...


No argument presented.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
29-02-2020 03:21
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2715)
Most of the 'rate' numbers don't mean crap right now. The testing just got started a couple weeks ago. Only hospitalized case were being tested. They didn't shut down flights, or lock down cities, for at least a month, after the virus was discovered. It's cold and flu season, and the symptoms are basically the same: fever, cough, fatigue. With 80% of the cases being no worse than a common cold, it would have passed without drawing attention. There are dozens of cold and flu medicines available every where, that do a great job suppressing symptoms. Containment came late, it's been out and spreading. Most people won't know the had it, just a common cold. Likely some of the flu deaths were misdiagnosed, would know any difference from the symptoms.

A fun fact... The common cold virus, is actual a member of the coronavirus family. Coronavirus are popular with a lot of farm animals as well...
29-02-2020 04:22
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1875)
A fun fact... Coronavirus are popular with a lot of farm animals...


As is keepit.
Edited on 29-02-2020 04:23




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