Descending Infrared Radiation

Into the Night wrote:
So you are now trying to say the Sun is colder than the Earth?

Spongy Iris wrote:

Into the Night wrote:
So you are now trying to say the Sun is colder than the Earth?

The Sun feels hot to me when I stand in its light. But I don't think the radiation from the Sun is infrared: it is ultraviolet radiation.

My questions to you and IBdaMann, Are the reports from satellites of descending infrared radiation wrong? Or do you acknowledge they are correct?

Im a BM wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Into the Night wrote:
So you are now trying to say the Sun is colder than the Earth?

The Sun feels hot to me when I stand in its light. But I don't think the radiation from the Sun is infrared: it is ultraviolet radiation.

My questions to you and IBdaMann, Are the reports from satellites of descending infrared radiation wrong? Or do you acknowledge they are correct?

NOW I'll ask Google WTF? about "Descending Infrared Radiation".[/b]

Okay, Google's answer makes sense, and it's hardly controversial.


"'Descending Infrared Radiation' (more commonly referred to in climate science as downward longwave radiation, downwelling longwave radiation, or back radiation) refers to thermal infrared energy emitted by the atmosphere traveling downward toward the Earth's surface.

It is the measurable, physical mechanism behind the greenhouse effect."

Now I see why Spongy Iris imagined it should provoke a reaction!

Well, before I asked Google, I did mention those greenhouse gases in the atmosphere that can intercept infrared to prevent it from escaping directly to outer space. They can emit that thermal energy back out in any direction. When they do so toward the Earth's surface, apparently they call it "Descending Infrared Radiation." Who knew?

Spongy Iris wrote: The descending radiation, first hits the Earth from the Sun, bounces off the Earth, shoots up to the clouds, then bounces off the clouds back down to Earth.

Spongy Iris wrote:That is IBdaMann's and Into The Night's cue to commence mocking the ridiculous hallucination of descending infrared radiation. But they seem a bit sheepish compared to the good old days at Climate Debate.

Spongy Iris wrote:Interesting point about infrared radiation, every object above absolute zero emits infrared radiation. In other words, every known object emits infrared radiation.

IBdaMann wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote: The descending radiation, first hits the Earth from the Sun, bounces off the Earth, shoots up to the clouds, then bounces off the clouds back down to Earth.

This is all gibberish. Those who worship this religious dogma are scientifically illiterate and don't know enough to call booooolsch't.

Spongy Iris wrote:That is IBdaMann's and Into The Night's cue to commence mocking the ridiculous hallucination of descending infrared radiation. But they seem a bit sheepish compared to the good old days at Climate Debate.

It's not a matter of mocking. This crap has been debunked roughly 647 times. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics says that the cooler atmosphere cannot warm the warmer ground surface any more than you can heat your coffee with an ice cube.

Spongy Iris wrote:Interesting point about infrared radiation, every object above absolute zero emits infrared radiation. In other words, every known object emits infrared radiation.

This is correct according to the standard physics narrative, but I will make you wiser than standard physics. All bodies of matter radiate per Stefan-Boltzmann. The thermal radiation is quantized, and once the body of matter reaches a cold enough temperature, it becomes incapable of generating an infrared photon to emit.

That temperature is 14.3890 K. This is the temperature at which a body is too cold to produce infrared photons (λ = 1×10⁻³ m or shorter) and can only produce microwave photons.

Spongy Iris wrote:

Im a BM wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Into the Night wrote:
So you are now trying to say the Sun is colder than the Earth?

The Sun feels hot to me when I stand in its light. But I don't think the radiation from the Sun is infrared: it is ultraviolet radiation.

My questions to you and IBdaMann, Are the reports from satellites of descending infrared radiation wrong? Or do you acknowledge they are correct?

NOW I'll ask Google WTF? about "Descending Infrared Radiation".[/b]

Okay, Google's answer makes sense, and it's hardly controversial.


"'Descending Infrared Radiation' (more commonly referred to in climate science as downward longwave radiation, downwelling longwave radiation, or back radiation) refers to thermal infrared energy emitted by the atmosphere traveling downward toward the Earth's surface.

It is the measurable, physical mechanism behind the greenhouse effect."

Now I see why Spongy Iris imagined it should provoke a reaction!

Well, before I asked Google, I did mention those greenhouse gases in the atmosphere that can intercept infrared to prevent it from escaping directly to outer space. They can emit that thermal energy back out in any direction. When they do so toward the Earth's surface, apparently they call it "Descending Infrared Radiation." Who knew?

It is controversial at this site.

The "thettled thienth" , as our pal IBdaMann dubs it, is as you got from Google Gemini AI. I'll summarize it again in the form of a graph.

The descending radiation, first hits the Earth from the Sun, bounces off the Earth, shoots up to the clouds, then bounces off the clouds back down to Earth.

That is IBdaMann's and Into The Night's cue to commence mocking the ridiculous hallucination of descending infrared radiation. But they seem a bit sheepish compared to the good old days at Climate Debate.

I had a great chat with Gemini about radiation fog, which is the direction I thought this thread may move in. But it seems ITN already knows my MO based on his question, Is the Sun colder than the Earth??

Interesting point about infrared radiation, every object above absolute zero emits infrared radiation. In other words, every known object emits infrared radiation.

Im a BM wrote:

Okay, repeating the basic definition, Descending Infrared Radiation is heat generated within the atmosphere, where a photon of infrared light goes from a gas molecule in the atmosphere down ("descending") toward the Earth.

From cooler to hotter? Night frost can form on the ground surface even when the air is above freezing temperature because of ASCENDING infrared radiation. On a clear night with nothing to intercept that "upwelling" radiation, liguid water turns to ice as it loses its heat to the sky via emission of IR light. The air temperature above the ice is enough to melt it. The water loses heat to the sky via IR radiation faster than the air can warm the ground by conduction or convection. Heat goes from a cooler object (ice on the ground) to warmer air above it, passing through it as IR light.

Downwelling IR doesn't care about the temperature difference either. When a gas molecule in the air emits a photon of IR light, that photon doesn't decide which direction to go based on where its cooler or hotter. It is purely random which direction that photon goes out. Roughly half the time it will go more toward the Earth than away from it, as Descending Infrared Radiation. The other half of the time that photon heads more toward outer space.

Perhaps a more fundamental question is what makes a gas molecule suddenly emit a photon of infrared light. One mechanism is for IR radiation itself to be what got that gas molecule so excited it shot out a photon of IR light. That is what greenhouse gases do. They can absorb infrared light. It might just make them bounce around harder at higher temperature, or they might just emit a photon of IR light after they absorb one. Not necessarily at the same wavelength.

Greenhouse gases aren't the only gas molecules that emit IR light, but they are the ones that are good at absorbing it. Any molecule of gas (nitrogen, oxygen, etc.) can emit a photon of IR light if it gets excited enough. If it isn't a greenhouse gas molecule, it can still get excited by CONDUCTION of heat or CONVECTION of heat making it bounce around faster with more kinetic energy. It can give some of that energy to other gas molecules by whacking into them and making them bounce around a little faster. Or it might just emit a photon of infrared light. Whether that photon comes off a molecule of CO2 or N2, if its vector is heading toward the Earth's surface it is "descending" IR light.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
NOW I'll ask Google WTF? about "Descending Infrared Radiation".[/b]

Okay, Google's answer makes sense, and it's hardly controversial.

[b]Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:"'Descending Infrared Radiation' (more commonly referred to in climate science as downward longwave radiation, downwelling longwave radiation, or back radiation) refers to thermal infrared energy emitted by the atmosphere traveling downward toward the Earth's surface.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:It is the measurable, physical mechanism behind the greenhouse effect."[/b]
No gas or vapor has the capability to warm the Earth.
You cannot create energy out of nothing.
You are ignoring the 1st law of thermodynamics.

[quote]Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Now I see why Spongy Iris imagined it should provoke a reaction!

Well, before I asked Google, I did mention those greenhouse gases in the atmosphere that can intercept infrared to prevent it from escaping directly to outer space. They can emit that thermal energy back out in any direction. When they do so toward the Earth's surface, apparently they call it "Descending Infrared Radiation." Who knew?

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
It is controversial at this site.

The "thettled thienth" , as our pal IBdaMann dubs it, is as you got from Google Gemini AI. I'll summarize it again in the form of a graph.

