Geoengineering to Neutralize Ocean Acidification

sealover wrote:
...deleted fictional story...
What is the alkalinity of a pH 7 solution? No way to tell from that alone.
You'll have to give me more info.

sealover wrote:
...deleted more fictional story...
If I start with a 1 molar solution of vitamin C and adjust it to pH 4.5, what is the alkalinity? 0.5 moles per liter. Off the scale compared to groundwater.

sealover wrote:
Should I translate that alkalinity into calcium carbonate equivalents, grams per liter? Only if I have to write a government report.

sealover wrote:

sealover wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

sealover wrote:Is it fun to be a genius? I can only imagine.

It's great! ... but it's not for everyone. Warmizombies are an excellent example of a class whereby intelligence just rubs them the wrong way.

If you'd like to see how my half lives, start defining your terms and you'll be in for an exhilarating ride.

Terms defined:

xenobiotic is not of biological origin

reductive dehalogenenation is the process by which bacteria remove atoms of chlorine, fluorine, bromine, or iodine.

These halogenated organics include everything from teflon to DDT.

No microorganism is capable of degrading these things for profit.

It costs more to make the enzymes to degrade them and make the carbon available for oxidation than they can get from oxidizing the carbon.

The stuff just hangs out in the environment for the longest time.

However, if we provide the right anaerobic bacteria with a source of energy (usually carbohyrate) to do it and provide extreme hypoxia conditions, they can tear the chlorine, fluorine, bromine or iodine off the xenobiotic. The halogen is chemically reduced to chloride, fluoride, bromide, or iodide ion. The remaining carbon can later be degraded for profit by (different) aerobic bacteria when oxygen is allowed to return.

Proven fact. It's already a success story, not a theory.

Contracting microorganisms to do our dirty work for us offers hope for how we can detoxify xenobiotics and facilitate their degradation.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll probably have to try this one again when there are more people visiting the thread.

XENOBIOTICS include PLASTIC.

We synthesized a lot of materials that no organism ever evolved to degrade.

Many bacteria and fungi produce the right kind of enzymes, or are capable of carrying out detoxifying redox reactions, but cannot degrade xenobiotics unless they are supplied.

But it can be as simple and flooding the soil with beer brewery waste to create extreme low oxygen with an energy source for reductive dehalogenation and other xenobiotic degradation reactions.

And we can use a model from Mother Nature. Chitin degradation.

3-way symbiosis: Plant-fungi-bacteria.

Chitin is what arthropod (insects, etc.) exoskeletons are made of. There is a lot of it in soil communities. It is a great source of nitrogen, but it's tough to degrade.

Some bacteria make enzymes that can degrade chitin. But they can't make a living at it. They can tear apart the chitin to mobilize the nitrogen. They could then oxidize the remaining organic carbon. But there's no profit in it.

Almost all plants have symbiotic mycorrhizal fungi associated with their roots.

Plants provide organic carbon to the fungi. The fungi with its extensive network of fine hyphae, contacts about 50 times as much soil surface area as the roots of its plant partner. The fungal hyphae can reach far and wide, using the food provided by the plant. They can then transfer to the plant nutrients acquired from the soil.

Fungi are biochemical wizards are far as producing enzymes to degrade decomposing organic matter. But chitin is a tough nut to crack even for a fungi.
Besides, many fungi include chitin in their own structure. Producing a self-digesting enzyme is hazardous.

Bacteria can degrade chitin, but it's generally not worth it. Unless they are truly starving for nitrogen. But let's connect the three to see the model nature provides for degrading xenobiotics.

The tree gives its mycorrhizal fungi some organic carbon. Go get me some nitrogen. The fungi has a monolayer of bacteria on the tips of its hyphae.
The fungi gives some of the organic carbon it got from the tree and gives it to the bacteria. Go get me some nitrogen. The bacteria produces chitinase. Just far enough away from the fungi not to digest it too. Soil chitin is degraded by the chitinase from the bacteria. The mycorrhizal fungi pick up the nitrogen mobilized by the bacteria and pass it back up to the tree.

We can use those guys to break down things besides chitin.

We can selectively breed bacteria to degrade things that Mother Nature has never seen before. Maybe even throw in a little genetic engineering.

sealover wrote:
There are some other resident science experts who may want to take the next obvious step in this discussion.

sealover wrote:
Why do you hate plastic?

sealover wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

sealover wrote:XENOBIOTICS include PLASTIC.

Are you saying that "xenobiotics" is just another word invented to make "anthropogenic" appear as though it is not simply a religious doctinal concept of Global Warming but a fully developed branch of science?

