Geoengineering to Neutralize Ocean Acidification

Im a BM wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM wrote:

Into the Night wrote:
Stop spamming. RAAA.

"RAAA"?

I think you mean "BAAA".. BAAA, BAAA, BAAA...

You can't blame your problem on me or anybody else, Robert.

Stop BLEETING!

You don't get to unilaterally decide what words mean, or whether or not they even mean anything.

It is possible that someone other than yourself recognizes you as more qualified than Google to make authoritative unsupported contrarian assertions that cannot possibly be cited as having any source, other than your own imagination.

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM wrote:

Into the Night wrote:
Stop spamming. RAAA.

"RAAA"?

I think you mean "BAAA".. BAAA, BAAA, BAAA...

You can't blame your problem on me or anybody else, Robert.

Stop BLEETING!

You don't get to unilaterally decide what words mean, or whether or not they even mean anything.

It is possible that someone other than yourself recognizes you as more qualified than Google to make authoritative unsupported contrarian assertions that cannot possibly be cited as having any source, other than your own imagination.

Denying English and playing word games won't work, Robert.
Google is not a source.

IBdaMann wrote:
I already mentioned this before. You haven't defined a single term. You did not come here with any science. You came here with a religious dogma looking to preach.

sealover wrote: Even under the best-case climate change mitigation scenarios, atmospheric concentrations of carbon will only gradually decline.

Define: "Climate", "Climate Change", "Climate Change mitigation" and criteria for evaluating Climate Change mitigation.

sealover wrote: Even if we cease all fossil fuel combustion tomorrow,

A chemist would use the correct term "hydrocarbons." A chemist would know that no fossils are burned as fuel.

sealover wrote:ocean "acidification" (i.e. depletion of alkalinity) would continue to get worse for decades to come.

So you are a scientifically illiterate Marxist whose objective is to frighten people into a panic to end capitalism.

Ask me how I know.

sealover wrote:Direct human intervention to perform environmental chemotherapy and provide exogenous alkalinity to the sea by ourselves,

I hope you realize that you have discarded any credibility that you might have otherwise had.

sealover wrote: ...dumping gigatons of lime or grinding up gigatons of rocks to transport and distribute to the sea is a non-starter.

This thread is a non-starter.

You simply copy-pasted this text on someone else's order, didn't you?

sealover wrote:Coastal wetlands are the major source of new alkalinity entering many marine ecosystems, as submarine groundwater discharge.

Right. Natural geological processes can't possibly be the source of the ocean's alkalinity. No, of course not. It has to be coastal wetlands, Climate's cousin, I presume ... but then there are those pesky "nutrients" that will kill us all if the government doesn't swoop in and save us, right? How much should our taxes be increased in order to properly rectify the situation?

sealover wrote:Under the low oxygen conditions of wetland soil,

Are you talking about the hypoxic DEAD ZONES? You know, the ones that "scientists" assure us are worse than previously feared?

sealover wrote: If anyone is curious, there are three distinctly different geoengineering approaches that could be applied to increase the generation of alkalinity for the sea through oxidation of wetland sediment organic carbon via microbial sulfate reduction.

Are any of these three "geoengineering" approaches free? ... or does each cost a lot of money? Wait, don't tell me, the most expensive one is the "preferred" one but it will require substantial government "investment" which can easily be funded by a small tax increase, am I right?

I have a much better idea. Just have the US Navy scoop up some sea water the next time it has a ship at sea, and simply measure the sea water's pH. When you discover that the sea water is still greater than 8.0 ... you can claim victory without having to do anything.

Im a BM wrote:
DEFINE YOUR TERMS!

I wasn't going to be allowed to discuss the thread topic until I provided definitions for:
"Climate"
"Climate Change"
"Climate Change 'mitigation'"
and criteria for evaluating climate change mitigation.

Im a BM wrote:
There was only ONE sentence of anything asserted in this thread about climate change or its mitigation.

Im a BM wrote:
The rest is about ocean acidification, with no connection to any climate change theories or models or assertions of any kind.

Im a BM wrote:
The context is that "Climate Change Mitigation" has been broadly understood to mean somehow reducing the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Even under the best case scenarios of any schemes in progress, atmospheric concentrations of CO2 will remain elevated well above pre industrial levels for some time.

Im a BM wrote:
This topic of this thread couldn't care less if CO2 causes climate change, or if climate change is even a "thing".

Im a BM wrote:
And the only real connection to climate change mitigation is that CO2 UNAMBIGOUSLY causes ocean "acidification".

Im a BM wrote:
And that even the most ambitious proposals to address "climate change", whatever it may or may not be, through reduction of atmospheric CO2 concentration offers little hope of timely mitigation for ocean acidification.

Im a BM wrote:
NOW, regarding ocean acidification, I am all for DEFINING TERMS.

Im a BM wrote:
I have a much better idea. Just have the US Navy scoop up some sea water the next time it has a ship at sea, and simply measure the sea water's pH. When you discover that the sea water is still greater than 8.0 ... you can claim victory without having to do anything.

Im a BM wrote:
A cheap and simple way to help the sea.


Imagine a simple wind turbine standing in very shallow sea water off the coast of Southeast Asia.

Just like the old Dutch wind turbines that enabled them to farm below sea level, this simple turbine drives a water pump.

The turbine is standing over a recently submerged peatland.