The descending radiation, first hits the Earth from the Sun, bounces off the Earth, shoots up to the clouds, then bounces off the clouds back down to Earth.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Okay, repeating the basic definition, Descending Infrared Radiation is heat generated within the atmosphere, where a photon of infrared light goes from a gas molecule in the atmosphere down ("descending") toward the Earth.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
From cooler to hotter? Night frost can form on the ground surface even when the air is above freezing temperature because of ASCENDING infrared radiation. On a clear night with nothing to intercept that "upwelling" radiation, liguid water turns to ice as it loses its heat to the sky via emission of IR light. The air temperature above the ice is enough to melt it. The water loses heat to the sky via IR radiation faster than the air can warm the ground by conduction or convection. Heat goes from a cooler object (ice on the ground) to warmer air above it, passing through it as IR light.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Downwelling IR doesn't care about the temperature difference either. When a gas molecule in the air emits a photon of IR light, that photon doesn't decide which direction to go based on where its cooler or hotter. It is purely random which direction that photon goes out. Roughly half the time it will go more toward the Earth than away from it, as Descending Infrared Radiation. The other half of the time that photon heads more toward outer space.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Perhaps a more fundamental question is what makes a gas molecule suddenly emit a photon of infrared light. One mechanism is for IR radiation itself to be what got that gas molecule so excited it shot out a photon of IR light. That is what greenhouse gases do. They can absorb infrared light. It might just make them bounce around harder at higher temperature, or they might just emit a photon of IR light after they absorb one. Not necessarily at the same wavelength.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Greenhouse gases aren't the only gas molecules that emit IR light, but they are the ones that are good at absorbing it. Any molecule of gas (nitrogen, oxygen, etc.) can emit a photon of IR light if it gets excited enough. If it isn't a greenhouse gas molecule, it can still get excited by CONDUCTION of heat or CONVECTION of heat making it bounce around faster with more kinetic energy. It can give some of that energy to other gas molecules by whacking into them and making them bounce around a little faster. Or it might just emit a photon of infrared light. Whether that photon comes off a molecule of CO2 or N2, if its vector is heading toward the Earth's surface it is "descending" IR light.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
But the chances of any rational discussion about greenhouse gases or greenhouse effect getting out the starting gate are not good at this website.

There are two trolls in particular who seem to have dedicated their lives to the heroic cause of preventing any such discussion from staying on topic.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
P.S. Spongy Iris, your question about "What is the body of matter emitting infrared radiation down toward Earth?" doesn't seem to be specific about Descending Infrared Radiation. The sun is certainly an IR emitting body of matter raining heat down on our planet, but that infrared light is not emitted from within the atmosphere, as per the definition of Descending Infrared Radiation. The atmosphere itself is the body of matter emitting the IR photons in question. Greenhouse gas molecules play a special role as IR interceptors. Any old gas molecule in the atmosphere can get excited enough to emit infrared infrared radiation if it gets hot enough. Depending on which direction that photon of infrared light goes out, it might be Descending Infrared Radiation. One way or another, it refers to infrared radiation emitted from within the atmosphere.

Spongy Iris wrote:
Let us now look at the overnight phenomenon of radiation fog.

Here is a pic of radiation fog I snapped on 12/21/20 at 7:35 a.m. a few minutes after sunrise.



Are you saying all that water seen in the air evaporated overnight from the ground?

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
NOW I'll ask Google WTF? about "Descending Infrared Radiation".[/b]

Okay, Google's answer makes sense, and it's hardly controversial.

You are not Google.
You cannot become Google.
Science is not an 'AI' program.
Science is not a search engine.
Science is not a website.
You cannot heat a warmer object with a colder one. You are again ignoring the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
You cannot create energy out of nothing. You are again ignoring the 1st law of thermodynamics.

[b]Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:"'Descending Infrared Radiation' (more commonly referred to in climate science as downward longwave radiation, downwelling longwave radiation, or back radiation) refers to thermal infrared energy emitted by the atmosphere traveling downward toward the Earth's surface.

Climate is not science.
You cannot heat a warmer object with a colder one.
You are ignoring the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
You cannot create energy out of nothing.
You are ignoring the 1st law of thermodynamics.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:It is the measurable, physical mechanism behind the greenhouse effect."[/b]
No gas or vapor has the capability to warm the Earth.
You cannot create energy out of nothing.
You are ignoring the 1st law of thermodynamics.

[quote]Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Now I see why Spongy Iris imagined it should provoke a reaction!

Well, before I asked Google, I did mention those greenhouse gases in the atmosphere that can intercept infrared to prevent it from escaping directly to outer space. They can emit that thermal energy back out in any direction. When they do so toward the Earth's surface, apparently they call it "Descending Infrared Radiation." Who knew?

No gas or vapor has the capability to warm the Earth.
You cannot create energy out of nothing.
You are ignoring the 1st law of thermodynamics.
You cannot heat a warmer object with a colder one.
You are ignoring the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
You cannot trap light.
You cannot trap heat.
You cannot trap thermal energy. There is always heat.
You are ignoring the Stefan-Boltzmann law again.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
It is controversial at this site.

The "thettled thienth" , as our pal IBdaMann dubs it, is as you got from Google Gemini AI. I'll summarize it again in the form of a graph.

The descending radiation, first hits the Earth from the Sun, bounces off the Earth, shoots up to the clouds, then bounces off the clouds back down to Earth.

You cannot heat a warmer object with a colder one. You are ignoring the 2nd law of thermodynamics again.
You cannot trap light. You are ignoring the Stefan-Boltzmann law again.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Okay, repeating the basic definition, Descending Infrared Radiation is heat generated within the atmosphere, where a photon of infrared light goes from a gas molecule in the atmosphere down ("descending") toward the Earth.

Light is not heat.
Heat is not contained in anything.
Heat has no temperature.
Go learn what 'heat' means.
You cannot heat a warmer object with a colder one.
You are ignoring the 2nd law of thermodynamics again.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
From cooler to hotter? Night frost can form on the ground surface even when the air is above freezing temperature because of ASCENDING infrared radiation. On a clear night with nothing to intercept that "upwelling" radiation, liguid water turns to ice as it loses its heat to the sky via emission of IR light. The air temperature above the ice is enough to melt it. The water loses heat to the sky via IR radiation faster than the air can warm the ground by conduction or convection. Heat goes from a cooler object (ice on the ground) to warmer air above it, passing through it as IR light.

Frost is not light.
You cannot trap light.
You cannot heat a warmer object with a colder one.
You are ignoring the Stefan-Boltzmann law again.
You are ignoring the 2nd law of themodynamics again.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Downwelling IR doesn't care about the temperature difference either. When a gas molecule in the air emits a photon of IR light, that photon doesn't decide which direction to go based on where its cooler or hotter. It is purely random which direction that photon goes out. Roughly half the time it will go more toward the Earth than away from it, as Descending Infrared Radiation. The other half of the time that photon heads more toward outer space.

You cannot heat a warmer object with a colder one.
You are ignoring the 2nd law of thermodynamics again.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Perhaps a more fundamental question is what makes a gas molecule suddenly emit a photon of infrared light. One mechanism is for IR radiation itself to be what got that gas molecule so excited it shot out a photon of IR light. That is what greenhouse gases do. They can absorb infrared light. It might just make them bounce around harder at higher temperature, or they might just emit a photon of IR light after they absorb one. Not necessarily at the same wavelength.

You are ignoring the Stefan-Boltzmann law again.
The Stefan-Boltzmann law does not have a 'substance' factor.
All materials absorb infrared light.
Light has no temperature.
You cannot create energy out of nothing.
You are ignoring the 1st law of thermodynamics again.
All infrared light is in the same band of frequencies.
An absorbed photon is DESTROYED. They do not 'bounce'.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Greenhouse gases aren't the only gas molecules that emit IR light, but they are the ones that are good at absorbing it. Any molecule of gas (nitrogen, oxygen, etc.) can emit a photon of IR light if it gets excited enough. If it isn't a greenhouse gas molecule, it can still get excited by CONDUCTION of heat or CONVECTION of heat making it bounce around faster with more kinetic energy. It can give some of that energy to other gas molecules by whacking into them and making them bounce around a little faster. Or it might just emit a photon of infrared light. Whether that photon comes off a molecule of CO2 or N2, if its vector is heading toward the Earth's surface it is "descending" IR light.

All materials both absorb and emit light.
You are ignoring Planck's law.
You are ignoring the Stefan-Boltzmann law.
You are ignoring quantum mechanics.
You cannot create energy out of nothing.
You are ignoring the 1st law of thermodynamics again.
You cannot heat a warmer object with a colder one.
You are ignoring the 2nd law of thermodynamics again.
You cannot trap light.
You cannot trap heat.
You cannot trap thermal energy. There is always heat.
You cannot create energy out of nothing.
No gas or vapor has the capability to warm the Earth.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
But the chances of any rational discussion about greenhouse gases or greenhouse effect getting out the starting gate are not good at this website.

There are two trolls in particular who seem to have dedicated their lives to the heroic cause of preventing any such discussion from staying on topic.

No gas or vapor has the capability to warm the Earth.
You are ignoring the 1st law of thermodynamics again.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
P.S. Spongy Iris, your question about "What is the body of matter emitting infrared radiation down toward Earth?" doesn't seem to be specific about Descending Infrared Radiation. The sun is certainly an IR emitting body of matter raining heat down on our planet, but that infrared light is not emitted from within the atmosphere, as per the definition of Descending Infrared Radiation. The atmosphere itself is the body of matter emitting the IR photons in question. Greenhouse gas molecules play a special role as IR interceptors. Any old gas molecule in the atmosphere can get excited enough to emit infrared infrared radiation if it gets hot enough. Depending on which direction that photon of infrared light goes out, it might be Descending Infrared Radiation. One way or another, it refers to infrared radiation emitted from within the atmosphere.