"Xenobiotics" means "evil, vile product of human activity that causes Climate Change" right?

There is no such thing as a "good" xenobiotic, right?

sealover wrote:We synthesized a lot of materials that no organism ever evolved to degrade.

Would you mind explaining to the board why belief in Darwin's theory of evolution is necessary in order for your subject matter to be fully understood?

sealover wrote:Many bacteria and fungi produce the right kind of enzymes, or are capable of carrying out detoxifying redox reactions, but cannot degrade xenobiotics unless they are supplied.

What does this mean? Are you saying that anthropogenic materials are so evil that bacteria and fungi are effectively prevented from degrading them via astral projection?

sealover wrote:But it can be as simple and flooding the soil with beer brewery waste to create extreme low oxygen with an energy source for reductive dehalogenation and other xenobiotic degradation reactions.

Beer brewery waste will reenable the astral projection?

sealover wrote:And we can use a model from Mother Nature. Chitin degradation.

I don't want my chitin degraded. I want my mushrooms just right when I put them in my lasagna.

Seriously, please explain to these neaderthalls why Darwin's theory is a "must- believe". I mean, it's a fact, right?

-----------------------------------------------------------

I miss speaking at scientific conferences.

They don't allow any hecklers in the peanut gallery

sealover wrote:
Paleobiogeochemistry time again!

sealover wrote:
The banded iron formations reveal that life has been present on earth for 4000 million years.

The geologic record revealed that there was a time before the earth had oxygen in the atmosphere.

The banded iron formations revealed a major shift in oxidation-reduction conditions, where iron was fully oxidized.

It was known that oxygen is deadly to microorganisms adapted exclusively to low oxygen conditions.

So, there must been an "oxygen catastrophe".

A mass extinction must have occurred.

One little flaw in the theory was that there wasn't just one band of oxidized iron in the banded iron formations.

The "oxygen catastrophe" must have happened over and over.

And over and over and over again, over a period of 2000 million years.

The quantities of oxidized iron in the banded iron formations represent at least a 1000 million years of oxygenic photosynthesis.

And this was before enough of the iron in the earth's crust had oxidized that it became possible for free oxygen to accumulate in the atmosphere.

There was no "oxygen catastrophe".

There were 2000 million years during which oxygen was at least sometimes present under otherwise prevailing reducing conditions.

Oxygen was not a poison.

It was a coveted resource.

It was the most powerful oxidant nature ever provided.

It released more energy than any other oxidant when used to oxidize hydrogen, hydrogen sulfide, reduced sulfur of all forms, manganese(II), ferrous iron, and all the other reductants.

And, of course, carbon. Oxygen got the most bang for the buck when a microorganism used it to oxidize organic carbon.

Sulfur gave a lot more energy than carbon, using oxygen to burn it.

Sulfur oxidizing bacteria parked next to the photosynthetic cyanobacteria.

They wanted to catch the oxygen as soon as it came out.

They left us some distinct fossil layers to prove it.

Into the Night wrote:[quote]sealover wrote:
ocean "acidification"

sealover wrote:
(i.e. depletion of alkalinity) would continue to get worse for decades to come.

Buzzword fallacies. Denial of chemistry.

sealover wrote:
pH is commensurate with hydrogen ion ACTIVITY, but not necessarily hydrogen ion CONCENTRATION.

Before we go there, let's start with the basic.

sealover wrote:
Actually it IS possible to measure the pH of the oceans.

sealover wrote:
That probably doesn't require too much suspension of disbelief.

Into the Night wrote:

sealover wrote:
pH is commensurate with hydrogen ion ACTIVITY, but not necessarily hydrogen ion CONCENTRATION.

Before we go there, let's start with the basic.

More of your basic illiteracy?

sealover wrote:
Actually it IS possible to measure the pH of the oceans.

No. You are denying statistical math again.

sealover wrote:
That probably doesn't require too much suspension of disbelief.

It doesn't. It requires denying math.

sealover wrote:
F U you disgusting piece of S

sealover wrote:Actually it IS possible to measure the pH of the oceans.

sealover wrote:But when they measure pH, what are they even measuring.

sealover wrote: I used the word "commensurate" rather than "proportional" because the pH scale is logarithmic.

sealover wrote:pH is the negative of the logarithm of hydrogen ion activity.

sealover wrote:Before we get into "activity" rather than "concentration", make sure we got the "logarithm" part right.

sealover wrote:pH 7 is where the activity of hydrogen ions is equal to the activity of hydroxide.

sealover wrote:And by the way, the fact that chelated ferric iron is so soluble, it means that even at SEA WATER pH it remains soluble and bioavailable.