Now below sea level, an enormous reservoir of gigatons of organic carbon sits down below the wind turbine.

The wind turbine takes in sea water and drives it down a shallow tube into the sea floor.

The boring cores acquired while they drilled to install the tube revealed the precise depth of a thick layer of pure peat, near the surface.

Now the wind turbine drives sulfate-rich sea water down the tube into that submerged peat layer.

Sulfate reducing bacteria were already in the water, and they exploit the abundance of organic carbon, using sulfate as terminal electron acceptor to oxidize it for metabolic energy.

Combustion or aerobic respiration of organic carbon produces carbon dioxide as the inorganic carbon product of oxidation.

Anaerobic sulfate reduction oxidizes organic carbon, but the inorganic carbon product of that oxidation is ALKALINITY, not carbon dioxide.

Sulfate reduction generates carbonate ions as the inorganic carbon product of organic carbon oxidation. These help neutralize acidification.

The wind turbine keeps driving more and more sea water down into the submerged peatland sediments. A continuous flow carries sulfate rich sea water further and further into the sediments. It contains PLENTY of sulfate to generate alkalinity.

Eventually, that flow of water comes back into the sea, further offshore than the wind turbine, through the same seeps that used to carry submarine groundwater discharge into the sea when the peatland was still above sea level.

That submarine groundwater discharge (SGD), or maybe now we should call it "submarine sea floor water discharge", is loaded with alkalinity.

It also has a lot of nutrients that marine ecosystems need. It contains nitrogen, primarily as ammonium or dissolved organic nitrogen, and NOT much nitrate.
It contains all the basic nutrient elements marine organisms need. This includes the elusive iron that so often limits the ability of plankton to feed the sea.

The iron in this solution now flowing into the sea is primarily in forms that remain soluble, despite the above neutral pH of sea water. Organic alkalinity, arising from the oxyanions of organic acids, comes with metal complexing power. The iron in the submarine groundwater discharge is held in stable organometallic complexes that do not precipitate at sea water pH.

Ferric iron ions in inorganic salts (ferric chloride, etc.) are not soluble at sea water pH. Ferric iron ions in organometallic complexes (ferric citrate, etc.) are soluble at the higher pH.

Ferrous iron ions in inorganic salts (ferrous sulfate, etc.) are soluble at sea water pH. However, they are readily oxidized to ferric iron in the presence of oxygen, by iron oxidizing bacteria. And that ferric iron is NOT soluble at sea water pH.

Ferrous iron in submarine groundwater discharge is often chelated by organic alkalinity. Within the organometallic complex, the reactive sites on the ferrous iron are occluded from access for oxidation. They remain soluble, and stable, protected from oxidation.

The fisheries near the wind turbine are benefitting from the increased bioavailability of carbonate ions to form calcium carbonate shell. They are benefitting from the increased bioavailability of nitrogen as fertilizer. And they especially benefit from no longer being so limited by the bioavailibility of iron.

sealover wrote:
A cheap and simple way to help the sea.
...deleted remaining repetitious spam...

Into the Night wrote:

sealover wrote:
A cheap and simple way to help the sea.
...deleted remaining repetitious spam...

Stop spamming, Robert. Repetition fallacy. Irrelevance fallacy.

What is 'changing' in climate?
You are still ignoring the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law.

Im a BM wrote:
Then again, ...removed irrelevancy...

sealover wrote:
One geoengineering approach to enable wetlands to generate and discharge alkalinity to the ocean is simply to better manage them.

Rising sea level and drainage for agriculture has greatly decreased the output of alkalinity from coastal wetlands.

As sea level rises, the distance between low tide and ground surface elevation is reduced. There is now less hydraulic gradient during the drainage phase to drive sulfate into low oxygen, organic carbon rich sediments. Tidal pumping is no longer as effective as it used to be to extract alkalinity from coastal wetlands. Once the rising sea level completely submerges the coastal wetland, there is no longer any hydraulic gradient or tidal pumping at all to allow sulfate to enter the low oxygen, carbon rich sediment.

When wetlands are drained for agriculture the hydraulic gradient completely shifts. Water is continuously drained from the topsoil into deep drainage ditches, then pumped uphill into adjacent surface water. The elevation of the recharge water is higher than the water table in the field below the aerobic topsoil. There is upward pressure from recharge water pushing groundwater up toward the drained topsoil, to then be intercepted, drained off, and pumped up to the river.

When wetland soils are drained, buried pyrite is exposed to oxygen. Sulfur oxidizing bacteria then generate sulfuric acid. These "acid sulfate soils" develop very low pH. They also export a lot of acidity, salinity, and dissolved organic matter to surface waters. Wetlands that previously generated alkalinity for the sea as groundwater discharge now export sulfuric-acid-enriched drainage to surface water.

sealover wrote:
"Marine Alkalinity Depletion" or "MAD" - A Modest Proposal

sealover wrote:
The term "Ocean Acidification" or "OA", has been a source of ambiguity.

sealover wrote:
Science denialists

sealover wrote:
...deleted whining...
Marine Alkalinity Depletion, or MAD, is the process by which elevated atmospheric concentrations of CO2 have shifted the equilibrium of the ocean's carbonate system of pH buffering. The acid-neutralizing, pH-buffering action of the carbonate ion, CO3(2-), prevents sea water pH from declining significantly.

