Electric cars vs ICE cars
| 20-10-2024 02:32 | |
| Anders☆☆☆☆☆ (36) |
I would prefer you tried to understand whats important and not just you try to bully, you are just not smart enough to do that... Lets turn it around a little, because we dont need to fight about what the price is where you live on gas or where i live, ect. so lets use a smarter way you might accept. The Mercedes car drives 12km/kwh 1liter of gas is equivalent to 8kwh of power, so Mercedes electric drives 96km/liter of gas. Coal is 50% of the price mean this car now are able to drive around 200km on money equivalent to money for 1 liter of gas. And you and I dont need a fight about this, so now tell me how far do your gas car drive in km on 1liter of fuel? Lets compare that to 200km.... |
| 20-10-2024 04:12 | |
Into the Night ★★★★★(22812) |
Anders wrote: Argument from randU fallacies. Making up numbers and using them as 'data' is a fallacy, Anders. Attempted proof by contrivance, AND you are ignoring waste heat. The Parrot Killer Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan Edited on 20-10-2024 04:13 |
| 22-10-2024 16:23 | |
| Anders☆☆☆☆☆ (36) |
So now im not allowed to use the Mercedes prototype, ok, then How about using Xpeng Mona 03, planned to be the most produced ev in the world 2025. Will that do? It is sold with a 50KW battery that promise 510km of range - that is 10km/kwh. When we were using coal for electricity here 1kwh was sold at 3cents on exchange, so cost of 1km driving is 0.3cents. Now let us hear what you want us to compare with, what is the gas price per liter where you live and how far does a car run per km in your area. So what do you pay per km to drive your gas car? We know youre scared to tell, because that will show your lack of knowledge...but everyone know your in deep water, the more you avoid the more they laugh. You already know EV are more efficient, now you are just afraid what happens when you admits your mistakes! |
| 22-10-2024 21:13 | |
| Into the Night★★★★★ (22812) |
Anders wrote: Whatever car you want to buy and drive by your own choice will do. It is, after all, your car. What I protest are the mandates and subsidies. Anders wrote: Marketing always announces more than it can really do. There's a lot of vaporware claims when it comes to cars, including EVs. Anders wrote: So you are driving a coal powered car. Anders wrote: I live in the United States, and gasoline is sold by the gallon, not the liter. We also use miles, not meters. Where I live, electric power (which is pretty cheap compared throughout the country) is $0.139/kwh. Gasoline where I live costs around $3.40/gal (or $0.89/liter). A fair bit of THAT is taxes. I get about 30 miles/gal (somewhat less than the marketed value, as always). The engine on a typical FADEC gasoline car approaches 40% efficient. Charging costs around these parts for EVs (even with the subsidies and mandates) is comparable to running a car on gasoline, but with several important differences: * Maintenance and repair on a gasoline car can be done at your home with fairly common tools. EVs require specialized shops (essentially dealer only maintenance). * Insurance for EVs is extremely high, due to their high cost of parts, and the ease of destroying the battery pack through a collision, high centering, or simply damage from road debris, snow, or flooded areas. * I never have to wait around to charge a gasoline car. The effectively have unlimited range. If I go into remote areas, I can easily carry extra gasoline as well. You can't do that with an EV. * Gasoline cars are much lighter and more maneuverable. The highest acceleration is a gasoline car. * Most EVs can't tow or have very limited towing capacity. * HVAC in an EV is electric, further draining the battery to use it. HVAC in a gasoline car is free, since gasoline engines are heat engines. * EVs get recalled quite a lot, typically for some software update that can't be done remotely, but also for brake problems. The heavier vehicles are hard on brakes, even with inductive recovery systems. Anders wrote: There is a lot more to an EV than cost per mile. Anders wrote: No, they aren't. They use almost (not quite!) twice the energy to go the same distance as a gasoline car. Part of the reason is the weight of the EV, and F=mA (Newton's law of motion). Further, power is generated remotely (in your case using a coal plant) which is a heat engine, no more efficient than a gasoline car heat engine. That power must be converted to high voltage for shipment to your region. That power transformer generates waste heat (they are oil cooled for a reason!). The lines themselves also generate waste heat and leak electricity to the air and surrounding ground areas. Another oil cooled transformer converts that to distribution voltage, and the lines leading to your charger also generate waste heat. The charger itself generates waste heat (lost in the rectifier and regulator). The battery in the EV generates waste heat when charging and also when discharging, which is why the batteries and controlling circuitry is liquid cooled. The motor is also generating waste heat and is cooled by the engine oil. It is simply more efficient to burn the gasoline in the car to make it move, since the waste heat is much less. Anders wrote: I am not making mistakes. You are just pushing the marketing BS, and believing it to be truthful. Remember, the range on an EV in the marketing materials is under ideal conditions. Actual conditions are usually far from ideal. Since you claim $0.03/kwh hour from your electricity source, that obviously is heavily subsidized right there. The Parrot Killer Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan Edited on 22-10-2024 21:25 |