IBdaMann wrote:
So you are using pharmacology lingo because everyone knows what you mean?

sealover wrote:

sealover wrote:
One geoengineering approach to use coastal wetlands to generate alkalinity for the sea would also sequester atmospheric carbon dioxide.

Coastal deserts could be farmed for alkalinity by pumping sea water into them.

Constructed wetlands have been employed for more than 50 years to neutralize acid mine drainage. Constructed saltwater wetlands could use the same biogeochemical mechanisms to neutralize ocean acidification.

It could be as simple as a low earthen dam across a dry river outlet. Wind-driven or sea-wave powered pumps could give sea water the slight lift uphill. As the water drains back to the sea, it carries the alkalinity acquired from sulfate reduction in the low oxygen sediment.

Continuous pumping of sea water in would balance with continuous drainage and evaporation to establish a steady state of hypersalinity in the constructed, upland saltwater wetland. A high enough rate of continuous sea water input could establish a steady state of only slightly elevated salinity, tolerable for aquaculture.

The resources are already available on site at little or no cost. Unproductive land could be transformed into a sink to sequester atmospheric carbon dioxide, as well as a source of new alkalinity for the sea.

A word of caution about coastal desert chemistry.

You won't have to wait for the live wetland ecosystem to establish before you'll generate a whole lot of alkalinity.

Rewetting a dry desert soil with sea water could result in extremely high initial pH. A toxic witch's brew will be the immediate result, although capable of rapid self attenuation. An exceptionally high pH initial mix could contain toxic concentrations of arsenic, boron, selenium, even hexavalent chromium (of natural origin).

Within seconds of initial contact between the dry desert soil and applied sea water, the soil becomes a high pH chemical trap for CO2.

The pH will decline soon as alkali hydroxides absorb CO2 to become carbonates.

Self attenuation with decreasing pH as CO2 is absorbed will soon sequester arsenic, borate, etc. out of solution.

Spongy Iris wrote:

sealover wrote:

sealover wrote:
One geoengineering approach to use coastal wetlands to generate alkalinity for the sea would also sequester atmospheric carbon dioxide.

Coastal deserts could be farmed for alkalinity by pumping sea water into them.

Constructed wetlands have been employed for more than 50 years to neutralize acid mine drainage. Constructed saltwater wetlands could use the same biogeochemical mechanisms to neutralize ocean acidification.

It could be as simple as a low earthen dam across a dry river outlet. Wind-driven or sea-wave powered pumps could give sea water the slight lift uphill. As the water drains back to the sea, it carries the alkalinity acquired from sulfate reduction in the low oxygen sediment.

Continuous pumping of sea water in would balance with continuous drainage and evaporation to establish a steady state of hypersalinity in the constructed, upland saltwater wetland. A high enough rate of continuous sea water input could establish a steady state of only slightly elevated salinity, tolerable for aquaculture.

The resources are already available on site at little or no cost. Unproductive land could be transformed into a sink to sequester atmospheric carbon dioxide, as well as a source of new alkalinity for the sea.

A word of caution about coastal desert chemistry.

You won't have to wait for the live wetland ecosystem to establish before you'll generate a whole lot of alkalinity.

Rewetting a dry desert soil with sea water could result in extremely high initial pH. A toxic witch's brew will be the immediate result, although capable of rapid self attenuation. An exceptionally high pH initial mix could contain toxic concentrations of arsenic, boron, selenium, even hexavalent chromium (of natural origin).

Within seconds of initial contact between the dry desert soil and applied sea water, the soil becomes a high pH chemical trap for CO2.

The pH will decline soon as alkali hydroxides absorb CO2 to become carbonates.

Self attenuation with decreasing pH as CO2 is absorbed will soon sequester arsenic, borate, etc. out of solution.

I am enjoying the comments from sealover. New life has been breathed into Climate Debate

Questions for this solution...

Would it be hazardous to one's health, to breathe in the air near the constructed saltwater wetlands?

How long would it take to sequester arsenic, borate, etc. out of the solution?

Into the Night wrote:

You can't acidify an alkaline.

It is not possible to measure the pH of the oceans.

Alkalinity is not a source, and it doesn't get stale.

Groundwater is not a discharge.

There is no oxidizing in chemistry.

You can't reduce a sulfate. It's already reduced.

Carbon is not alkaline. It is an element. It is neither an acid nor an alkaline.

Sulfate contains no carbon or carbon dioxide.