sealover wrote:
Acid hydrogen ion plus carbonate ion makes bicarbonate ion.
Carbonate ion alkalinity, the acid neutralizing capacity arising from the carbonate ion, is about 9% of the sea's total alkalinity. About 90% of the sea's total alkalinity arises from bicarbonate ions. Less than 1% of the sea's total alkalinity arises from organic anions, silicates, phosphates, and other oxyanions. Less than a drop in a bucket of the sea's total alkalinity arises from the hydroxide ion

sealover wrote:
The average total alkalinity in sea waterTHIS is the "alkalinity" that is being depleted by ocean "acidification".

sealover wrote:
If we adopt the term "Marine Alkalinity Depletion" rather than "Ocean Acidification", perhaps there would still be the "rebuttal" that "You cannot acidify an alkaline." So what? We're talking about the depletion of marine alkalinity!

sealover wrote:
And why do we even CARE? Because shell forming organisms usually depend on relatively high levels of carbonate ion in solution

sealover wrote:
Marine Alkalinity Depletion has barely lowered the pH. Slightly more than 0.1 pH unit of decline since I've been around. As carbonate ions effectively buffer against pH shift, they are depleted as they are transformed to bicarbonate.

sealover wrote:
...deleted remaining whining and irrelevancy...

Into the Night wrote:

STD

Alkalinity is not a chemical.

STD

You cannot acidify an alkaline.

STD

Is you, Robert.

STD

Carbonate is not a system.
Carbonate is not a chemical.
Water is a buffer.

STD

Bicarbonate is not a chemical.
Alkalinity is not a chemical.
Silicate is not organic.
Phosphate is not organic.
Oxyanion is not a chemical.
Hydroxide is not a chemical.

STD

Alkalinity is not a chemical. You cannot acidify an alkaline.

STD

Alkalinity is not a chemical. You cannot acidify an alkaline.

STD

Carbonate is not a chemical.
There is nothing wrong with the population of oysters, clams, crabs, lobsters, or other crustaceans.

STD

Alkalinity is not a chemical.
Carbonate is not a chemical.
Bicarbonate is not a chemical.
It is not possible to measure the pH of the oceans.

...deleted remaining whining and irrelevancy...

Science is not word games.
Science is not buzzwords.
You deny theories of science, including the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law.

Im a BM wrote:
...deleted spam and whining...

sealover wrote: The term "Ocean Acidification" or "OA", has been a source of ambiguity.

sealover wrote: ... whereas "acidify" only describes the fact that pH is declining.

sealover wrote: "You cannot acidify an alkaline" is one fallacy mantra that is repeated on this website literally HUNDREDS of times.

sealover wrote:"Acidification" is misinterpreted as "acidic",

sealover wrote:I propose that we adopt the term "Marine Alkalinity Depletion" or "MAD".

IBdaMann wrote:

sealover wrote: The term "Ocean Acidification" or "OA", has been a source of ambiguity.

Nope. The term "ocean acidification" identifies the scientifically illiterate.

Science denialists pretend that a hypothetical loss of alkalinity implies acidification. Like children playing "fort", science denialists play "superhero geniuth thaving the planet!" Humanity has not formulated any test that is better at identifying the incorrigibly stupid than checking to see if someone utters the words "ocean acidification."

sealover wrote: ... whereas "acidify" only describes the fact that pH is declining.

Nope. Ask any chemist. pH moving towards 7.0 is neutralizing. I wouldn't expect you to know this.

sealover wrote: "You cannot acidify an alkaline" is one fallacy mantra that is repeated on this website literally HUNDREDS of times.

It's not a fallacy. Again, I wouldn't expect you to understand because this is a chemistry topic. You can try to acidify carbonates or bicarbonates, for example, but you cannot acidify them; you will end up with chemicals that are simply not carbonates or bicarbonates.

Ask any chemist.

sealover wrote:"Acidification" is misinterpreted as "acidic",

...precisely because if something is not acidic, it hasn't acidified. You would benefit from learning English, and from learning chemistry. Learning is great.

sealover wrote:I propose that we adopt the term "Marine Alkalinity Depletion" or "MAD".

Rejected. Submit your proposal at such a time that the ocean is losing alkalinity. At such a time we can resume discussing the inadequacy of mangroves.

Im a BM wrote:
...deleted whining...

sealover wrote:
One geoengineering approach to enable wetlands to generate and discharge alkalinity to the ocean is simply to better manage them.

Rising sea level and drainage for agriculture has greatly decreased the output of alkalinity from coastal wetlands.

As sea level rises, the distance between low tide and ground surface elevation is reduced. There is now less hydraulic gradient during the drainage phase to drive sulfate into low oxygen, organic carbon rich sediments. Tidal pumping is no longer as effective as it used to be to extract alkalinity from coastal wetlands. Once the rising sea level completely submerges the coastal wetland, there is no longer any hydraulic gradient or tidal pumping at all to allow sulfate to enter the low oxygen, carbon rich sediment.

When wetlands are drained for agriculture the hydraulic gradient completely shifts. Water is continuously drained from the topsoil into deep drainage ditches, then pumped uphill into adjacent surface water. The elevation of the recharge water is higher than the water table in the field below the aerobic topsoil. There is upward pressure from recharge water pushing groundwater up toward the drained topsoil, to then be intercepted, drained off, and pumped up to the river.