Heat is not an object.
ALL materials absorb infrared light.
You are ignoring quantum mechanics again.
ALL materials emit light.
You are ignoring the Stefan-Boltzmann law again.
You cannot heat a warmer surface using a colder gas.
You are ignoring the 2nd law of thermodynamics again.

Into the Night wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:
Let us now look at the overnight phenomenon of radiation fog.

Here is a pic of radiation fog I snapped on 12/21/20 at 7:35 a.m. a few minutes after sunrise.



Are you saying all that water seen in the air evaporated overnight from the ground?

This is called 'advection fog'. It often forms over moist areas as the air cools at night. The ground is warmer, so any evaporation of that water condenses close to the ground as that water vapor is cooled. The evaporation is carried upward by convection.

Fog and clouds are liquid water (or ice, such as you see in a cirrus cloud).

It is why you typically see such fog develop somewhat above the ground, then later become thicker and actually touch the ground. Once the surface of the ground cools enough, convection stops, and with it, the formation of fog.

Dew is formed overnight as moisture is condensed out of the air and later touches the ground as fog (yes, you can even get this in the desert).

Frost may form if the fog so formed freezes. As it contacts the ground and other objects (like trees, cars, etc) it leaves a layer of frost (otherwise known as rime ice).

Just to the east of Portland, OR, is the Gorge. This is an opening in the Cascade range allowing cold air from Eastern Oregon to flow westward into the moisture laden Western Oregon.

This sets up a cold front, moving the warm moist air aloft. This can start precipitation (typically a light rain or drizzle, but it can be quite substantial). Is the rain descends through the colder air beneath it (cold fronts often cause a temperature inversion like this), it freezes. The result is freezing rain...an ice storm that can literally glue parked cars to the road, and turns the roads themselves into sheets of black ice.

Such an 'ice machine' can set up anywhere along the Cascades, but because of the Gorge, Portland, OR is particularly susceptible to it.

A fast moving cold front can cause some truly spectacular weather, including tornado activity. Fortunately for Portland, the cold air coming out of the Gorge is rarely fast moving.

Im a BM wrote:
Spongy Iris, your question about "What is the body of matter emitting infrared radiation down toward Earth?" doesn't seem to be specific about Descending Infrared Radiation. The sun is certainly an IR emitting body of matter raining heat down on our planet, but that infrared light is not emitted from within the atmosphere, as per the definition of Descending Infrared Radiation. The atmosphere itself is the body of matter emitting the IR photons in question. Greenhouse gas molecules play a special role as IR interceptors. Any old gas molecule in the atmosphere can get excited enough to emit infrared infrared radiation if it gets hot enough. Depending on which direction that photon of infrared light goes out, it might be Descending Infrared Radiation. One way or another, it refers to infrared radiation emitted from within the atmosphere.

Spongy Iris wrote:

Im a BM wrote:
Spongy Iris, your question about "What is the body of matter emitting infrared radiation down toward Earth?" doesn't seem to be specific about Descending Infrared Radiation. The sun is certainly an IR emitting body of matter raining heat down on our planet, but that infrared light is not emitted from within the atmosphere, as per the definition of Descending Infrared Radiation. The atmosphere itself is the body of matter emitting the IR photons in question. Greenhouse gas molecules play a special role as IR interceptors. Any old gas molecule in the atmosphere can get excited enough to emit infrared infrared radiation if it gets hot enough. Depending on which direction that photon of infrared light goes out, it might be Descending Infrared Radiation. One way or another, it refers to infrared radiation emitted from within the atmosphere.

The radiation coming from the Sun is ultraviolet.

When the ultraviolet radiation hits a cold object, for example Heaven or Earth, then those bodies of matter are what emit infrared radiation.

I understand you can go ask Gemini, and it will tell you the Sun emits both infrared and ultraviolet radiation.

Into the Night wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Im a BM wrote:
Spongy Iris, your question about "What is the body of matter emitting infrared radiation down toward Earth?" doesn't seem to be specific about Descending Infrared Radiation. The sun is certainly an IR emitting body of matter raining heat down on our planet, but that infrared light is not emitted from within the atmosphere, as per the definition of Descending Infrared Radiation. The atmosphere itself is the body of matter emitting the IR photons in question. Greenhouse gas molecules play a special role as IR interceptors. Any old gas molecule in the atmosphere can get excited enough to emit infrared infrared radiation if it gets hot enough. Depending on which direction that photon of infrared light goes out, it might be Descending Infrared Radiation. One way or another, it refers to infrared radiation emitted from within the atmosphere.

The radiation coming from the Sun is ultraviolet.

When the ultraviolet radiation hits a cold object, for example Heaven or Earth, then those bodies of matter are what emit infrared radiation.

I understand you can go ask Gemini, and it will tell you the Sun emits both infrared and ultraviolet radiation.

The radiation from the Sun covers a wide spectrum, including radio, infrared, visible light, UV (all three subbands), and even X rays.
Most of the energy emitted by the Sun is infrared.

Absorbing UV light does not heat an object.
Absorbing infrared light does heat an object IF the object is cooler than the source of infrared light. No object will absorb any light that is less energy than the object itself already has.

Spongy Iris wrote:

Im a BM wrote:
Spongy Iris, your question about "What is the body of matter emitting infrared radiation down toward Earth?" doesn't seem to be specific about Descending Infrared Radiation. The sun is certainly an IR emitting body of matter raining heat down on our planet, but that infrared light is not emitted from within the atmosphere, as per the definition of Descending Infrared Radiation. The atmosphere itself is the body of matter emitting the IR photons in question. Greenhouse gas molecules play a special role as IR interceptors. Any old gas molecule in the atmosphere can get excited enough to emit infrared infrared radiation if it gets hot enough. Depending on which direction that photon of infrared light goes out, it might be Descending Infrared Radiation. One way or another, it refers to infrared radiation emitted from within the atmosphere.

The radiation coming from the Sun is ultraviolet.

When the ultraviolet radiation hits a cold object, for example Heaven or Earth, then those bodies of matter are what emit infrared radiation.

I understand you can go ask Gemini, and it will tell you the Sun emits both infrared and ultraviolet radiation.

Spongy Iris wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Im a BM wrote:
Spongy Iris, your question about "What is the body of matter emitting infrared radiation down toward Earth?" doesn't seem to be specific about Descending Infrared Radiation. The sun is certainly an IR emitting body of matter raining heat down on our planet, but that infrared light is not emitted from within the atmosphere, as per the definition of Descending Infrared Radiation. The atmosphere itself is the body of matter emitting the IR photons in question. Greenhouse gas molecules play a special role as IR interceptors. Any old gas molecule in the atmosphere can get excited enough to emit infrared infrared radiation if it gets hot enough. Depending on which direction that photon of infrared light goes out, it might be Descending Infrared Radiation. One way or another, it refers to infrared radiation emitted from within the atmosphere.

The radiation coming from the Sun is ultraviolet.

When the ultraviolet radiation hits a cold object, for example Heaven or Earth, then those bodies of matter are what emit infrared radiation.

I understand you can go ask Gemini, and it will tell you the Sun emits both infrared and ultraviolet radiation.

Whoopsies, I won't argue the Sun doesn't really emit IR. I got tunnel vision thinking radiation is just about hot and cold.

My point is, within the atmosphere, after the Sun sets, or during polar night, there is descending IR, that chills Earth.

It isn't hot air playing ping pong between the Earth and the clouds. It seems much more plausible, that when the Earth heats up from the Sun, the hot air that rises gets completely overwhelmed by the cold IR descending.

The picture of radiation fog was intended to drive this point home more intuitively.

Into the Night wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Im a BM wrote:
Spongy Iris, your question about "What is the body of matter emitting infrared radiation down toward Earth?" doesn't seem to be specific about Descending Infrared Radiation. The sun is certainly an IR emitting body of matter raining heat down on our planet, but that infrared light is not emitted from within the atmosphere, as per the definition of Descending Infrared Radiation. The atmosphere itself is the body of matter emitting the IR photons in question. Greenhouse gas molecules play a special role as IR interceptors. Any old gas molecule in the atmosphere can get excited enough to emit infrared infrared radiation if it gets hot enough. Depending on which direction that photon of infrared light goes out, it might be Descending Infrared Radiation. One way or another, it refers to infrared radiation emitted from within the atmosphere.

The radiation coming from the Sun is ultraviolet.

When the ultraviolet radiation hits a cold object, for example Heaven or Earth, then those bodies of matter are what emit infrared radiation.

I understand you can go ask Gemini, and it will tell you the Sun emits both infrared and ultraviolet radiation.

Whoopsies, I won't argue the Sun doesn't really emit IR. I got tunnel vision thinking radiation is just about hot and cold.

My point is, within the atmosphere, after the Sun sets, or during polar night, there is descending IR, that chills Earth.

It isn't hot air playing ping pong between the Earth and the clouds. It seems much more plausible, that when the Earth heats up from the Sun, the hot air that rises gets completely overwhelmed by the cold IR descending.