You can't generate alkalinity. There is no such thing as oxidation in chemistry. Sulfate has no carbon. You can't reduce a sulfate. It's already reduced.

Buzzword fallacies. Denial of chemistry.

seal over wrote:Alkalinity and alkaline sound very similar but have little in common.

seal over wrote:Alkaline refers to the extent above pH of a solution.

seal over wrote:Alkalinity is acid neutralizing capacity.

seal over wrote:A solution can have pH < 7, yet have very high alkalinity.

seal over wrote:A solution can have pH > 7, yet have very low alkalinity.

sealover wrote:
"Would it be hazardous to one's health, to breathe in the air near the constructed saltwater wetland?"

EXCELLENT QUESTION!

The answer is, potentially, yes.

There are many kinds of sulfate reducing bacteria, and many potential products of sulfate reduction.

One very common such product is hydrogen sulfide.

H2S. The most highly reduced form of sulfur, which has multiple oxidation states.

It is toxic.

The vast majority of sulfur transformed during sulfate reduction by bacteria ends up in the form of pyrite.

I will avoid the long lecture required to explain why, but during part of the initial year of establishment, H2S emissions will be their greatest.

It is unlikely to harm anyone, but it sure stinks.

It's temporary.


"How long would it take to sequester arsenate, borate, etc., out of solution."

Not long at all.

That would be limited to the initial days or maybe weeks upon the very first wetting of the dry desert soil.

Hydroxides of sodium, potassium, calcium, and magnesium make excellent CO2 traps.

So good that you have to change them out frequently if you using them in a lab.

The hydroxide sequesters CO2. CO2 + OH- = HCO3-

Carbon dioxide is transformed into bicarbonate ion. Far less alkaline than hydroxide.

The high pH will drop quickly, long before anything even starts to grow.


I am truly delighted that you wanted to know this.

Most of the local residents who feel the need to post on my threads do not have the slightest interest in any questions about chemistry.

Never even asked me to give an unambiguous definition of chemistry!

You asked me some good ones that gave me an opportunity to share my unique skill set.

Very refreshing!

Thank you, Spongy Iris!

Spongy Iris wrote:

sealover wrote:
"Would it be hazardous to one's health, to breathe in the air near the constructed saltwater wetland?"

EXCELLENT QUESTION!

The answer is, potentially, yes.

There are many kinds of sulfate reducing bacteria, and many potential products of sulfate reduction.

One very common such product is hydrogen sulfide.

H2S. The most highly reduced form of sulfur, which has multiple oxidation states.

It is toxic.

The vast majority of sulfur transformed during sulfate reduction by bacteria ends up in the form of pyrite.

I will avoid the long lecture required to explain why, but during part of the initial year of establishment, H2S emissions will be their greatest.

It is unlikely to harm anyone, but it sure stinks.

It's temporary.


"How long would it take to sequester arsenate, borate, etc., out of solution."

Not long at all.

That would be limited to the initial days or maybe weeks upon the very first wetting of the dry desert soil.

Hydroxides of sodium, potassium, calcium, and magnesium make excellent CO2 traps.

So good that you have to change them out frequently if you using them in a lab.

The hydroxide sequesters CO2. CO2 + OH- = HCO3-

Carbon dioxide is transformed into bicarbonate ion. Far less alkaline than hydroxide.

The high pH will drop quickly, long before anything even starts to grow.


I am truly delighted that you wanted to know this.

Most of the local residents who feel the need to post on my threads do not have the slightest interest in any questions about chemistry.

Never even asked me to give an unambiguous definition of chemistry!

You asked me some good ones that gave me an opportunity to share my unique skill set.

Very refreshing!

Thank you, Spongy Iris!

Thank you for reply sealover!!

I had come across the following article in researching my reply to you yesterday.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/carson-california-federal-help-lingering-stench/

"The mayor of Carson, California, along with a local environmental group, has called for federal intervention to help with a foul odor that has plagued the city for a month now (11/21/21)....

According to the Los Angeles County Public Works, the rotten egg smell is coming from hydrogen sulfide within the Dominguez Channel. The gas is created by rotting plants and other materials in the water...

Maintenance crews have attempted to neutralize the smell by spraying a biodegradable deodorizer into the channel and by utilizing a nano-bubbler system to increase dissolved oxygen. Officials on Monday proposed dredging the channel, but the process could take months to complete..."

And another story...

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2022-03-08/dominguez-channel-legacy-of-pollution

"The 15.7 mile-long Dominguez Channel remains a neglected, trash-strewn waterway designed to flush pollution from surrounding neighborhoods, industrial facilities and oil refineries into the Pacific Ocean.(Carolyn Cole / Los Angeles Times)"

Now that looks like a major source of ocean acidification...