When wetland soils are drained, buried pyrite is exposed to oxygen. Sulfur oxidizing bacteria then generate sulfuric acid. These "acid sulfate soils" develop very low pH. They also export a lot of acidity, salinity, and dissolved organic matter to surface waters. Wetlands that previously generated alkalinity for the sea as groundwater discharge now export sulfuric-acid-enriched drainage to surface water.

Im a BM wrote:
"Marine Alkalinity Depletion" or "MAD" - A Modest Proposal

Im a BM wrote:
The term "Ocean Acidification" or "OA", has been a source of ambiguity.

Im a BM wrote:
Science denialists pretend the term implies the ocean is crossing the threshold pH of 7 to become "acidic", whereas "acidify" only describes the fact that pH is declining. "You cannot acidify an alkaline" is one fallacy mantra that is repeated on this website literally HUNDREDS of times. "Acidification" is misinterpreted as "acidic", which IS all about being below the magic threshold of pH 7.

Im a BM wrote:
I propose that we adopt the term "Marine Alkalinity Depletion" or "MAD".

This would clarify any ambiguity about whether there is any suggestion of an "acidic" pH below 7 occurring, or feared to occur. The straw man argument to "debunk" the term "Ocean Acidification" cannot be applied to "Marine Alkalinity Depletion". And the acronym "MAD" is easier to remember in context, and more FUN to write than "OA". "MAD" mitigation can be my thing.

Im a BM wrote:
Because MARINE ALKALINITY DEPLETION is what marine biologists are concerned about. Nobody EVER tried to claim that "You CAN acidify an 'alkaline'!" (whatever THAT'S supposed to mean). Nobody EVER suggested sea water pH was in danger of crossing the threshold pH of 7 to become "acidic".

Im a BM wrote:
Marine Alkalinity Depletion, or MAD, is the process by which elevated atmospheric concentrations of CO2 have shifted the equilibrium of the ocean's carbonate system of pH buffering. The acid-neutralizing, pH-buffering action of the carbonate ion, CO3(2-), prevents sea water pH from declining significantly.

Im a BM wrote:
Acid hydrogen ion plus carbonate ion makes bicarbonate ion.

Im a BM wrote:
Carbonate ion alkalinity, the acid neutralizing capacity arising from the carbonate ion, is about 9% of the sea's total alkalinity. About 90% of the sea's total alkalinity arises from bicarbonate ions. Less than 1% of the sea's total alkalinity arises from organic anions, silicates, phosphates, and other oxyanions. Less than a drop in a bucket of the sea's total alkalinity arises from the hydroxide ion, OH-. At pH 8, (OH-) is ten to the minus 6 molar, or 0.000001 M.

Im a BM wrote:
The average total alkalinity in sea water is about 2.3 millimoles per liter, as H+ neutralizing capacity, or about 115 milligrams per liter, as CaCO3 equivalents of acid neutralizing capacity. THIS is the "alkalinity" that is being depleted by ocean "acidification".

Im a BM wrote:
If we adopt the term "Marine Alkalinity Depletion" rather than "Ocean Acidification", perhaps there would still be the "rebuttal" that "You cannot acidify an alkaline." So what? We're talking about the depletion of marine alkalinity!

Im a BM wrote:
And why do we even CARE? Because shell forming organisms usually depend on relatively high levels of carbonate ion in solution to be able to form CaCO3 shell.

Im a BM wrote:
Marine Alkalinity Depletion has barely lowered the pH. Slightly more than 0.1 pH unit of decline since I've been around. As carbonate ions effectively buffer against pH shift, they are depleted as they are transformed to bicarbonate.

Im a BM wrote:
I'm sure the local troll(s) will feel compelled to repeat that "you cannot acidify an alkaline" and perhaps some deep chemistry insights such as "carbonate is not a chemical".

Im a BM wrote:
Meanwhile, I'm going to try to start a "thing" of calling ocean acidification MARINE ALKALINITY DEPLETION, so I can define my terms up front and then save a lot of time by just writing "MAD" every time I want to say "ocean acidification" (and insist that you CAN "acidify" an "alkaline", tee hee hee)

sealover wrote:
One geoengineering approach to enable wetlands to generate and discharge alkalinity to the ocean is simply to better manage them.

Rising sea level and drainage for agriculture has greatly decreased the output of alkalinity from coastal wetlands.

As sea level rises, the distance between low tide and ground surface elevation is reduced. There is now less hydraulic gradient during the drainage phase to drive sulfate into low oxygen, organic carbon rich sediments. Tidal pumping is no longer as effective as it used to be to extract alkalinity from coastal wetlands. Once the rising sea level completely submerges the coastal wetland, there is no longer any hydraulic gradient or tidal pumping at all to allow sulfate to enter the low oxygen, carbon rich sediment.

When wetlands are drained for agriculture the hydraulic gradient completely shifts. Water is continuously drained from the topsoil into deep drainage ditches, then pumped uphill into adjacent surface water. The elevation of the recharge water is higher than the water table in the field below the aerobic topsoil. There is upward pressure from recharge water pushing groundwater up toward the drained topsoil, to then be intercepted, drained off, and pumped up to the river.