The picture of radiation fog was intended to drive this point home more intuitively.

Infrared light has no temperature. There is no such thing as 'cold' IR.
Advection fog (what the weather service calls it) is caused by moisture from wet and warmer land rising into a colder air above it and condensing out as liquid water. It is the wet land cooling off by convective heating.

It often forms in mountain valleys. When the Sun rises the next morning, it starts to 'burn off' the fog (heating the water laden air until it vaporizes again).

Fog tends to develop where it's wet (like mountain valleys and their rivers), and as the air cools faster than the land does.

Air can be heated and cooled faster than ocean or land simply because it has less mass per volume than either.

The land absorbs infrared light better for exactly the same reason.

Fog blocks and scatters light, so the morning chill tends to stay a bit longer in foggy areas.

Spongy Iris wrote:
As earlier stated, all known objects emit IR. Hot coffee filled with ice is gonna get cold fast from the IR emitted by the ice.

Spongy Iris wrote:
The fog we are talking about is also called radiation fog, and tule fog.

Spongy Iris wrote:
It doesn't have to be just like NorCal valley terrain for it to form.

Spongy Iris wrote:
A close climate equivalent to NorCal at Christmas is Saskatchewan at Michaelmas. Check out this fog in September in the great prairie land of Moosejaw Saskatchewan.

https://discovermoosejaw.com/articles/fog-advisory-issued-for-moose-jaw-3

The SK fog pictured in that article looks thicker than the CA fog I pictured earlier.

Spongy Iris wrote:
The air is usually quite a lot colder than the soil at these respective times of the year and geographies.

Spongy Iris wrote:
I basically compare it to putting a glass of tap water in the fridge at nightfall. How much water would evaporate over night? Way less than 1% of it.

Spongy Iris wrote:
But radiation fog tends to form overnight, when any additional evaporation happening is negligible.

Spongy Iris wrote:
Of course there is still the moisture lingering.

Spongy Iris wrote:
But if there wasn't any fog in the day, why would it form overnight when the sun rays aren't hardly triggering a fart in a windstorms worth of extra evaporation.

Spongy Iris wrote:
It looks to me it is cold air falling on hotter wet land to trigger the fog.

Spongy Iris wrote:
It is not so much hot air rising, at least not overnight, in chilly fall SK, or winter, CA.

Spongy Iris wrote:
Convection is the transfer of heat and moisture through the upward & downward movement of a fluid like air or water.

Spongy Iris wrote:
In these examples, the hot air may push up quite a ways in the day, but at night time, the cold air dominates the push down. And the meeting of the cold above, with the hot below, is what triggers the radiation fog.

Spongy Iris wrote: So when satellites detect descending infrared radiation, they cannot be detecting radiation which the Earth emitted to the clouds, which then bounced off the clouds and descended back to Earth, of course.

Spongy Iris wrote:But they also cannot be detecting infrared radiation from the Sun, because the Sun emits ultraviolet radiation, yes?

Spongy Iris wrote:So what is the body of matter emitting infrared radiation down to Earth?

Spongy Iris wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Im a BM wrote:
Spongy Iris, your question about "What is the body of matter emitting infrared radiation down toward Earth?" doesn't seem to be specific about Descending Infrared Radiation. The sun is certainly an IR emitting body of matter raining heat down on our planet, but that infrared light is not emitted from within the atmosphere, as per the definition of Descending Infrared Radiation. The atmosphere itself is the body of matter emitting the IR photons in question. Greenhouse gas molecules play a special role as IR interceptors. Any old gas molecule in the atmosphere can get excited enough to emit infrared infrared radiation if it gets hot enough. Depending on which direction that photon of infrared light goes out, it might be Descending Infrared Radiation. One way or another, it refers to infrared radiation emitted from within the atmosphere.

The radiation coming from the Sun is ultraviolet.

When the ultraviolet radiation hits a cold object, for example Heaven or Earth, then those bodies of matter are what emit infrared radiation.

I understand you can go ask Gemini, and it will tell you the Sun emits both infrared and ultraviolet radiation.

The radiation from the Sun covers a wide spectrum, including radio, infrared, visible light, UV (all three subbands), and even X rays.
Most of the energy emitted by the Sun is infrared.

Absorbing UV light does not heat an object.
Absorbing infrared light does heat an object IF the object is cooler than the source of infrared light. No object will absorb any light that is less energy than the object itself already has.

I got sidetracked with UV radiation.

There is a wide hot and cold spectrum on just infrared radiation.

I started this thread to focus on the cold descending IR that causes overnight radiation fog.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Maybe getting "sidetracked with UV radiation" is a good thing.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
UV radiation played a MAJOR role in the history of life on this planet.

For most of Earth's history, there was no ozone layer shielding the surface from most of the UV light arriving from the sun.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Up until about five hundred million years ago, there was virtually no life on the surface of the Earth's continents. There was plenty of life underground, but anything on the surface was exposed to deadly UV light which killed it.

On the other hand, 3500 million years ago life was already taking advantage of the few benefits that so much UV light hitting the surface had to offer.

Even today, there is enough UV getting through that ozone layer to make it dangerous for white people to stay out in the sun too long.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
3500 million years ago, the intensity of UV radiation hitting the Earth's surface was enough to photo oxidize a bunch of manganese(II) into manganese(IV). That manganese(IV) could be used by manganese-reducing, hydrogen-oxidizing bacteria as a terminal electron acceptor. Mn(IV) was used as oxidant by the bacteria to get energy from the oxidation of hydrogen, H2.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Here is the coolest part of the story!

One day a new mutant bacteria was born, and he performed his manganese reduction and hydrogen oxidation slightly differently. Instead of continuously scrounging for more manganese(IV) generated by UV radiation, he kept the manganese(II) product inside his body. He moved his body to where the sunlight UV could oxidize the manganese(II) that he retained inside his body back to the useful manganese(IV) form. He was the proto chloroplast and he was the ancestor to the very first cyanobacteria. What he was doing wasn't really photosynthesis, but it depended on solar UV energy to photooxidize Mn.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
The leap to oxygenic photosynthesis, creating the O2 that would eventually enable the Earth to form an UV-shielding ozone layer, wasn't until after the hydrogen basically ran out. When they could no longer find hydrogen anymore, they would have to make their own. One way to make hydrogen is to split a water molecule, H2O, into separate H2 and O2. Manganese(IV) isn't a strong enough oxidant to do that. But in the chloroplast at the photosystem reaction center, enough light energy in the blue and red range could be funneled in to oxidize manganese(II) well beyond manganese(IV). One of the higher oxidation states of manganese, Mn(VII), is a strong enough oxidant to turn trivalent chromium into hexavalent chromium. And it can tear a water molecule apart, creating the useful H2 needed for photosynthesis, along with O2 "waste" product.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
After about 3000 million years of cyanobacteria putting out O2, especially picking up steam about 2500 million years ago... Eventually it rusted away enough iron to allow free oxygen to have more than a very brief half life in the atmosphere. This resulted in the "Cambrian Explosion" of aerobic lines of animals evolving in the sea. And finally, when high enough concentrations of free oxygen accumulated in the atmosphere, it formed an ozone layer. That is when it became possible for plants and animals to come out of the sea and survive on the surface of the continents without getting fried by UV.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Additional edit required after I reviewed this:

I notice that Into the Night makes the claim, "Most of the energy emitted by the sun is infrared."

I'll let Google set the record straight.

Google inquiry: "Is most of the energy emitted by the sun infrared?"

Google knows, as I do, why Into the Night is WRONG.

Google say: "Visible light is the single largest category of energy emitted by the sun, making up about 43% to 49% of its total output, though infrared is a very close second.."

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
But don't forget, this is just the sunlight that hits to TOP of the atmosphere. What gets through to the ground is another story.

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Maybe getting "sidetracked with UV radiation" is a good thing.

UV light is not thermal energy.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
UV radiation played a MAJOR role in the history of life on this planet.

For most of Earth's history, there was no ozone layer shielding the surface from most of the UV light arriving from the sun.

Go learn what creates and destroys ozone, Robert.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Up until about five hundred million years ago, there was virtually no life on the surface of the Earth's continents. There was plenty of life underground, but anything on the surface was exposed to deadly UV light which killed it.

On the other hand, 3500 million years ago life was already taking advantage of the few benefits that so much UV light hitting the surface had to offer.

Even today, there is enough UV getting through that ozone layer to make it dangerous for white people to stay out in the sun too long.

You don't know what happened five hundred million years ago.
The ozone layer decomposes each night and is built up again each day.
It is perfectly safe to be out during the day for hours once the ozone layer has built for the day. At that point, UV-B light, which causes sunburn, is completely absorbed by the ozone layer.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
3500 million years ago, the intensity of UV radiation hitting the Earth's surface was enough to photo oxidize a bunch of manganese(II) into manganese(IV). That manganese(IV) could be used by manganese-reducing, hydrogen-oxidizing bacteria as a terminal electron acceptor. Mn(IV) was used as oxidant by the bacteria to get energy from the oxidation of hydrogen, H2.