Wonder how far that spreads...

Would unpopulated coastal areas in Southern California be a good place to establish constructed saltwater wetlands?

On a separate note, I often remark, when at California beaches, it looks like the sand is sprinkled with gold. Do you think that could be, sulfate reduction by bacteria ending up in the form of pyrite?

Spongy Iris wrote:
Now that looks like a major source of ocean acidification...

Spongy Iris wrote:
Would unpopulated coastal areas in Southern California be a good place to establish constructed saltwater wetlands?
[quote]Spongy Iris wrote:
On a separate note, I often remark, when at California beaches, it looks like the sand is sprinkled with gold. Do you think that could be, sulfate reduction by bacteria ending up in the form of pyrite?

sealover wrote:
additional note: sulfuric acid in, carbonic acid out.

sealover wrote:
Acid neutralizing capacity typically changes a strong acid into a weak acid.

sealover wrote:
The chemical equation show "carbon dioxide" not "carbonic acid"

sealover wrote:
But "carbon dioxide" and "carbonic acid" are really the SAME THING!

sealover wrote:
We'll get back to that later.

sealover wrote:
Fluxes per unit time versus total pools.

sealover wrote:
There is 50 times as much carbon dioxide dissolved in sea water as there is floating in the atmosphere.

sealover wrote:
These are the TOTAL POOLS of carbon dioxide. The units are mass.

sealover wrote:
When a wetland is drained, 50 times as much carbon dioxide is emitted as there there is sequestered.

sealover wrote:
These fluxes are RATES. The units are mass per time.

sealover wrote:
The difference between total pools and fluxes is a common source of confusion.

Spongy Iris wrote:

sealover wrote:
"Would it be hazardous to one's health, to breathe in the air near the constructed saltwater wetland?"

EXCELLENT QUESTION!

The answer is, potentially, yes.

There are many kinds of sulfate reducing bacteria, and many potential products of sulfate reduction.

One very common such product is hydrogen sulfide.

H2S. The most highly reduced form of sulfur, which has multiple oxidation states.

It is toxic.

The vast majority of sulfur transformed during sulfate reduction by bacteria ends up in the form of pyrite.

I will avoid the long lecture required to explain why, but during part of the initial year of establishment, H2S emissions will be their greatest.

It is unlikely to harm anyone, but it sure stinks.

It's temporary.


"How long would it take to sequester arsenate, borate, etc., out of solution."

Not long at all.

That would be limited to the initial days or maybe weeks upon the very first wetting of the dry desert soil.

Hydroxides of sodium, potassium, calcium, and magnesium make excellent CO2 traps.

So good that you have to change them out frequently if you using them in a lab.

The hydroxide sequesters CO2. CO2 + OH- = HCO3-

Carbon dioxide is transformed into bicarbonate ion. Far less alkaline than hydroxide.

The high pH will drop quickly, long before anything even starts to grow.


I am truly delighted that you wanted to know this.

Most of the local residents who feel the need to post on my threads do not have the slightest interest in any questions about chemistry.

Never even asked me to give an unambiguous definition of chemistry!

You asked me some good ones that gave me an opportunity to share my unique skill set.

Very refreshing!

Thank you, Spongy Iris!

Thank you for reply sealover!!

I had come across the following article in researching my reply to you yesterday.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/carson-california-federal-help-lingering-stench/

"The mayor of Carson, California, along with a local environmental group, has called for federal intervention to help with a foul odor that has plagued the city for a month now (11/21/21)....

According to the Los Angeles County Public Works, the rotten egg smell is coming from hydrogen sulfide within the Dominguez Channel. The gas is created by rotting plants and other materials in the water...

Maintenance crews have attempted to neutralize the smell by spraying a biodegradable deodorizer into the channel and by utilizing a nano-bubbler system to increase dissolved oxygen. Officials on Monday proposed dredging the channel, but the process could take months to complete..."

And another story...

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2022-03-08/dominguez-channel-legacy-of-pollution

"The 15.7 mile-long Dominguez Channel remains a neglected, trash-strewn waterway designed to flush pollution from surrounding neighborhoods, industrial facilities and oil refineries into the Pacific Ocean.(Carolyn Cole / Los Angeles Times)"

Now that looks like a major source of ocean acidification...

Wonder how far that spreads...

Would unpopulated coastal areas in Southern California be a good place to establish constructed saltwater wetlands?

