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Cold can of soda?


Cold can of soda?07-06-2019 07:02
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1392)
Always had a sweet tooth, probably why I have a $55,000 mouth! I enjoy my soda, mainly the evil MT. Dew, which has made plenty of dentists millionaires. Anyway, like everyone else, I prefer it to stay cold as possible long as I'm drinking it.

For some reason I've always felt like a can kept the soda cold longer than a plastic bottle. Maybe it has something to do with seeing and feeling all the cold condensation dripping off of it.

Well then I got to thinking. (Fortunately no one got hurt!
) We've had conversations here about insulation. If my learning serves correctly it is all about the quality of the coupling. A poor coupling is a better insulator because it reduces heat.

So I've been wrong all these years? The aluminum has to be a better coupling than plastic, right?....meaning heat will flow more into the can versus the plastic.

Given 2 containers of equal volume, same color container, which one will warm up faster, assuming room temperature (70f) and in no sun. Any different in the sun, assuming same labeling and volume?......monkey wrench.....will air flow effect the rate of warming due to evaporational cooling?

Just something to keepit
interesting.


I think people screw me over because they don't want to see someone willing to put out the effort that they won't.~James~
Edited on 07-06-2019 07:11
07-06-2019 15:58
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(4611)
GasGuzzler wrote:
Always had a sweet tooth, probably why I have a $55,000 mouth! I enjoy my soda, mainly the evil MT. Dew, which has made plenty of dentists millionaires. Anyway, like everyone else, I prefer it to stay cold as possible long as I'm drinking it.

For some reason I've always felt like a can kept the soda cold longer than a plastic bottle. Maybe it has something to do with seeing and feeling all the cold condensation dripping off of it.

Well then I got to thinking. (Fortunately no one got hurt!
) We've had conversations here about insulation. If my learning serves correctly it is all about the quality of the coupling. A poor coupling is a better insulator because it reduces heat.

So I've been wrong all these years? The aluminum has to be a better coupling than plastic, right?....meaning heat will flow more into the can versus the plastic.

Given 2 containers of equal volume, same color container, which one will warm up faster, assuming room temperature (70f) and in no sun. Any different in the sun, assuming same labeling and volume?......monkey wrench.....will air flow effect the rate of warming due to evaporational cooling?

Just something to keepit
interesting.


With no sun, just a dark room with your 12 oz. aluminum can of Mountain Dew sitting about eight feet away from your 12 oz. identically shaped bottle of Mountain Dew on a counter in a 70degF room ... the can warms up more quickly for two reasons:

The two containers acquire thermal energy from the surrounding air through conduction. The coefficient of heat (energy flow) in the plastic is very small whereas that of the aluminum is many times greater.

The surrounding air also raidates thermally and the aluminum black body has a much higher emissivity than polyethylene terephthalate.

In short, thermal energy is crashing the party in the aluminum can while the bouncers at the plastic bottle are doing a better job at keeping it out.

While I was writing this, it occurred to me to see if someone had already posted a video of this on YouTube ... but unfortunately I couldn't find any in the brief scan that I made, but I did find this.

https://sciencing.com/drink-metal-can-plastic-bottle-5518851.html


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
07-06-2019 16:50
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1392)
IBdaMann wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
Always had a sweet tooth, probably why I have a $55,000 mouth! I enjoy my soda, mainly the evil MT. Dew, which has made plenty of dentists millionaires. Anyway, like everyone else, I prefer it to stay cold as possible long as I'm drinking it.

For some reason I've always felt like a can kept the soda cold longer than a plastic bottle. Maybe it has something to do with seeing and feeling all the cold condensation dripping off of it.

Well then I got to thinking. (Fortunately no one got hurt!
) We've had conversations here about insulation. If my learning serves correctly it is all about the quality of the coupling. A poor coupling is a better insulator because it reduces heat.

So I've been wrong all these years? The aluminum has to be a better coupling than plastic, right?....meaning heat will flow more into the can versus the plastic.