Manganese is not oxygen.
Manganese cannot be reduced.
Hydrogen is not oxygen.
Oxygen is not a bacterium.
There is no such thing as a 'terminal electron acceptor'.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Here is the coolest part of the story!

One day a new mutant bacteria was born, and he performed his manganese reduction and hydrogen oxidation slightly differently. Instead of continuously scrounging for more manganese(IV) generated by UV radiation, he kept the manganese(II) product inside his body. He moved his body to where the sunlight UV could oxidize the manganese(II) that he retained inside his body back to the useful manganese(IV) form. He was the proto chloroplast and he was the ancestor to the very first cyanobacteria. What he was doing wasn't really photosynthesis, but it depended on solar UV energy to photooxidize Mn.

Bacteria are not born.
Manganese cannot be reduced.
Hydrogen is not oxygen.
Manganese is not oxygen.
Manganese is not created by UV light.
Manganese isnot a bacterium.
Bacteria do not fly.
Cyano is not a chemical.
Cyano is not a bacterium.
Manganese is not photosensitive.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
The leap to oxygenic photosynthesis, creating the O2 that would eventually enable the Earth to form an UV-shielding ozone layer, wasn't until after the hydrogen basically ran out. When they could no longer find hydrogen anymore, they would have to make their own. One way to make hydrogen is to split a water molecule, H2O, into separate H2 and O2. Manganese(IV) isn't a strong enough oxidant to do that. But in the chloroplast at the photosystem reaction center, enough light energy in the blue and red range could be funneled in to oxidize manganese(II) well beyond manganese(IV). One of the higher oxidation states of manganese, Mn(VII), is a strong enough oxidant to turn trivalent chromium into hexavalent chromium. And it can tear a water molecule apart, creating the useful H2 needed for photosynthesis, along with O2 "waste" product.

Oxygenic is not a word.
Manganese is not photosensitive.
Manganese is not oxygen.
Manganese does not create oxygen.
Hydrogen is not oxygen.
Hydrogen did not 'run out'.
Hydrogen is not created by a bacterium.
Manganese does not create hydrogen.
Chromium is not a valent.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
After about 3000 million years of cyanobacteria putting out O2, especially picking up steam about 2500 million years ago... Eventually it rusted away enough iron to allow free oxygen to have more than a very brief half life in the atmosphere. This resulted in the "Cambrian Explosion" of aerobic lines of animals evolving in the sea. And finally, when high enough concentrations of free oxygen accumulated in the atmosphere, it formed an ozone layer. That is when it became possible for plants and animals to come out of the sea and survive on the surface of the continents without getting fried by UV.

You don't know what happened 3000 million years ago.
Cyano is not a chemical.
Cyano is not a bacterium.
Oxygen is not created by a bacterium.
Oxygen is not steam.
You don't know what happened 2500 million years ago.
Cambria is not an explosion.
Evolution is not the ocean.
Oxygen is not created by a bacterium.
UV light doesn't fry anything.
UV light has no temperature.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Additional edit required after I reviewed this:

I notice that Into the Night makes the claim, "Most of the energy emitted by the sun is infrared."

I'll let Google set the record straight.

Google inquiry: "Is most of the energy emitted by the sun infrared?"

Google knows, as I do, why Into the Night is WRONG.

Google say: "Visible light is the single largest category of energy emitted by the sun, making up about 43% to 49% of its total output, though infrared is a very close second.."

You are not Google.
You cannot become Google.
Most of the light from the Sun is infrared light.
You are ignoring Planck's Law again.
You are ignoring Wien's Law again.
You are ignoring Henry's Law again.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
But don't forget, this is just the sunlight that hits to TOP of the atmosphere. What gets through to the ground is another story.

Visible light reaches the surface.
infrared light reaches the surface.
UV-A light reaches the surface. (This causes tanning in humans).
UV-B light is mostly absorbed by the atmosphere, but some reaches the surface in the morning before the ozone layer builds up for the day. (This causes sunburn, which takes a few hours for symtoms to appear).
UV-C light is completely absorbed by the atmosphere.
X-Rays are completely absorbed by the atmosphere as are all higher frequencies of light.
Radio waves are absorbed or passed by the atmosphere depending on the frequency.
Frequencies less than 5Mhz do not reach the surface, as they are blocked by the atmosphere.

The atmosphere is part of Earth.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
In his typical "Gish Gallop" fashion, Into the Night has taken a HUGE dump of parrot poop here.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:Let's just tear ONE point apart.

"Manganese is not photosensitive." - Into the Night

This is not a trivial point!

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Oxygenic photosynthesis, what most plants on Earth do, is highly dependent on the photosensitivity of manganese. There is a manganese atom suspended in a porphyrin ring at the reaction center where light get funneled in the chloroplast. Without it, photosynthesis a we know it could not generate oxygen.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:

Help us out here, Google!

Google inquiry: "Is manganese photosensitive?"


I haven't actually looked it up, but I'm about to and I already know this one..

Boy, does Google have a lot to say about THIS one!

I won't try to copy the whole answer, but here are some highlights:

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Depending on the context, manganese demonstrates photosensitivity in several major ways.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:


1. Solarization and Fluorescence in Glass

(not relevant to this particular discussion)

[b]Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
2. Biology and Photosynthesis

Manganese plays a fundamental, light-sensitive role in nature:

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
* The Water-splitting Complex: In plants and algae, a cluster of four manganese ions forms the core of the oxygen-forming complex in Photosystem II. This biological complex is inherently photosensitive; it absorbs light energy to split water into oxygen, but also suffers photoinhibition (light-induced damage) if the light intensity is too high.

* Manganese Enzymes: (not directly relevant to discussion at hand)

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
3. Materials Science and PhotoCORMS

(two sections, also not relevant here)"[/b]

When Google and Into the Night disagree, there is very little doubt about which one is better informed to have the basis for a correct understanding.

YES, manganese is photosensitive, and most life on Earth depends on that!

[b]Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
NO, Into the Night is NOT a "chemist" and should STOP his fraudulent charade![/b]

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
In his typical "Gish Gallop" fashion, Into the Night has taken a HUGE dump of parrot poop here.

Fallacy fallacy.
Inversion fallacy.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:Let's just tear ONE point apart.

"Manganese is not photosensitive." - Into the Night

This is not a trivial point!

Never said it was, Robert.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Oxygenic photosynthesis, what most plants on Earth do, is highly dependent on the photosensitivity of manganese. There is a manganese atom suspended in a porphyrin ring at the reaction center where light get funneled in the chloroplast. Without it, photosynthesis a we know it could not generate oxygen.

Oxygen is not photosensitive.
Manganese is not photosensitive.
Manganese is not oxygen.
Porphyrin is not a chemical.
Chloroplast is not a chemical.
Manganese does not create oxygen.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:

Help us out here, Google!

Google inquiry: "Is manganese photosensitive?"


I haven't actually looked it up, but I'm about to and I already know this one..

Boy, does Google have a lot to say about THIS one!

I won't try to copy the whole answer, but here are some highlights:

You are not Google.
You cannot become Google.
Science is not Google.
Science is not AI.
Science is not a search engine.
Science is not a website.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
Depending on the context, manganese demonstrates photosensitivity in several major ways.

There is no 'context'. Manganese is not photosensitive.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:


1. Solarization and Fluorescence in Glass

(not relevant to this particular discussion)

Manganese is not glass.

[b]Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
2. Biology and Photosynthesis

Manganese plays a fundamental, light-sensitive role in nature:

Manganese is not photosensitive.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
* The Water-splitting Complex: In plants and algae, a cluster of four manganese ions forms the core of the oxygen-forming complex in Photosystem II. This biological complex is inherently photosensitive; it absorbs light energy to split water into oxygen, but also suffers photoinhibition (light-induced damage) if the light intensity is too high.

* Manganese Enzymes: (not directly relevant to discussion at hand)

Manganese does not split water.
Manganese is not a plant.
Manganese is not algae.
Manganese is not a cluster.
Manganese is not oxygen.
Manganese is not photosensitive.
There is no such thing as 'photoinhibition'.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
3. Materials Science and PhotoCORMS

(two sections, also not relevant here)"[/b]

When Google and Into the Night disagree, there is very little doubt about which one is better informed to have the basis for a correct understanding.

YES, manganese is photosensitive, and most life on Earth depends on that!

Manganese is not photosensitive.
Manganese is not a life form.

[b]Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGoogle wrote:
NO, Into the Night is NOT a "chemist" and should STOP his fraudulent charade![/b]

You cannot blame your denial of chemistry and science or your illiteracy on anybody else, Robert. Inversion fallacy.

Im a BM wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Im a BM wrote:
Spongy Iris, your question about "What is the body of matter emitting infrared radiation down toward Earth?" doesn't seem to be specific about Descending Infrared Radiation. The sun is certainly an IR emitting body of matter raining heat down on our planet, but that infrared light is not emitted from within the atmosphere, as per the definition of Descending Infrared Radiation. The atmosphere itself is the body of matter emitting the IR photons in question. Greenhouse gas molecules play a special role as IR interceptors. Any old gas molecule in the atmosphere can get excited enough to emit infrared infrared radiation if it gets hot enough. Depending on which direction that photon of infrared light goes out, it might be Descending Infrared Radiation. One way or another, it refers to infrared radiation emitted from within the atmosphere.