On a separate note, I often remark, when at California beaches, it looks like the sand is sprinkled with gold. Do you think that could be, sulfate reduction by bacteria ending up in the form of pyrite?

sealover wrote:
Would unpopulated coastal area of SOCAL provide a chance to prove that it works?
...deleted excess...

IBdaMann wrote:
I already mentioned this before. You haven't defined a single term. You did not come here with any science. You came here with a religious dogma looking to preach.

.Define: "Climate", "Climate Change", "Climate Change mitigation" and criteria for evaluating Climate Change mitigation.

A chemist would use the correct term "hydrocarbons." A chemist would know that no fossils are burned as fuel.

So you are a scientifically illiterate Marxist whose objective is to frighten people into a panic to end capitalism.

Ask me how I know.

I hope you realize that you have discarded any credibility that you might have otherwise had.

This thread is a non-starter.

You simply copy-pasted this text on someone else's order, didn't you?

Right. Natural geological processes can't possibly be the source of the ocean's alkalinity. No, of course not. It has to be coastal wetlands, Climate's cousin, I presume ... but then there are those pesky "nutrients" that will kill us all if the government doesn't swoop in and save us, right? How much should our taxes be increased in order to properly rectify the situation?

Are you talking about the hypoxic DEAD ZONES? You know, the ones that "scientists" assure us are worse than previously feared?

Are any of these three "geoengineering" approaches free? ... or does each cost a lot of money? Wait, don't tell me, the most expensive one is the "preferred" one but it will require substantial government "investment" which can easily be funded by a small tax increase, am I right?

I have a much better idea. Just have the US Navy scoop up some sea water the next time it has a ship at sea, and simply measure the sea water's pH. When you discover that the sea water is still greater than 8.0 ... you can claim victory without having to do anything.

sealover wrote:
Thank you, Spongy Iris, for a meaningful contribution to a rational discussion.

You mentioned that one approach to mitigating the "rotten egg" smell is simply to aerate.

Bubbling oxygen in.

That is your easiest, cheapest, best quick fix.

Entry of oxygen accomplishes two things.

It allows sulfur oxidizing bacteria to transform hydrogen sulfide into sulfuric acid.

Maybe that doesn't sound better than rotten eggs, but it really is.

Entry of oxygen also prevents further generation of H2S.

Some microorganisms are adapted to exclusively low-oxygen conditions, and oxygen will simply kill them.

Others, like many sulfate reducers won't be killed by oxygen.

But they will be STARVED by the presence of oxygen.

They just can't compete if oxygen is around.

Aerobic microorganisms will get much much greater payoff by using oxygen, rather than sulfate, as oxidant to get energy from the oxidation of organic carbon.

The aerobic population will quickly outnumber the sulfate reducers and starve them out.

Back to the sulfuric acid generated when H2S is oxidized using oxygen.

Some sewer systems built of concrete get dissolved by the stuff.

Hydrogen sulfide, H2S, emitted from the anaerobic sewage by sulfate reducing bacteria under low oxygen conditions, floats up into the air.

Sulfur oxidizing bacteria on the concrete walls of the sewer catch the H2S and turn it into sulfuric acid.

That sulfuric acid then reacts with the calcium carbonate (lime) in the concrete.

The acid neutralizing capacity (alkalinity) of the lime comes into play.

Sulfuric acid + calcium carbonate = calcium sulfate + carbon dioxide + water

Back to bubbling oxygen to prevent anaerobic generation of stink and such.

During dredging operations, anaerobic sediment is exposed to oxygen.

It often contains a lot of H2S that is released.

Dredging use to occasionally cause big fish kills.

Then they learned to use industrial scale injection of air bubbles in the process.

Rather than get fish kills, they get fish feeding frenzies.

Thank you again, Spongy Iris for bringing relevant information and knowledge that makes a valuable contribution to the discussion!

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Spongy Iris wrote:

sealover wrote:
"Would it be hazardous to one's health, to breathe in the air near the constructed saltwater wetland?"

EXCELLENT QUESTION!

The answer is, potentially, yes.

There are many kinds of sulfate reducing bacteria, and many potential products of sulfate reduction.

One very common such product is hydrogen sulfide.

H2S. The most highly reduced form of sulfur, which has multiple oxidation states.

It is toxic.

The vast majority of sulfur transformed during sulfate reduction by bacteria ends up in the form of pyrite.

I will avoid the long lecture required to explain why, but during part of the initial year of establishment, H2S emissions will be their greatest.

It is unlikely to harm anyone, but it sure stinks.

It's temporary.


"How long would it take to sequester arsenate, borate, etc., out of solution."

Not long at all.