Given 2 containers of equal volume, same color container, which one will warm up faster, assuming room temperature (70f) and in no sun. Any different in the sun, assuming same labeling and volume?......monkey wrench.....will air flow effect the rate of warming due to evaporational cooling?

Just something to keepit
interesting.


With no sun, just a dark room with your 12 oz. aluminum can of Mountain Dew sitting about eight feet away from your 12 oz. identically shaped bottle of Mountain Dew on a counter in a 70degF room ... the can warms up more quickly for two reasons:

The two containers acquire thermal energy from the surrounding air through conduction. The coefficient of heat (energy flow) in the plastic is very small whereas that of the aluminum is many times greater.

The surrounding air also raidates thermally and the aluminum black body has a much higher emissivity than polyethylene terephthalate.

In short, thermal energy is crashing the party in the aluminum can while the bouncers at the plastic bottle are doing a better job at keeping it out.

While I was writing this, it occurred to me to see if someone had already posted a video of this on YouTube ... but unfortunately I couldn't find any in the brief scan that I made, but I did find this.

https://sciencing.com/drink-metal-can-plastic-bottle-5518851.html


...and with airflow? The metal can, with all that condensation, gets no credit for evaporational cooling?


I think people screw me over because they don't want to see someone willing to put out the effort that they won't.~James~
07-06-2019 17:16
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(4611)
GasGuzzler wrote:
...and with airflow? The metal can, with all that condensation, gets no credit for evaporational cooling?

I regret that all the condensation only serves to increase the rate at which the can warms. Water transfers thermal energy like nobody's business ... that's why you put it in your radiator.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist

Edited on 07-06-2019 17:17
07-06-2019 18:21
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1173)
I think it only seems like the plastic bottle gets warm quicker, because it's a 20 Oz bottle, takes a little longer to consume.

Now, I prefer bottled beer, over canned. Seldom drink more than two, mostly just one. Just seems a little different.
07-06-2019 18:51
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1392)
HarveyH55 wrote:
I think it only seems like the plastic bottle gets warm quicker, because it's a 20 Oz bottle, takes a little longer to consume.

Now, I prefer bottled beer, over canned. Seldom drink more than two, mostly just one. Just seems a little different.


When we were kids we could get a 16 oz glass bottle of Mt Dew for 40 cents and a dime return on the bottle. So bad for the teeth, but yeah those seemed to stay cold for an hour.

I prefer my drinks in the can, beer too. According to IBdaMann I'll just have to pick up the pace to keep them cold. Could be a wild weekend!!



I think people screw me over because they don't want to see someone willing to put out the effort that they won't.~James~
07-06-2019 18:57
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9226)
HarveyH55 wrote:
I think it only seems like the plastic bottle gets warm quicker, because it's a 20 Oz bottle, takes a little longer to consume.

Now, I prefer bottled beer, over canned. Seldom drink more than two, mostly just one. Just seems a little different.


Quite right. This is a great example of the problems of phenomenology in observations.

The 20 oz bottle seems to get warm quicker, simply because it takes longer to drink it.

A quantifiable device like a thermometer placed in each container though, and measured over the same time with the same conditions, will show the can warms faster. There is better coupling because of the aluminum can (which is why the same amount of Mt Dow in both containers does what it does).

Condensation on the outside of the can (or the bottle) will help couple the air to the bottle, but Mt Dew is mostly water anyway.


The Parrot Killer
07-06-2019 20:23
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1392)
Into the Night wrote:The 20 oz bottle seems to get warm quicker, simply because it takes longer to drink it.

Put beer in the 20oz bottle and we'll have us a different discussion.


Into the Night wrote:A quantifiable device like a thermometer placed in each container though, and measured over the same time with the same conditions, will show the can warms faster. There is better coupling because of the aluminum can (which is why the same amount of Mt Dow in both containers does what it does).

So how does the same scenario play out in a vacuum? How does the heat flow? Is there conduction with no coupling?......two 1 cubic ft blocks of steel in a vacuum. Block A is 50 degrees and block b is 100 degrees. They are sitting 2 inches apart. They have been heated to said temp and set to float in dark outer space. Can block B warm block A?