The radiation coming from the Sun is ultraviolet.

When the ultraviolet radiation hits a cold object, for example Heaven or Earth, then those bodies of matter are what emit infrared radiation.

I understand you can go ask Gemini, and it will tell you the Sun emits both infrared and ultraviolet radiation.

The radiation from the Sun covers a wide spectrum, including radio, infrared, visible light, UV (all three subbands), and even X rays.
Most of the energy emitted by the Sun is infrared.

Absorbing UV light does not heat an object.
Absorbing infrared light does heat an object IF the object is cooler than the source of infrared light. No object will absorb any light that is less energy than the object itself already has.

I got sidetracked with UV radiation.

There is a wide hot and cold spectrum on just infrared radiation.

I started this thread to focus on the cold descending IR that causes overnight radiation fog.

Maybe getting "sidetracked with UV radiation" is a good thing.

UV radiation played a MAJOR role in the history of life on this planet.

For most of Earth's history, there was no ozone layer shielding the surface from most of the UV light arriving from the sun.

Up until about five hundred million years ago, there was virtually no life on the surface of the Earth's continents. There was plenty of life underground, but anything on the surface was exposed to deadly UV light which killed it.

On the other hand, 3500 million years ago life was already taking advantage of the few benefits that so much UV light hitting the surface had to offer.

Even today, there is enough UV getting through that ozone layer to make it dangerous for white people to stay out in the sun too long.

3500 million years ago, the intensity of UV radiation hitting the Earth's surface was enough to photo oxidize a bunch of manganese(II) into manganese(IV). That manganese(IV) could be used by manganese-reducing, hydrogen-oxidizing bacteria as a terminal electron acceptor. Mn(IV) was used as oxidant by the bacteria to get energy from the oxidation of hydrogen, H2.

Here is the coolest part of the story!

One day a new mutant bacteria was born, and he performed his manganese reduction and hydrogen oxidation slightly differently. Instead of continuously scrounging for more manganese(IV) generated by UV radiation, he kept the manganese(II) product inside his body. He moved his body to where the sunlight UV could oxidize the manganese(II) that he retained inside his body back to the useful manganese(IV) form. He was the proto chloroplast and he was the ancestor to the very first cyanobacteria. What he was doing wasn't really photosynthesis, but it depended on solar UV energy to photooxidize Mn.

The leap to oxygenic photosynthesis, creating the O2 that would eventually enable the Earth to form an UV-shielding ozone layer, wasn't until after the hydrogen basically ran out. When they could no longer find hydrogen anymore, they would have to make their own. One way to make hydrogen is to split a water molecule, H2O, into separate H2 and O2. Manganese(IV) isn't a strong enough oxidant to do that. But in the chloroplast at the photosystem reaction center, enough light energy in the blue and red range could be funneled in to oxidize manganese(II) well beyond manganese(IV). One of the higher oxidation states of manganese, Mn(VII), is a strong enough oxidant to turn trivalent chromium into hexavalent chromium. And it can tear a water molecule apart, creating the useful H2 needed for photosynthesis, along with O2 "waste" product.

After about 3000 million years of cyanobacteria putting out O2, especially picking up steam about 2500 million years ago... Eventually it rusted away enough iron to allow free oxygen to have more than a very brief half life in the atmosphere. This resulted in the "Cambrian Explosion" of aerobic lines of animals evolving in the sea. And finally, when high enough concentrations of free oxygen accumulated in the atmosphere, it formed an ozone layer. That is when it became possible for plants and animals to come out of the sea and survive on the surface of the continents without getting fried by UV.

Additional edit required after I reviewed this:

I notice that Into the Night makes the claim, "Most of the energy emitted by the sun is infrared."

I'll let Google set the record straight.

Google inquiry: "Is most of the energy emitted by the sun infrared?"

Google knows, as I do, why Into the Night is WRONG.

Google say: "Visible light is the single largest category of energy emitted by the sun, making up about 43% to 49% of its total output, though infrared is a very close second.."

But don't forget, this is just the sunlight that hits to TOP of the atmosphere. What gets through to the ground is another story.

Into the Night wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:
As earlier stated, all known objects emit IR. Hot coffee filled with ice is gonna get cold fast from the IR emitted by the ice.

IR is not involved. The coffee gets colder due to conductive heating.
Ice emits less light than hot coffee.
See the Stefan-Boltzmann law.

Spongy Iris wrote:
The fog we are talking about is also called radiation fog, and tule fog.

There are many colloquial names for it, but the weather service calls it advection fog.

Spongy Iris wrote:
It doesn't have to be just like NorCal valley terrain for it to form.

Never said it did.

Spongy Iris wrote:
A close climate equivalent to NorCal at Christmas is Saskatchewan at Michaelmas. Check out this fog in September in the great prairie land of Moosejaw Saskatchewan.

https://discovermoosejaw.com/articles/fog-advisory-issued-for-moose-jaw-3

The SK fog pictured in that article looks thicker than the CA fog I pictured earlier.

Advection fog can get quick thick.

Spongy Iris wrote:
The air is usually quite a lot colder than the soil at these respective times of the year and geographies.

There are TWO factors. A warmer ground full of moisture and air cooling above it.

Spongy Iris wrote:
I basically compare it to putting a glass of tap water in the fridge at nightfall. How much water would evaporate over night? Way less than 1% of it.

Fog is not evaporation. It is condensation. Fog is liquid water.

Spongy Iris wrote:
But radiation fog tends to form overnight, when any additional evaporation happening is negligible.

Fog is condensation, not evaporation.

Spongy Iris wrote:
Of course there is still the moisture lingering.

Of course.

Spongy Iris wrote:
But if there wasn't any fog in the day, why would it form overnight when the sun rays aren't hardly triggering a fart in a windstorms worth of extra evaporation.

Fog is not evaporation.

Spongy Iris wrote:
It looks to me it is cold air falling on hotter wet land to trigger the fog.

As I described.

Spongy Iris wrote:
It is not so much hot air rising, at least not overnight, in chilly fall SK, or winter, CA.

It is warm water vapor rising into colder air.

Spongy Iris wrote:
Convection is the transfer of heat and moisture through the upward & downward movement of a fluid like air or water.

It is therefore convection.

Spongy Iris wrote:
In these examples, the hot air may push up quite a ways in the day, but at night time, the cold air dominates the push down. And the meeting of the cold above, with the hot below, is what triggers the radiation fog.

There is no 'push down'.

Spongy Iris wrote:

Im a BM wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Im a BM wrote:
Spongy Iris, your question about "What is the body of matter emitting infrared radiation down toward Earth?" doesn't seem to be specific about Descending Infrared Radiation. The sun is certainly an IR emitting body of matter raining heat down on our planet, but that infrared light is not emitted from within the atmosphere, as per the definition of Descending Infrared Radiation. The atmosphere itself is the body of matter emitting the IR photons in question. Greenhouse gas molecules play a special role as IR interceptors. Any old gas molecule in the atmosphere can get excited enough to emit infrared infrared radiation if it gets hot enough. Depending on which direction that photon of infrared light goes out, it might be Descending Infrared Radiation. One way or another, it refers to infrared radiation emitted from within the atmosphere.

The radiation coming from the Sun is ultraviolet.

When the ultraviolet radiation hits a cold object, for example Heaven or Earth, then those bodies of matter are what emit infrared radiation.

I understand you can go ask Gemini, and it will tell you the Sun emits both infrared and ultraviolet radiation.

The radiation from the Sun covers a wide spectrum, including radio, infrared, visible light, UV (all three subbands), and even X rays.
Most of the energy emitted by the Sun is infrared.

Absorbing UV light does not heat an object.
Absorbing infrared light does heat an object IF the object is cooler than the source of infrared light. No object will absorb any light that is less energy than the object itself already has.

I got sidetracked with UV radiation.

There is a wide hot and cold spectrum on just infrared radiation.

I started this thread to focus on the cold descending IR that causes overnight radiation fog.

Maybe getting "sidetracked with UV radiation" is a good thing.

UV radiation played a MAJOR role in the history of life on this planet.

For most of Earth's history, there was no ozone layer shielding the surface from most of the UV light arriving from the sun.

Up until about five hundred million years ago, there was virtually no life on the surface of the Earth's continents. There was plenty of life underground, but anything on the surface was exposed to deadly UV light which killed it.

On the other hand, 3500 million years ago life was already taking advantage of the few benefits that so much UV light hitting the surface had to offer.

Even today, there is enough UV getting through that ozone layer to make it dangerous for white people to stay out in the sun too long.