That would be limited to the initial days or maybe weeks upon the very first wetting of the dry desert soil.

Hydroxides of sodium, potassium, calcium, and magnesium make excellent CO2 traps.

So good that you have to change them out frequently if you using them in a lab.

The hydroxide sequesters CO2. CO2 + OH- = HCO3-

Carbon dioxide is transformed into bicarbonate ion. Far less alkaline than hydroxide.

The high pH will drop quickly, long before anything even starts to grow.


I am truly delighted that you wanted to know this.

Most of the local residents who feel the need to post on my threads do not have the slightest interest in any questions about chemistry.

Never even asked me to give an unambiguous definition of chemistry!

You asked me some good ones that gave me an opportunity to share my unique skill set.

Very refreshing!

Thank you, Spongy Iris!

Thank you for reply sealover!!

I had come across the following article in researching my reply to you yesterday.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/carson-california-federal-help-lingering-stench/

"The mayor of Carson, California, along with a local environmental group, has called for federal intervention to help with a foul odor that has plagued the city for a month now (11/21/21)....

According to the Los Angeles County Public Works, the rotten egg smell is coming from hydrogen sulfide within the Dominguez Channel. The gas is created by rotting plants and other materials in the water...

Maintenance crews have attempted to neutralize the smell by spraying a biodegradable deodorizer into the channel and by utilizing a nano-bubbler system to increase dissolved oxygen. Officials on Monday proposed dredging the channel, but the process could take months to complete..."

And another story...

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2022-03-08/dominguez-channel-legacy-of-pollution

"The 15.7 mile-long Dominguez Channel remains a neglected, trash-strewn waterway designed to flush pollution from surrounding neighborhoods, industrial facilities and oil refineries into the Pacific Ocean.(Carolyn Cole / Los Angeles Times)"

Now that looks like a major source of ocean acidification...

Wonder how far that spreads...

Would unpopulated coastal areas in Southern California be a good place to establish constructed saltwater wetlands?

On a separate note, I often remark, when at California beaches, it looks like the sand is sprinkled with gold. Do you think that could be, sulfate reduction by bacteria ending up in the form of pyrite?

sealover wrote:
So, if any of you start your own discussion threads, you will certainly meet some of our prolific local scumbags.
...deleted excess...

sealover wrote:
Pyrite at the beach - Bacterial sulfate reduction?

Spongy Iris asked about the "fool's gold" one often sees at the beach.

Was that pyrite in the sand formed by bacterial sulfate reduction?

sealover wrote:
Not most of it.

Most of the pyrite eroded off the mountains and washing down to the sea was not formed by bacteria.

It is the same chemical compound, formed by abiotic mechanisms in geochemical processes millions of years ago. It was in the rocks before erosion.

But walk around to the right part of the beach and you can find enormous crystals of pyrite formed in place by bacteria, during your lifetime.

sealover wrote:
The rising sea level created a new layer of pyrite in the nearby mud flat.

IBdaMann wrote:

seal over wrote:Alkalinity and alkaline sound very similar but have little in common.

Don't they have everything in common, i.e. a certain ability to receive hydrogen ions?

seal over wrote:Alkaline refers to the extent above pH of a solution.

... which is the solution's ability to receive hydrogen ions.

seal over wrote:Alkalinity is acid neutralizing capacity.

... which is another way of expressing the solution's ability to receive hydrogen ions.

seal over wrote:A solution can have pH < 7, yet have very high alkalinity.

... which is to say that the solution can give hydrogen ions and can receive hydrogen ions.

seal over wrote:A solution can have pH > 7, yet have very low alkalinity.

... which is to say that a base solution can have a lesser ability to receive hydrogen ions.

.

Into the Night wrote:

sealover wrote:
Pyrite at the beach - Bacterial sulfate reduction?

Spongy Iris asked about the "fool's gold" one often sees at the beach.

Was that pyrite in the sand formed by bacterial sulfate reduction?

You cannot reduce a sulfate. It's already reduced.

sealover wrote:
Not most of it.

Most of the pyrite eroded off the mountains and washing down to the sea was not formed by bacteria.

It is the same chemical compound, formed by abiotic mechanisms in geochemical processes millions of years ago. It was in the rocks before erosion.

But walk around to the right part of the beach and you can find enormous crystals of pyrite formed in place by bacteria, during your lifetime.

Pyrite is everywhere you go, 'salted' throughout soil everywhere. Yes some is on the beach also.

sealover wrote:
The rising sea level created a new layer of pyrite in the nearby mud flat.