When wetland soils are drained, buried pyrite is exposed to oxygen. Sulfur oxidizing bacteria then generate sulfuric acid. These "acid sulfate soils" develop very low pH. They also export a lot of acidity, salinity, and dissolved organic matter to surface waters. Wetlands that previously generated alkalinity for the sea as groundwater discharge now export sulfuric-acid-enriched drainage to surface water.

sealover wrote:
This example uses a wind turbine to pump sea water.

sealover wrote:
However, there can be advantages to accomplishing the same objective with sea wave powered pumps. Especially where there is little wind, the waves will never stop.

[b]sealover wrote:
A cheap and simple way to help the sea.[/b]

sealover wrote:
Imagine a simple wind turbine standing in very shallow sea water off the coast of Southeast Asia.

Just like the old Dutch wind turbines that enabled them to farm below sea level, this simple turbine drives a water pump.

The turbine is standing over a recently submerged peatland.

Now below sea level, an enormous reservoir of gigatons of organic carbon sits down below the wind turbine.

sealover wrote:
The wind turbine takes in sea water and drives it down a shallow tube into the sea floor.

sealover wrote:
The boring cores acquired while they drilled to install the tube revealed the precise depth of a thick layer of pure peat, near the surface.

sealover wrote:
Now the wind turbine drives sulfate-rich sea water down the tube into that submerged peat layer.

sealover wrote:
Sulfate reducing bacteria were already in the water, and they exploit the abundance of organic carbon, using sulfate as terminal electron acceptor to oxidize it for metabolic energy.
Sulfate is not a chemical.
Carbon is not organic.
There is no such thing as a 'terminal electron acceptor'.
[quote]sealover wrote:
Combustion or aerobic respiration of organic carbon produces carbon dioxide as the inorganic carbon product of oxidation.

sealover wrote:
Anaerobic sulfate reduction oxidizes organic carbon, but the inorganic carbon product of that oxidation is ALKALINITY, not carbon dioxide.

sealover wrote:
Sulfate reduction generates bicarbonate ions and carbonate ions as the inorganic carbon product of organic carbon oxidation. These help neutralize acidification.

sealover wrote:
The wind turbine keeps driving more and more sea water down into the submerged peatland sediments. A continuous flow carries sulfate rich sea water further and further into the sediments. It contains PLENTY of sulfate to generate alkalinity.

sealover wrote:
Eventually, that flow of water comes back into the sea, further offshore than the wind turbine, through the same seeps that used to carry submarine groundwater discharge into the sea when the peatland was still above sea level.

sealover wrote:
That submarine groundwater discharge (SGD), or maybe now we should call it "submarine sea floor water discharge", is loaded with alkalinity.

sealover wrote:
It also has a lot of nutrients that marine ecosystems need. It contains nitrogen, primarily as ammonium or dissolved organic nitrogen, and NOT much nitrate.
It contains all the basic nutrient elements marine organisms need. This includes the elusive iron that so often limits the ability of plankton to feed the sea.

sealover wrote:
The iron in this solution now flowing into the sea is primarily in forms that remain soluble, despite the above neutral pH of sea water. Organic alkalinity, arising from the oxyanions of organic acids, comes with metal complexing power. The iron in the submarine groundwater discharge is held in stable organometallic complexes that do not precipitate at sea water pH.
The outlet tube is blocked. There is no discharge.
The base is unstable.
Seawater is alkaline.
Alkalinity is not a chemical.
There is no such thing as 'metal complexing power'.
There is no such thing as 'organometallic complexes'.

[quote]sealover wrote:
Ferric iron ions in inorganic salts (ferric chloride, etc.) are not soluble at sea water pH. Ferric iron ions in organometallic complexes (ferric citrate, etc.) are soluble at the higher pH.
...deleted remaining repetitious spam...

sealover wrote:
The term "Ocean Acidification" or "OA", has been a source of ambiguity.

sealover wrote:
Science denialists pretend the term implies the ocean is crossing the threshold pH of 7 to become "acidic", whereas "acidify" only describes the fact that pH is declining. "You cannot acidify an alkaline" is one fallacy mantra that is repeated on this website literally HUNDREDS of times. "Acidification" is misinterpreted as "acidic", which IS all about being below the magic threshold of pH 7.

sealover wrote:
I propose that we adopt the term "Marine Alkalinity Depletion" or "MAD".

This would clarify any ambiguity about whether there is any suggestion of an "acidic" pH below 7 occurring, or feared to occur. The straw man argument to "debunk" the term "Ocean Acidification" cannot be applied to "Marine Alkalinity Depletion". And the acronym "MAD" is easier to remember in context, and more FUN to write than "OA". "MAD" mitigation can be my thing.

sealover wrote:
Because MARINE ALKALINITY DEPLETION is what marine biologists are concerned about. Nobody EVER tried to claim that "You CAN acidify an 'alkaline'!" (whatever THAT'S supposed to mean). Nobody EVER suggested sea water pH was in danger of crossing the threshold pH of 7 to become "acidic".

sealover wrote:
Marine Alkalinity Depletion, or MAD, is the process by which elevated atmospheric concentrations of CO2 have shifted the equilibrium of the ocean's carbonate system of pH buffering. The acid-neutralizing, pH-buffering action of the carbonate ion, CO3(2-), prevents sea water pH from declining significantly.

sealover wrote:
Acid hydrogen ion plus carbonate ion makes bicarbonate ion.