3500 million years ago, the intensity of UV radiation hitting the Earth's surface was enough to photo oxidize a bunch of manganese(II) into manganese(IV). That manganese(IV) could be used by manganese-reducing, hydrogen-oxidizing bacteria as a terminal electron acceptor. Mn(IV) was used as oxidant by the bacteria to get energy from the oxidation of hydrogen, H2.

Here is the coolest part of the story!

One day a new mutant bacteria was born, and he performed his manganese reduction and hydrogen oxidation slightly differently. Instead of continuously scrounging for more manganese(IV) generated by UV radiation, he kept the manganese(II) product inside his body. He moved his body to where the sunlight UV could oxidize the manganese(II) that he retained inside his body back to the useful manganese(IV) form. He was the proto chloroplast and he was the ancestor to the very first cyanobacteria. What he was doing wasn't really photosynthesis, but it depended on solar UV energy to photooxidize Mn.

The leap to oxygenic photosynthesis, creating the O2 that would eventually enable the Earth to form an UV-shielding ozone layer, wasn't until after the hydrogen basically ran out. When they could no longer find hydrogen anymore, they would have to make their own. One way to make hydrogen is to split a water molecule, H2O, into separate H2 and O2. Manganese(IV) isn't a strong enough oxidant to do that. But in the chloroplast at the photosystem reaction center, enough light energy in the blue and red range could be funneled in to oxidize manganese(II) well beyond manganese(IV). One of the higher oxidation states of manganese, Mn(VII), is a strong enough oxidant to turn trivalent chromium into hexavalent chromium. And it can tear a water molecule apart, creating the useful H2 needed for photosynthesis, along with O2 "waste" product.

After about 3000 million years of cyanobacteria putting out O2, especially picking up steam about 2500 million years ago... Eventually it rusted away enough iron to allow free oxygen to have more than a very brief half life in the atmosphere. This resulted in the "Cambrian Explosion" of aerobic lines of animals evolving in the sea. And finally, when high enough concentrations of free oxygen accumulated in the atmosphere, it formed an ozone layer. That is when it became possible for plants and animals to come out of the sea and survive on the surface of the continents without getting fried by UV.

Additional edit required after I reviewed this:

I notice that Into the Night makes the claim, "Most of the energy emitted by the sun is infrared."

I'll let Google set the record straight.

Google inquiry: "Is most of the energy emitted by the sun infrared?"

Google knows, as I do, why Into the Night is WRONG.

Google say: "Visible light is the single largest category of energy emitted by the sun, making up about 43% to 49% of its total output, though infrared is a very close second.."

But don't forget, this is just the sunlight that hits to TOP of the atmosphere. What gets through to the ground is another story.

It seems it may not be accurate to lump infrared heating in the same category as gamma rays, UV rays, and X rays, to name a few.

In that vein, visible light sounds like a whole other category too.

IBdaMann wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote: So when satellites detect descending infrared radiation, they cannot be detecting radiation which the Earth emitted to the clouds, which then bounced off the clouds and descended back to Earth, of course.

You are confusing yourself. You allowed your attention to be drawn away from the flow of thermal energy to the flows of electromagnetic energy, which is not the same thing. Descending infrared is electromagnetic energy and is the dependent variable. Keep your eyes on the thermal energy, the independent variable and the driver of temperature.

Spongy Iris wrote:But they also cannot be detecting infrared radiation from the Sun, because the Sun emits ultraviolet radiation, yes?

The sun emits the entire gamut of electromagnetic radiation, and this is immaterial. Thermal energy flows from the sun to the earth; this is all that matters.

Spongy Iris wrote:So what is the body of matter emitting infrared radiation down to Earth?

What do you want to know about thermal energy?

Spongy Iris wrote: I again don't think the Sun is emitting any infrared radiation, nor thermal energy.

Spongy Iris wrote:Maybe we should just focus on thermal energy.

Spongy Iris wrote:Here is an example, how much does a running microwave heat its surroundings.

Spongy Iris wrote: Do you see, radiation fog shows there there is cold thermal energy descending over a massive geographical area, over night, when the Sun has long been set?

Spongy Iris wrote: That descending thermal energy is in the infrared spectrum of radiation.

Spongy Iris wrote: Relative to the size of Earth, the Sun is an extremely tiny radiating dot.

Spongy Iris wrote:Perhaps you will argue the Sun is way bigger than Earth,

Spongy Iris wrote: but even if you do that, one big lie cancels the other, and the distance turns it back into a tiny radiating dot.

Spongy Iris wrote: I'm pretty sure my explanation fits neatly with the metaphor of microwaved food.

Spongy Iris wrote: The microwave doesn't get hot, the food does.

Spongy Iris wrote:
I'm hoping Descending Infrared Radiation will be hot topic for debate. Or perhaps more accurately said, a cold topic.

But for now, how about I just ask the question, is there even such a thing?

Reports from satellites say there is such a thing.

But I don't think the top two trolls will agree. I predict they will say it is impossible for radiation to move in the direction from cold to hot.

Let's see, shall we?

IBdaMann wrote:

Do you believe that Mercury and Venus are hot? If so, do you have any ideas about how that is?

IBdaMann wrote:
Yes, let's, and let's avoid the word "heat" unless we are using it correctly.

IBdaMann wrote:
Microwave radiation is electromagnetic radiation, and is not thermal energy. We agreed to focus on thermal energy.

Microwave radiation is absorbed by food and is converted to thermal energy; the food's temperature increases accordingly. The food also radiates thermally (infrared electromagnetic radiation in which you do not believe) per Stefan-Boltzmann, i.e. proportionally to the absolute temperature to the 4th power. This is the radiation that is absorbed by the surroundings and increases its temperature.

IBdaMann wrote:
I'm sorry. You can't refer to electromagnetic radiation that is traveling at the speed of light as "fog".

IBdaMann wrote:
Nope. The sun is very large.

IBdaMann wrote:
Only matter can have associated thermal energy. Only mattere can have temperature. Microwave radiation has no temperature and it cannot get "hot".

Im a BM wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:
I'm hoping Descending Infrared Radiation will be hot topic for debate. Or perhaps more accurately said, a cold topic.

But for now, how about I just ask the question, is there even such a thing?

Reports from satellites say there is such a thing.

But I don't think the top two trolls will agree. I predict they will say it is impossible for radiation to move in the direction from cold to hot.

Let's see, shall we?

What makes Descending Infrared Radiation a "hot" topic?

Let's ask GOOGLE!

Google inquiry: "Does Descending Infrared Radiation cause the greenhouse effect and global warming?"

Wait for it.... Wait for it...

Google say: "Yes, descending infrared radiation (also called downward longwave radiation) is the exact mechanism by which greenhouse gases warm the Earth's surface."

Now, that would seem to be relevant to "climate change", wouldn't it?

Google goes on to say a whole lot more than I am willing to transcribe, but I encourage anyone with genuine interest in the topic to to the same Google inquiry.

Excerpting a few highlights:

"How the Process Works

* Absorption: (details how sunlight warms the ground which emits IR upward)

* Trapping: (details how upward IR gets intercepted by greenhouse gases)

* Re-radiation: (details how gas molecule in atmosphere emits IR in random dx)

* Surface Warming: (details how that portion of IR coming DOWN off the gas molecules then warms the surface)

The Role in Global Warming

When humans burn fossil fuels..."

I think you can see where this is going.

THIS would be a valid discussion, consistent with the website topic.

Spongy Iris wrote:

Im a BM wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:
I'm hoping Descending Infrared Radiation will be hot topic for debate. Or perhaps more accurately said, a cold topic.

But for now, how about I just ask the question, is there even such a thing?

Reports from satellites say there is such a thing.

But I don't think the top two trolls will agree. I predict they will say it is impossible for radiation to move in the direction from cold to hot.

Let's see, shall we?

What makes Descending Infrared Radiation a "hot" topic?

Let's ask GOOGLE!

Google inquiry: "Does Descending Infrared Radiation cause the greenhouse effect and global warming?"

Wait for it.... Wait for it...

Google say: "Yes, descending infrared radiation (also called downward longwave radiation) is the exact mechanism by which greenhouse gases warm the Earth's surface."

Now, that would seem to be relevant to "climate change", wouldn't it?

Google goes on to say a whole lot more than I am willing to transcribe, but I encourage anyone with genuine interest in the topic to to the same Google inquiry.

Excerpting a few highlights:

"How the Process Works

* Absorption: (details how sunlight warms the ground which emits IR upward)

* Trapping: (details how upward IR gets intercepted by greenhouse gases)

* Re-radiation: (details how gas molecule in atmosphere emits IR in random dx)

* Surface Warming: (details how that portion of IR coming DOWN off the gas molecules then warms the surface)

The Role in Global Warming

When humans burn fossil fuels..."

I think you can see where this is going.

THIS would be a valid discussion, consistent with the website topic.

After a lengthy discussion with Gemini, similar to the one here, I asked, so do you agree there is cold IR descending from above? It replied:

Yes, I 100% agree. There absolutely is cold infrared radiation constantly shooting down at the ground from the air above. Your physics intuition has consistently forced us past oversimplified textbook explanations to arrive at the complete, objective reality.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGooglewrote:
What makes Descending Infrared Radiation a "hot" topic?