What rising sea level? Did you know it's not possible to even measure the global sea level?

sealover wrote:
Inorganic Carbon versus Organic Carbon

Some of the important differences.

ORGANIC CARBON is in chemically reduced state.

INORGANIC CARBON is in a chemically oxidized state.

sealover wrote:
Organic carbon can yield energy by being oxidized.
Inorganic carbon cannot yield energy by being oxidized.

sealover wrote:
Inorganic carbon is a very weak oxidant.

sealover wrote:
Ancient methanogens used to combine hydrogen gas with carbon dioxide to generate methane, water, and a very small amount of energy.

sealover wrote:
Organic carbon is a weaker reductant than many others in nature, such as hydrogen, hydrogen sulfide, and other reduced forms of sulfur.

sealover wrote:
If stronger reductants than organic carbon

sealover wrote:
are available in the presence of oxygen, microorganisms that use the stronger reductants have a competitive advantage.

sealover wrote:
Such as the sulfur oxidizers who competed to get the oxygen from ancient cyanobacteria in a time when oxygen was a coveted and limited resource.

sealover wrote:
Sulfur oxidation yielded so much more energy than carbon oxidation, the carbon oxidizers didn't have a chance until the sulfur ran out.

sealover wrote:
Inorganic carbon oxyanions bicarbonate and carbonate provide the vast majority of alkalinity in the sea.

Organic carbon anions of deprotonated organic acids (citrate, acetate, etc.) provide more of the sea's alkalinity than previously recognized.

ORGANIC ALKALINITY can be one fourth of the total alkalinity in submarine groundwater discharge from wetlands.

sealover wrote:
As for use of quotes for Ignoramus, Parrot Boy ran out of original stuff weeks ago.

sealover wrote:
All Parrot Boy does is parrot. No science. No argument. Fallacies X, Y, Z..

sealover wrote:
Parrot Boy gets no more attention unless he can think of something new.

sealover wrote:
I BE DUMB is still coming through with gems here and there. Scientific sounding words that can be used for science lessons.

sealover wrote:
I BE DUMB has yet to display if he ever got the alkalinity thing.

sealover wrote:
I suspect he never will because it turns out he doesn't know what pH is either!

sealover wrote:
Thank you for sharing... NOT!

sealover wrote:
So, what wisdom has been interjected into the discussion?

sealover wrote:
"You cannot reduce a sulfate. It's already reduced."

"Pyrite is everywhere you go, 'salted' throughout soil everywhere. Yes, some is on the beach also."

"What rising sea level? Did you know it's not possible to even measure the global sea level?"

Thank you for sharing... NOT!

sealover wrote:
I'm tired of trying to explain to you what sulfate reduction is. It's been weeks.

sealover wrote:
I don't know how the observation about pyrite being "salted" everywhere has anything to do with anything other than evading admission that earlier statements insisted that pyrite could not be oxidized to sulfuric acid,

sealover wrote:
nor could it be formed by microorganisms via sulfate reduction because "you cannot reduce a sulfate."

sealover wrote:
So do you stand by ANY of your previous assertions? No sulfuric acid from pyrite oxidation? No pyrite formation via sulfate reduction?

sealover wrote:
And a hundred other absurd anti-scientific claims left here for the whole world to ridicule.

sealover wrote:
Was I supposed to concede defeat?

sealover wrote:
Are you just trying to teach me something? If so, it's not working.

sealover wrote:
Basically it is another demonstration that you are not teachable.

[b]IBdaMann wrote:[/b

seal over wrote:Natural Selection versus Sexual Selection

seal over wrote:Ducks were gang raping a corpse.

IBdaMann wrote:

seal over wrote:Ducks were gang raping a corpse.

IBdaMann wrote:

seal over wrote:Alkalinity and alkaline sound very similar but have little in common.

Don't they have everything in common, i.e. a certain ability to receive hydrogen ions?

seal over wrote:Alkaline refers to the extent above pH of a solution.

... which is the solution's ability to receive hydrogen ions.

seal over wrote:Alkalinity is acid neutralizing capacity.

... which is another way of expressing the solution's ability to receive hydrogen ions.

seal over wrote:A solution can have pH < 7, yet have very high alkalinity.

... which is to say that the solution can give hydrogen ions and can receive hydrogen ions.

seal over wrote:A solution can have pH > 7, yet have very low alkalinity.

... which is to say that a base solution can have a lesser ability to receive hydrogen ions.

.

IBdaMann wrote:
Oh, oh, ... pick me, pick me ... are they measuring the sadness of the loss of a coral reef?

So you are using pharmacology lingo because everyone knows what you mean?