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Death by Government


Death by Government20-10-2015 04:24
Into the Night
★★★★★
(8642)
This thread is set aside to discuss the effects of policies, rules, regulations, and laws that various governments impose in the name of Global Warming, and the effect on people or individuals as a result.

To try to limit the flame wars over Democrats, Republicans, Communists, or Capitalists, let's try not to assign a particular government policy, rule, regulation, or law to any political ideology. In other words, let's talk about the thing imposed on the people itself, rather than the political party that imposed it.

(I know...GLWT, but I can try)
20-10-2015 04:36
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night:

1. What is GLWT?

2. In every oppression there lies an opportunity. Even Hitler gave us the Autobahn.

3. Why not start off by giving us an example.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
20-10-2015 04:47
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(4265)
Into the Night wrote: In other words, let's talk about the thing imposed on the people itself, rather than the political party that imposed it.

You're killing me! Marxists are behind it all, regardless of the specifics!

Oh,...all right.

trafn, you bloody "thing-imposer."

trafn wrote: Even Hitler gave us the Autobahn.

Hitler gave us the autobahn? Who knew? The holocaust was apparently worth it after all!


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
20-10-2015 04:57
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - I can't remember which one, but near the end of 45' one of the top U.S. generals was ask how one could possibly justify all that had happened in WWII and he replied, "It gave us lots of good things, you know, like the ball point pen."

As for the holocaust, that's a nightmare even I loath to touch.

By the way, why are you calling me the "thing-imposer." This whole thread is Into the Night's idea.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
20-10-2015 05:31
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(4265)
trafn wrote:By the way, why are you calling me the "thing-imposer."

Re-read Into the Night's stipulations. He said I can't, say, call you a "Marxist" and that I have to talk about the "thing imposed."

...so I called you a "thing-imposer." Re-read my post after you read the OP; it'll make sense. I'm circumventing calling you a "Marxist".


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
20-10-2015 05:36
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - that's quite all right. I just called you a Marxist in another thread.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
20-10-2015 06:18
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(4265)
trafn wrote:
@IBdaMann - that's quite all right. I just called you a Marxist in another thread.

My offer remains open. I will support the Marxist cause if, well, you know, ...if I get to be the guy who redistributes the wealth.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
20-10-2015 17:21
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - okay, so now that we're both Marxist, which government shall we crucify so as to stay on topic in Into the Night's thread here?


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
20-10-2015 18:45
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(4265)
trafn wrote:
@IBdaMann - okay, so now that we're both Marxist, which government shall we crucify so as to stay on topic in Into the Night's thread here?

We can't really crucify any government so much as we need to talk about the thing imposed.

So what imposed thing shall we discuss? Your carbon-neutral policy is a great candidate for this thread. Carbon tithing is another. We could probably just discuss all the wealth redistributing that I'm going to get to do when we Marxists take over.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
20-10-2015 18:59
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - I guess your claiming that CN based private companies like these:

Inventysinc
Carbon Engineering

are going to be bad for global economics?

Is it just the jobs they'll create that are bad, or is just perhaps their private sector capitalism which is an evil truism in your Marxist perspective?


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!

Edited on 20-10-2015 19:01
20-10-2015 20:26
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(4265)
trafn wrote:
@IBdaMann - I guess your claiming that CN based private companies like these:

Inventysinc
Carbon Engineering

are going to be bad for global economics?

Is it just the jobs they'll create that are bad, or is just perhaps their private sector capitalism which is an evil truism in your Marxist perspective?

Any business that is created to support a non-existent demand will be bad overall.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
20-10-2015 21:06
Into the Night
★★★★★
(8642)
Since the conversation seems to be wandering toward government funded 'private' companies, a few questions should probably be asked:

What about the cost of funding such a company? The money coming from the government is not free. If they tax for it, there will be revolt. If they borrow it, there will eventually be a debt crash with it's associated depression. If they print it, there will be an inflation crash with it's associated loss of confidence in the currency worldwide.

Either way, what happens to the wealth of those caught on the wrong wide of that fence? What about the misery they will suffer because of any three of these actions?

Secondly, since business too must pay the cost like everyone else, what happens to the opportunities to create businesses that might actually solve something profitably?
20-10-2015 21:07
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMarxistMann - yes indeedy, and shame on those Wright Brothers!


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
20-10-2015 21:12
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night - your whole statement is predicated on such businesses being presumptive failures. I would suggest that the opposite will hold true.

Many people held your point of view at the start of the WPA. Granted, hardly a perfect program (especially if you were that guy buried alive in the Hoover Dam), but we have benefited from it for over half a century now.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
20-10-2015 22:07
Into the Night
★★★★★
(8642)
trafn wrote:
@Into the Night - your whole statement is predicated on such businesses being presumptive failures. I would suggest that the opposite will hold true.

Many people held your point of view at the start of the WPA. Granted, hardly a perfect program (especially if you were that guy buried alive in the Hoover Dam), but we have benefited from it for over half a century now.


The Hoover Dam project was a project of infrastructure. Funding businesses that have no market to attempt to create a market is not. It is corruption. The businesses ARE presumptive failures, otherwise they wouldn't need government funding to get started. Private funding would easily fill that role.
20-10-2015 22:12
Into the Night
★★★★★
(8642)
trafn wrote:
@IBdaMarxistMann - yes indeedy, and shame on those Wright Brothers!