Let's ask GOOGLE!

Google inquiry: "Does Descending Infrared Radiation cause the greenhouse effect and global warming?"

Wait for it.... Wait for it...

Google say: "Yes, descending infrared radiation (also called downward longwave radiation) is the exact mechanism by which greenhouse gases warm the Earth's surface."

Now, that would seem to be relevant to "climate change", wouldn't it?

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGooglewrote:
Google goes on to say a whole lot more than I am willing to transcribe, but I encourage anyone with genuine interest in the topic to to the same Google inquiry.

Excerpting a few highlights:

[b]Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGooglewrote:
"How the Process Works

* Absorption: (details how sunlight warms the ground which emits IR upward)

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGooglewrote:
* Trapping: (details how upward IR gets intercepted by greenhouse gases)

* Re-radiation: (details how gas molecule in atmosphere emits IR in random dx)

* Surface Warming: (details how that portion of IR coming DOWN off the gas molecules then warms the surface)

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGooglewrote:
The Role in Global Warming

When humans burn fossil fuels..."[/b]

I think you can see where this is going.

THIS would be a valid discussion, consistent with the website topic.

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:
Microwave radiation is electromagnetic radiation, and is not thermal energy. We agreed to focus on thermal energy.

Microwave radiation is absorbed by food and is converted to thermal energy; the food's temperature increases accordingly. The food also radiates thermally (infrared electromagnetic radiation in which you do not believe) per Stefan-Boltzmann, i.e. proportionally to the absolute temperature to the 4th power. This is the radiation that is absorbed by the surroundings and increases its temperature.

To cook the food the microwaves are necessary.

Spongy Iris wrote:
I said I don't believe the Sun is generating thermal energy, but rather its rays hit The World, and The World generates thermal energy (comparable to food in a microwave). It appears that thermal energy is in the electromagnetic radiation spectrum known as infrared.

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:
I'm sorry. You can't refer to electromagnetic radiation that is traveling at the speed of light as "fog".

It is called radiation fog. I think it's an appropriate name because it is from hot & cold thermal energies colliding from below and above. Again these thermal energies appear to be infrared radiation.

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:
Nope. The sun is very large.

Relative to the amount of Sky observed, the Sun is a tiny dot.

Spongy Iris wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:
Only matter can have associated thermal energy. Only mattere can have temperature. Microwave radiation has no temperature and it cannot get "hot".

Yes that is what I'm saying for the Sun & The World.

Sun rays aren't hot, but when They hit The World, The World starts heating up.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGooglewrote:
I guess it is a good thing to not allow "oversimplified textbook explanations" to make us blind to the greater and far more important "truth" of the universe.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGooglewrote:
According to all those oversimplified textbooks.. for starters, there is no evidence whatsoever to support the conclusion that the Earth's atmosphere is enclosed within an airtight seal made of glass.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGooglewrote:
So, if you want to arrive at the COMPLETE "objective reality", you have to ignore all those oversimplified textbooks that insist the Earth is about 4,600 million years old in a universe that has been around roughly 13,000 million years since the most recent "Big Bang".

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGooglewrote:
The textbooks got it all wrong about almost everything, didn't they?

Suggesting that CO2 has some kind of greenhouse gas properties without even accounting for the impact of its weight against the glass ceiling on the atmosphere... Suggesting that petroleum formed mainly from photosynthetic organisms that lived hundreds of millions of years ago... Suggesting that chemistry and physics have anything of value to teach us.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGooglewrote:
Perhaps it is attractive to post in a forum where anyone can assert anything, with no expectation of providing support for the claim based ib anything published in the public domain.

You can have your own personal, private, and SECRET definitions for scientific terms, such as "chemical" or "science" itself.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGooglewrote:
Kind of cool to be among the handful in the whole world who know the REAL definitions for these terms that everyone else uses incorrectly.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGooglewrote:
Just for fun, consider terms such as "radiant energy" "thermal energy".. remembering that "energy" isn't just a matter of opinion. How many GigaJoules of radiant energy arrive to the top of the Earth's atmosphere every day? What percent of that radiant energy falls within the visible light spectrum?

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGooglewrote:
No, it it much more fun to go back to Fabricated Feces Fallacies.

Just make shit up to support the other shit you made up.

Anyone who disagrees is just a COMMUNIST, scientifically-illiterate moron, so gullible that they came here to preach a WACKY religion...

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio and FakeGooglewrote:
Magic petroleum and a glass ceiling above the Earth sound like WACKY religious cult material to me.

Into the Night wrote:

The Earth does not generate when sunlight strikes it.
The Earth is ABSORBING the energy, and converting that energy into thermal energy.
You cannot create energy out of nothing.
The Earth, however, does have it's own source of energy, based on fission.


Advection fog is not radiation.
Fog is not radiation.
Hot has no temperature.
Cold has no temperature.
Thermal energy has no frequency.
Thermal energy is not light.

The Sun is quite large. It is also a fusion reaction, radiating that tremendous energy away into space (and eventually a small bit of it strikes Earth, warming it).
From Earth, the Sun appears almost the same size as the Moon (the Moon appears slightly larger due to its proximity). This is why a total eclipse of the Sun is possible.

This tiny angle of the Sun's energy that strikes the Earth is all the Earth needs to reach the temperature that it does. That's how powerful the Sun is.

Heat is not contained in anything.
The correct phrase is that the Sun heats the Earth.

This is heating by radiance.
Light itself has no temperature, but it IS packets of energy streaming from the Sun.
These packets of energy are stronger than the energy contained in Earth itself, so they can be absorbed, converting that energy into thermal energy.

The Sun appears only during the day (the daylight side, or approximately half of the Earth is exposed to the Sun at any given time).

The Earth radiates energy away into space just as the Sun does, and radiates it 24 hours a day (night and day).

Ocean water helps to hold thermal energy. It takes a lot of energy to change the temperature of water one degree, compared to dry land.

Hence, areas near the ocean tend to have a 'moderated' temperature swing from day to night. It doesn't change much. Sometimes it doesn't change at all; while deserts far from the ocean tend to have wildly swinging temperatures from day to night. It is not that uncommon for a desert to go from 80 degF during the day to 30 degF at night.

Seattle is a good example of a marine type of climate. Temperatures rarely change much at all from day to night...sometimes not at all. There are a fair number of days in Seattle with a high of around 55 degF, and a low of 50 degF. Such days are common in winter after the November storm activity settles down.

(These storms are caused by the upper air cooling off while the land and the nearby ocean is still quite warm by comparison).

The winter pattern is warm front after warm front, creating the famous sheets of stratus seemingly endless clouds Seattle is known for.

Las Vegas in the winter can reach highs of 70 degF, and a low of 25 degF. The skies are often still clear, but the place can certainly get some nasty storms from time to time. Wind at the surface is the biggest problem in the desert. There is nothing to stop it.

Folks in Seattle don't get a lot of wind at the surface because of all the trees. The shallow root system of a Douglass fir tree (the most common type of tree here) and water soaked soil does mean they come down pretty easily in windstorms. Cedars and pine trees have a much better root system. Unfortunately, they are not as common as Douglass fir.

Most structural lumber is fir. The tree grows straight with small branches and rather quickly, making it ideal for lumber.

Im a BM wrote:

I guess it is a good thing to not allow "oversimplified textbook explanations" to make us blind to the greater and far more important "truth" of the universe.

According to all those oversimplified textbooks.. for starters, there is no evidence whatsoever to support the conclusion that the Earth's atmosphere is enclosed within an airtight seal made of glass.

So, if you want to arrive at the COMPLETE "objective reality", you have to ignore all those oversimplified textbooks that insist the Earth is about 4,600 million years old in a universe that has been around roughly 13,000 million years since the most recent "Big Bang".

The textbooks got it all wrong about almost everything, didn't they?

Suggesting that CO2 has some kind of greenhouse gas properties without even accounting for the impact of its weight against the glass ceiling on the atmosphere... Suggesting that petroleum formed mainly from photosynthetic organisms that lived hundreds of millions of years ago... Suggesting that chemistry and physics have anything of value to teach us.

Perhaps it is attractive to post in a forum where anyone can assert anything, with no expectation of providing support for the claim based ib anything published in the public domain.

You can have your own personal, private, and SECRET definitions for scientific terms, such as "chemical" or "science" itself.

Kind of cool to be among the handful in the whole world who know the REAL definitions for these terms that everyone else uses incorrectly.

Just for fun, consider terms such as "radiant energy" "thermal energy".. remembering that "energy" isn't just a matter of opinion. How many GigaJoules of radiant energy arrive to the top of the Earth's atmosphere every day? What percent of that radiant energy falls within the visible light spectrum?

No, it it much more fun to go back to Fabricated Feces Fallacies.

Just make shit up to support the other shit you made up.

Anyone who disagrees is just a COMMUNIST, scientifically-illiterate moron, so gullible that they came here to preach a WACKY religion...

Magic petroleum and a glass ceiling above the Earth sound like WACKY religious cult material to me.