sealover wrote:
Carbonate ion alkalinity, the acid neutralizing capacity arising from the carbonate ion, is about 9% of the sea's total alkalinity. About 90% of the sea's total alkalinity arises from bicarbonate ions. Less than 1% of the sea's total alkalinity arises from organic anions, silicates, phosphates, and other oxyanions. Less than a drop in a bucket of the sea's total alkalinity arises from the hydroxide ion, OH-. At pH 8, (OH-) is ten to the minus 6 molar, or 0.000001 M.

sealover wrote:
The average total alkalinity in sea water is about 2.3 millimoles per liter, as H+ neutralizing capacity, or about 115 milligrams per liter, as CaCO3 equivalents of acid neutralizing capacity. THIS is the "alkalinity" that is being depleted by ocean "acidification".

sealover wrote:
If we adopt the term "Marine Alkalinity Depletion" rather than "Ocean Acidification", perhaps there would still be the "rebuttal" that "You cannot acidify an alkaline." So what? We're talking about the depletion of marine alkalinity!

sealover wrote:
And why do we even CARE? Because shell forming organisms usually depend on relatively high levels of carbonate ion in solution to be able to form CaCO3 shell.

sealover wrote:
Marine Alkalinity Depletion has barely lowered the pH. Slightly more than 0.1 pH unit of decline since I've been around. As carbonate ions effectively buffer against pH shift, they are depleted as they are transformed to bicarbonate.

sealover wrote:
Meanwhile, I'm going to try to start a "thing" of calling ocean acidification MARINE ALKALINITY DEPLETION, so I can define my terms up front and then save a lot of time by just writing "MAD" every time I want to say "ocean acidification" (and insist that you CAN "acidify" an "alkaline", tee hee hee)

sealover wrote:
One geoengineering approach to enable wetlands to generate and discharge alkalinity to the ocean is simply to better manage them.

sealover wrote:
Rising sea level and drainage for agriculture has greatly decreased the output of alkalinity from coastal wetlands.

sealover wrote:
As sea level rises, the distance between low tide and ground surface elevation is reduced. There is now less hydraulic gradient during the drainage phase to drive sulfate into low oxygen, organic carbon rich sediments. Tidal pumping is no longer as effective as it used to be to extract alkalinity from coastal wetlands. Once the rising sea level completely submerges the coastal wetland, there is no longer any hydraulic gradient or tidal pumping at all to allow sulfate to enter the low oxygen, carbon rich sediment.

sealover wrote:
When wetlands are drained for agriculture the hydraulic gradient completely shifts. Water is continuously drained from the topsoil into deep drainage ditches, then pumped uphill into adjacent surface water. The elevation of the recharge water is higher than the water table in the field below the aerobic topsoil. There is upward pressure from recharge water pushing groundwater up toward the drained topsoil, to then be intercepted, drained off, and pumped up to the river.

sealover wrote:
When wetland soils are drained, buried pyrite is exposed to oxygen. Sulfur oxidizing bacteria then generate sulfuric acid. These "acid sulfate soils" develop very low pH. They also export a lot of acidity, salinity, and dissolved organic matter to surface waters. Wetlands that previously generated alkalinity for the sea as groundwater discharge now export sulfuric-acid-enriched drainage to surface water.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
"Marine Alkalinity Depletion" or "MAD" - A Modest Proposal

The term "Ocean Acidification" or "OA", has been a source of ambiguity.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
Science denialists pretend the term implies the ocean is crossing the threshold pH of 7 to become "acidic", whereas "acidify" only describes the fact that pH is declining. "You cannot acidify an alkaline" is one fallacy mantra that is repeated on this website literally HUNDREDS of times. "Acidification" is misinterpreted as "acidic", which IS all about being below the magic threshold of pH 7.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
I propose that we adopt the term "Marine Alkalinity Depletion" or "MAD".

This would clarify any ambiguity about whether there is any suggestion of an "acidic" pH below 7 occurring, or feared to occur. The straw man argument to "debunk" the term "Ocean Acidification" cannot be applied to "Marine Alkalinity Depletion". And the acronym "MAD" is easier to remember in context, and more FUN to write than "OA". "MAD" mitigation can be my thing.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
Because MARINE ALKALINITY DEPLETION is what marine biologists are concerned about. Nobody EVER tried to claim that "You CAN acidify an 'alkaline'!" (whatever THAT'S supposed to mean). Nobody EVER suggested sea water pH was in danger of crossing the threshold pH of 7 to become "acidic".

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
Marine Alkalinity Depletion, or MAD, is the process by which elevated atmospheric concentrations of CO2 have shifted the equilibrium of the ocean's carbonate system of pH buffering. The acid-neutralizing, pH-buffering action of the carbonate ion, CO3(2-), prevents sea water pH from declining significantly.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
Acid hydrogen ion plus carbonate ion makes bicarbonate ion.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
Carbonate ion alkalinity, the acid neutralizing capacity arising from the carbonate ion, is about 9% of the sea's total alkalinity. About 90% of the sea's total alkalinity arises from bicarbonate ions. Less than 1% of the sea's total alkalinity arises from organic anions, silicates, phosphates, and other oxyanions. Less than a drop in a bucket of the sea's total alkalinity arises from the hydroxide ion, OH-. At pH 8, (OH-) is ten to the minus 6 molar, or 0.000001 M.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
The average total alkalinity in sea water is about 2.3 millimoles per liter, as H+ neutralizing capacity, or about 115 milligrams per liter, as CaCO3 equivalents of acid neutralizing capacity. THIS is the "alkalinity" that is being depleted by ocean "acidification".