| 23-10-2024 13:15 | |
| Anders☆☆☆☆☆ (36) |
TY for taking up a debate instead of instead of JUST rejecting. Here 80% of electricity is clean, but we do not use gasolin to make electricity for the 20%, we use coal or natural gas. When i said price per kwh is 0.03dollar, it the exchange rate, before transport and middleman. Similar to what your reseller of gasolin pay for the gas he sell more expensive to you. I gave youmy guess that he pay 60cents a liter or around 2.6$ a gallon, do you really think my numbers are that wrong - to me it just clear that you just want to say something, that you dont have knowledge about. You claim that EV makers and everyone else make false statements, it is ALWAYS everyone else who are wrong, did you ever considder it might be you who are sitting full of dope and emty thoughts. Does it matter to you that of course every carmaker incl. EV makers are controlled. YOU might need to read how they make up their range for records, yes also gas powered cars do same. And we were not talking about plus or minus for EV con gas in general, but energy consumption. Btw here we dont pay tax for elctricity to cars, we pay average 10cents/kwh measured on exchange price around 4cents, but we can choose to pay 150$ for free load per month. So if i was cailculating for what people pay in expensive country like here incl. tax it would not make sense, so i calculate from bulk price with known cars. It doesnt matter, gasolin cars are not even close to drive at same cost, but YES gasolin cars might still be usefull in other cases. I drive gasolin car, and dont change anytime soon. Btw you could buy solar panels at 30cents/w inkl. all that 300/kwh or 15 dollar a year during 20 years, will make you drive cheap... Did you notice Andrea Rossi just show public test of his E-cat loading a battery on a microcar while it was driving - you never need to stop and load car, it just drives until mechanics break down. A 100watt generator in a Tesla model 3 will give you 10miles a day next 10 years for 250dollar. You can just add up if you like more range. |
| 23-10-2024 23:54 | |
| Into the Night★★★★★ (22812) |
Anders wrote: As long as someone is willing to converse, I will happily converse. I actually much prefer that. Anders wrote: This is an interesting attempt to separate out what is 'unclean' vs what is 'clean'. To clarify why this is won't work, consider this: Other than coal, the fuels you mention are ALL hydrocarbons. These are simply chains of carbon atoms with hydrogen atoms filling out the spare bond. The length of these chains denotes the name of the material, as in butane, hexane, septane, octane, etc. These are organic compounds. Organic chemistry is about compounds of carbon, particularly when carbon forms chains like this. Carbon itself is not organic. It is an element. Methane is just a hydrocarbon. That's natural gas. There are usually added a couple of additives: - a perfume, to allow easy detection of gas leaks (methane is normally odorless and colorless). This is typically methanthiol, which smells like rotten eggs crossed with skunks. - a catalyst used to improve the burning process, despite any contaminants in the natural gas such as water vapor. Gasoline is just hydrocarbons (typically pentane up through octane). Typically, in gasoline there are a few additives: -ethyl alcohol, made from corn or other grain, and used as a moderator (slows down the combustion reaction). This helps keep the gasoline from exploding, rather than burning smoothly, under the high pressures of the engine (typically around 90psi). -detergents, used to clean engine components and limit varnishing upon phase separation (the so-called 'old gas' problem). Such additives are added at the distribution point (where the fuel trucks pick up their load). So to say one fuel is 'clean' while another is 'dirty', when they are both hydrocarbons, is rather silly. When properly burned, the result is carbon dioxide and water. Anders wrote: I'm not talking about any middleman, and your numbers don't agree with prevailing market rates. Anders wrote: Marketing types often make grandiose statements. They are trying to sell cars. Anders wrote: They're not actually wrong outright, but they quote idealized numbers. Anders wrote: No. You see, I'm an engineer and scientist. I own a company that sells sensors for industrial control systems, including the production of both natural gas supplies and oil products, including gasoline. Anders wrote: Yes it does. But this is another story. Car makers