The Wright Brothers (and any other inventor like this) did so to satisfy an existing demand. They knew the demand was there. That's why they were so secretive about their notes.

Remember people had been building and flying heavier than air aircraft quite a ways before the Wright Brothers. The Wright Brothers were the first successful powered flight, but certainly not the first attempt at it!
20-10-2015 22:21
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(4265)
trafn wrote:
@IBdaMarxistMann - yes indeedy, and shame on those Wright Brothers!

The demand for transportation was very real.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
21-10-2015 00:05
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night - wow, I guess you're right. There is absolutely no known market for:

1. Improved solar power.

2. Improved wind power.

3. Improved electric cars.

4. Improved geothermal power.

5. Tidal power.

6. Fusion.

And the list goes on and on. You are truly a captain of industry.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
21-10-2015 02:26
Into the Night
★★★★★
(8642)
trafn wrote:
@Into the Night - wow, I guess you're right. There is absolutely no known market for:

1. Improved solar power.

2. Improved wind power.

3. Improved electric cars.

4. Improved geothermal power.

5. Tidal power.

6. Fusion.

And the list goes on and on. You are truly a captain of industry.


Solar power is a government made market. It can only exist in the presence of government subsidies.
Wind power is a government made market. It can only exist in the presence of government subsidies (except for certain special cases of extreme isolation).
Electric cars are private demand, and private companies like Toyota are answering that demand without the use of government subsidies or force.
Power plants using geothermal or tidal power in this country are government sponsored.
Fusion is not a technology. There are no companies producing it. Fusion is a possible future technology.
21-10-2015 06:11
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night - hmmmm, government subsidies. You mean like tax breaks!

Gee whiz, then what major industry doesn't get government subsidies?

Oh, I know - the porn industry!

I guess that means that the oldest profession is also the only profession that has a true and worthwhile market.

Care to suggest any investment opportunities you've enjoyed?




The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!

Edited on 21-10-2015 06:57
21-10-2015 21:44
Into the Night
★★★★★
(8642)
trafn wrote:
@Into the Night - hmmmm, government subsidies. You mean like tax breaks!

No. Outright grants. Everyone gets tax breaks.
trafn wrote:
Gee whiz, then what major industry doesn't get government subsidies?

Oh, I know - the porn industry!

Using your definition (tax breaks) they get 'subsidies' too.
trafn wrote:
I guess that means that the oldest profession is also the only profession that has a true and worthwhile market.

According to your definition, they get 'subsidies' too, in the form of tax breaks.
trafn wrote:
Care to suggest any investment opportunities you've enjoyed?



No. I give no investment advice. It would be as useful as any other economists' advice.
21-10-2015 23:54
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night - how fascinating. You accuse, and I admit, that I am Mr. Doom-and-Gloom when it comes to M2C2.

Yet here you and IBdasMarxistischeMenschlicheMinen are being histrionic, catastrophic, dooms day prophets about the economic impact of M2C2 industries. You absolutely refuse to see any possible good outcomes from what they do and believe that they (not M2C2) will destroy this planet.

All I can say to that is this. Doom-and-Gloom are mine. Get off my turf!




The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
22-10-2015 02:44
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(4265)
trafn wrote:Yet here you and IBdasMarxistischeMenschlicheMinen are being histrionic, catastrophic, dooms day prophets about the economic impact of M2C2 industries. You absolutely refuse to see any possible good outcomes from what they do and believe that they (not M2C2) will destroy this planet.


I simply point out what the Marxists would like to do. I have no intention of allowing it to happen.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
22-10-2015 02:55
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@climate scientist, Ceist and Tototo only - this thread was started to discuss things imposed on people by government, and some people actually consider all of these impositions:

1. Improved solar power.

2. Improved wind power.

3. Improved electric cars.

4. Improved geothermal power.

5. Tidal power.

6. Fusion energy.

Given one person's imposition is another person's benefit, I thought it'd be interesting if you and I discussed the positive aspects of these so called impositions.

What are your thoughts?


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!

Edited on 22-10-2015 03:11
22-10-2015 03:07
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(4265)
@ Everyone Only
This thread was created to discuss impositions.

Why would government impositions on the people that benefit the government through bloat and increased invasive power to impose, be seen as a benefit to the people?


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
22-10-2015 03:08
Into the Night
★★★★★
(8642)
trafn wrote:
@Into the Night - how fascinating. You accuse, and I admit, that I am Mr. Doom-and-Gloom when it comes to M2C2.

Yet here you and IBdasMarxistischeMenschlicheMinen are being histrionic, catastrophic, dooms day prophets about the economic impact of M2C2 industries. You absolutely refuse to see any possible good outcomes from what they do and believe that they (not M2C2) will destroy this planet.

All I can say to that is this. Doom-and-Gloom are mine. Get off my turf!



They won't destroy the planet, no. They will life in nations that implement these rules harder to live in, though. These rules destroy industry and innovation, they don't create them. Businesses placed under these rules often either never open, go out of business, or leave. If an existing business does stay, it will do what it can to limit it's exposure to damage caused by these rules.




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