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
If we adopt the term "Marine Alkalinity Depletion" rather than "Ocean Acidification", perhaps there would still be the "rebuttal" that "You cannot acidify an alkaline." So what? We're talking about the depletion of marine alkalinity!

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
And why do we even CARE? Because shell forming organisms usually depend on relatively high levels of carbonate ion in solution to be able to form CaCO3 shell.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
Marine Alkalinity Depletion has barely lowered the pH. Slightly more than 0.1 pH unit of decline since I've been around. As carbonate ions effectively buffer against pH shift, they are depleted as they are transformed to bicarbonate.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
I'm sure the local troll(s) will feel compelled to repeat that "you cannot acidify an alkaline" and perhaps some deep chemistry insights such as "carbonate is not a chemical".

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
Meanwhile, I'm going to try to start a "thing" of calling ocean acidification MARINE ALKALINITY DEPLETION, so I can define my terms up front and then save a lot of time by just writing "MAD" every time I want to say "ocean acidification" (and insist that you CAN "acidify" an "alkaline", tee hee hee)

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:

One geoengineering approach to enable wetlands to generate and discharge alkalinity to the ocean is simply to better manage them.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
Rising sea level and drainage for agriculture has greatly decreased the output of alkalinity from coastal wetlands.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
As sea level rises, the distance between low tide and ground surface elevation is reduced. There is now less hydraulic gradient during the drainage phase to drive sulfate into low oxygen, organic carbon rich sediments. Tidal pumping is no longer as effective as it used to be to extract alkalinity from coastal wetlands. Once the rising sea level completely submerges the coastal wetland, there is no longer any hydraulic gradient or tidal pumping at all to allow sulfate to enter the low oxygen, carbon rich sediment.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
When wetlands are drained for agriculture the hydraulic gradient completely shifts. Water is continuously drained from the topsoil into deep drainage ditches, then pumped uphill into adjacent surface water. The elevation of the recharge water is higher than the water table in the field below the aerobic topsoil. There is upward pressure from recharge water pushing groundwater up toward the drained topsoil, to then be intercepted, drained off, and pumped up to the river.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
When wetland soils are drained, buried pyrite is exposed to oxygen. Sulfur oxidizing bacteria then generate sulfuric acid. These "acid sulfate soils" develop very low pH. They also export a lot of acidity, salinity, and dissolved organic matter to surface waters. Wetlands that previously generated alkalinity for the sea as groundwater discharge now export sulfuric-acid-enriched drainage to surface water.

sealover wrote: Science denialists pretend the term implies the ocean is crossing the threshold pH of 7 to become "acidic",

sealover wrote: whereas "acidify" only describes the fact that pH is declining.

sealover wrote: "You cannot acidify an alkaline" is one fallacy mantra that is repeated on this website literally HUNDREDS of times.

sealover wrote: "Acidification" is misinterpreted as "acidic",

sealover wrote:I propose that we adopt the term "Marine Alkalinity Depletion" or "MAD".

sealover wrote: The straw man argument to "debunk" the term "Ocean Acidification" cannot be applied to "Marine Alkalinity Depletion".

sealover wrote: Because MARINE ALKALINITY DEPLETION is what marine biologists are concerned about.

sealover wrote: Nobody EVER tried to claim that "You CAN acidify an 'alkaline'!"

sealover wrote: Nobody EVER suggested sea water pH was in danger of crossing the threshold pH of 7 to become "acidic".

sealover wrote: Marine Alkalinity Depletion, or MAD, is the process by which elevated atmospheric concentrations of CO2 have shifted the equilibrium of the ocean's carbonate system of pH buffering.

sealover wrote: The acid-neutralizing, pH-buffering action of the carbonate ion, CO3(2-), prevents sea water pH from declining significantly.

sealover wrote: Acid hydrogen ion plus carbonate ion makes bicarbonate ion. H+ + CO3(2-) = HCO3-

sealover wrote: THIS is the "alkalinity" that is being depleted by ocean "acidification".

sealover wrote: And why do we even CARE? Because shell forming organisms usually depend on relatively high levels of carbonate ion in solution to be able to form CaCO3 shell.

sealover wrote: Marine Alkalinity Depletion has barely lowered the pH.

sealover wrote: Slightly more than 0.1 pH unit of decline since I've been around.

sealover wrote: As carbonate ions effectively buffer against pH shift, they are depleted as they are transformed to bicarbonate.

sealover wrote: I'm sure the local troll(s) will feel compelled to repeat that "you cannot acidify an alkaline" and perhaps some deep chemistry insights such as "carbonate is not a chemical".

sealover wrote: Meanwhile, I'm going to try to start a "thing" of calling ocean acidification MARINE ALKALINITY DEPLETION,

sealover wrote:
One geoengineering approach to enable wetlands to generate and discharge alkalinity to the ocean is simply to better manage them.

sealover wrote:Rising sea level ...

sealover wrote: ... and drainage for agriculture has greatly decreased the output of alkalinity from coastal wetlands.

sealover wrote:As sea level rises,

sealover wrote: There is now less hydraulic gradient during the drainage phase to drive sulfate into low oxygen, organic carbon rich sediments.

sealover wrote: Tidal pumping is no longer as effective as it used to be to extract alkalinity from coastal wetlands.

sealover wrote: Once the rising sea level completely submerges the coastal wetland, there is no longer any hydraulic gradient or tidal pumping at all to allow sulfate to enter the low oxygen, carbon rich sediment.

sealover wrote:
"Marine Alkalinity Depletion" or "MAD" - A Modest Proposal

The term "Ocean Acidification" or "OA", has been a source of ambiguity.