often quote idealized numbers, such as miles per gallon, or EV range. These numbers are the ideal, under ideal conditions. Actual driving conditions are never ideal, and can include conditions that are quite harsh (such as snow, heavy rain, cold or hot temperatures, etc). EV batteries in particular are subject to many factors that reduce their range, including cold temperatures. Any battery, including lithium-ion batteries, is a chemical reaction. Like any chemical reaction, it's slower under lower temperatures. This alone reduces the effective range of the battery considerably. EVERYTHING in an EV vehicle is driven by that battery (except for the safety auxillary battery), including lights, HVAC (cabin heating and cooling), all your indicators, wipers, steering system, etc. The more you use them, the less power is available for the traction motor(s). Marketing often quotes ranges where none of these auxillary devices are being used...an idealized range (under ideal conditions). Marketing does the same kind of thing for gasoline cars, listing an ideal MPG rating (again under ideal conditions: new engine, no HVAC, no lights, no wipers, etc.) As the old saying goes, "Your mileage may vary." That is true for EV just as much as it is true for gasoline cars, but even more so since EVERYTHING depends on that battery. Under very cold temperatures, the EV battery might not even charge, due to the reduced rate of the chemical reaction required to charge it. High temperatures can also cause problems for EV batteries. They must be kept within a fairly narrow range of temperature. Too hot and they may easily go into a runaway reaction (and fire). This is why EV batteries are liquid cooled. Anders wrote: I do know how they make up their range. Test tracks under ideal conditions and using test equipment to extrapolate total range or average MPG. Anders wrote: EVs require almost (not quite) twice the energy to move the same distance. I've already explained why, and how much of that energy is lost due to waste heat. Anders wrote: So they are subsidized, and you do not pay the taxes to maintain the roads that gasoline cars do. That tax is levied at the gas pump. Anders wrote: Okay...you changed the numbers and gave me rounded off numbers. That's a randU. You are attempting to use randU numbers as 'data'. That's a fallacy. Anders wrote: Cars don't have a 'bulk price'. They are not a bulk commodity. Rice or wheat is a bulk commodity. Cars are not. Anders wrote: When you add it all up, they are quite comparable in terms of cost per mile (ignoring the far higher cost of the EV vehicle, the higher insurance costs, or the higher maintenance and repair costs). Anders wrote: You don't get to declare what is 'useful' for everyone. Omniscience fallacy. The market decides. People will buy what they want. People want to buy gasoline cars, not EVs so much. Less than 1% of the cars on the road are EVs, and the EV market has collapsed AGAIN. Both Ford and Toyota are getting out of EVs. They are the largest car manufacturers in the world. Turns out they can't make any money off of them. They simply cost too much, and people want the cheaper and more efficient gasoline car. Anders wrote: Works for me! Anders wrote: It's not cheaper. EVs are EXPENSIVE! They cost 2-3 times what a similar sized gasoline car costs. Their insurance is also EXPENSIVE, due to the cost of replacing the car, and the very limited ability to repair it (before the insurance company just writes it off completely as 'totaled'). The are EXPENSIVE to maintain, since they require specially equipped shops (like the dealer) for most maintenance and repairs, while gasoline cars can be fixed at home with fairly common tools. If you don't want to do the repair yourself, there are literally thousands of shops you can take it to. Nothing special is required for these shops. I do all my own work on my vehicles, including my cars, my aircraft, and my tractor. Anders wrote: This scammer??? Don't believe what he claims. He is well known for putting out scams. Anders wrote: Generators require fuel. I assume you mean a solar panel....? To charge a Tesla model 3 with a 100w solar panel will require approximately 80 days. Remember, the solar panel produces NOTHING at night. The Parrot Killer Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan |
| 11-01-2025 03:03 | |
| Anders☆☆☆☆☆ (36) |
Dear Intoth night, you are right in one thing, you cant get more energy than 100%. But doesnt that tell you that the figures you have been told in the past are ALL fake. When i tell you a Mercedes will run 12km/kwt it is a measurement, and this is if you produce 8kwt a liter of diesel, around 100km a liter. I know you dont like it, but electric vehicles are just so much more efficient. So if we make energy from coal to make electric cars run it is still a win...we are getting better to produce energy, and we are getting better in how we use energy. This world are getting better in every way...though we are being more people on earth who same time use more energy....humanity are getting smarter. |
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