Science denialists pretend the term implies the ocean is crossing the threshold pH of 7 to become "acidic", whereas "acidify" only describes the fact that pH is declining. "You cannot acidify an alkaline" is one fallacy mantra that is repeated on this website literally HUNDREDS of times. "Acidification" is misinterpreted as "acidic", which IS all about being below the magic threshold of pH 7.

I propose that we adopt the term "Marine Alkalinity Depletion" or "MAD".

This would clarify any ambiguity about whether there is any suggestion of an "acidic" pH below 7 occurring, or feared to occur. The straw man argument to "debunk" the term "Ocean Acidification" cannot be applied to "Marine Alkalinity Depletion". And the acronym "MAD" is easier to remember in context, and more FUN to write than "OA". "MAD" mitigation can be my thing.

Because MARINE ALKALINITY DEPLETION is what marine biologists are concerned about. Nobody EVER tried to claim that "You CAN acidify an 'alkaline'!" (whatever THAT'S supposed to mean). Nobody EVER suggested sea water pH was in danger of crossing the threshold pH of 7 to become "acidic".

Marine Alkalinity Depletion, or MAD, is the process by which elevated atmospheric concentrations of CO2 have shifted the equilibrium of the ocean's carbonate system of pH buffering. The acid-neutralizing, pH-buffering action of the carbonate ion, CO3(2-), prevents sea water pH from declining significantly.

Acid hydrogen ion plus carbonate ion makes bicarbonate ion.

H+ + CO3(2-) = HCO3-

Carbonate ion alkalinity, the acid neutralizing capacity arising from the carbonate ion, is about 9% of the sea's total alkalinity. About 90% of the sea's total alkalinity arises from bicarbonate ions. Less than 1% of the sea's total alkalinity arises from organic anions, silicates, phosphates, and other oxyanions. Less than a drop in a bucket of the sea's total alkalinity arises from the hydroxide ion, OH-. At pH 8, (OH-) is ten to the minus 6 molar, or 0.000001 M.

The average total alkalinity in sea water is about 2.3 millimoles per liter, as H+ neutralizing capacity, or about 115 milligrams per liter, as CaCO3 equivalents of acid neutralizing capacity. THIS is the "alkalinity" that is being depleted by ocean "acidification".

If we adopt the term "Marine Alkalinity Depletion" rather than "Ocean Acidification", perhaps there would still be the "rebuttal" that "You cannot acidify an alkaline." So what? We're talking about the depletion of marine alkalinity!

And why do we even CARE? Because shell forming organisms usually depend on relatively high levels of carbonate ion in solution to be able to form CaCO3 shell.

Marine Alkalinity Depletion has barely lowered the pH. Slightly more than 0.1 pH unit of decline since I've been around. As carbonate ions effectively buffer against pH shift, they are depleted as they are transformed to bicarbonate.

I'm sure the local troll(s) will feel compelled to repeat that "you cannot acidify an alkaline" and perhaps some deep chemistry insights such as "carbonate is not a chemical".

Meanwhile, I'm going to try to start a "thing" of calling ocean acidification MARINE ALKALINITY DEPLETION, so I can define my terms up front and then save a lot of time by just writing "MAD" every time I want to say "ocean acidification" (and insist that you CAN "acidify" an "alkaline", tee hee hee)



[quote]sealover wrote:
One geoengineering approach to enable wetlands to generate and discharge alkalinity to the ocean is simply to better manage them.

Rising sea level and drainage for agriculture has greatly decreased the output of alkalinity from coastal wetlands.

As sea level rises, the distance between low tide and ground surface elevation is reduced. There is now less hydraulic gradient during the drainage phase to drive sulfate into low oxygen, organic carbon rich sediments. Tidal pumping is no longer as effective as it used to be to extract alkalinity from coastal wetlands. Once the rising sea level completely submerges the coastal wetland, there is no longer any hydraulic gradient or tidal pumping at all to allow sulfate to enter the low oxygen, carbon rich sediment.

When wetlands are drained for agriculture the hydraulic gradient completely shifts. Water is continuously drained from the topsoil into deep drainage ditches, then pumped uphill into adjacent surface water. The elevation of the recharge water is higher than the water table in the field below the aerobic topsoil. There is upward pressure from recharge water pushing groundwater up toward the drained topsoil, to then be intercepted, drained off, and pumped up to the river.

When wetland soils are drained, buried pyrite is exposed to oxygen. Sulfur oxidizing bacteria then generate sulfuric acid. These "acid sulfate soils" develop very low pH. They also export a lot of acidity, salinity, and dissolved organic matter to surface waters. Wetlands that previously generated alkalinity for the sea as groundwater discharge now export sulfuric-acid-enriched drainage to surface water.