I think people screw me over because they don't want to see someone willing to put out the effort that they won't.~James~
07-06-2019 21:18
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(4611)
HarveyH55 wrote:
I think it only seems like the plastic bottle gets warm quicker, because it's a 20 Oz bottle, takes a little longer to consume.

Now, I prefer bottled beer, over canned. Seldom drink more than two, mostly just one. Just seems a little different.

Please remember that I stipulated a bottle that is identically shaped. You know that's never the case. Plastic bottles typically have more surface area due to their shape and that accelerates the warming.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
07-06-2019 22:34
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9226)
GasGuzzler wrote:
Into the Night wrote:The 20 oz bottle seems to get warm quicker, simply because it takes longer to drink it.

Put beer in the 20oz bottle and we'll have us a different discussion.


Into the Night wrote:A quantifiable device like a thermometer placed in each container though, and measured over the same time with the same conditions, will show the can warms faster. There is better coupling because of the aluminum can (which is why the same amount of Mt Dow in both containers does what it does).

So how does the same scenario play out in a vacuum?

Heating still occurs, but only by radiance (ignoring the small amount of mass still in a typical vacuum).
GasGuzzler wrote:
How does the heat flow?
By radiance only. The bottle has a lower emissivity than the can, so the can will cool faster than the bottle (assuming typical Mt Dew labels).
GasGuzzler wrote:
Is there conduction with no coupling?.
There is coupling. There is coupling by radiant heating.
GasGuzzler wrote:
....two 1 cubic ft blocks of steel in a vacuum. Block A is 50 degrees and block b is 100 degrees. They are sitting 2 inches apart. They have been heated to said temp and set to float in dark outer space. Can block B warm block A?

Yes, by radiant heating. However, BOTH blocks will radiate, so the two combined will eventually reach the temperature of outer space (yes, it has a temperature, because no vacuum is perfect, not even in outer space).

Both blocks will also slowly vaporize somewhat. They will each have an 'atmosphere'. It's very thin, but it's there. The vapor just hangs around the blocks due to gravity.


The Parrot Killer
08-06-2019 00:25
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(4611)
GasGuzzler wrote: So how does the same scenario play out in a vacuum?


Let's create two different scenarios:

Scenario 1) Out in Death Valley, in the summer, on a particularly bright, sunny and hot day, you suspend inside a big 2 meter x 2 meter x 2 meter opaque metal vacuum box both a can of Mountain Dew and a equally shaped plastic bottle of Mountain Dew, both at 40 deg F (277.6 Kelvins) hanging two feet apart from each other from thin strings of insignificance roughly in the center of the box.

Scenario 2) While riding on your space cruiser outside the Milky Way, you accidentally jettison a can of Mountain Dew and an equally shaped plastic bottle of Mountain Dew, both at 40 degrees F (277.6 Kelvins) into deep space. They float away about two feet apart.

In neither scenario is there any conduction. All change in temperature occurs via thermal radiation. Per Kirchoff's law, the can's higher emissivity means that the can not only radiates more than the bottle under otherwise equivalent conditions but that the can also absorbs more thermal radiation than the bottle under otherwise equivalent conditions.

In scenario 1, the metal box becomes hot and radiates thermally, both inside and out. Inside the box, both the can and the bottle receive the same amount of incident thermal radiation but the can absorbs more and thus rises in temperature faster than the bottle.

Interesting Note: The moment the can's temperature rises above the bottle's, the can serves to warm the bottle as well. Yes, the bottle is also radiating but because the bottle is of a lower temperature, Planck's law tells us that the photons it emits are not of sufficient energy to be absorbed by the can which is of a higher temperature, i.e. per the 2nd law of thermodynamics, a cooler body cannot warm a warmer body.

In scenario 2, there is no sun or any significant heat source so both the can and the bottle are going to freeze. Stefan-Boltzmann tells us that thermal energy pours out of the can at a greater rate than of the bottle owing to the can's higher emissivity.

Radiance(can) = (277.6)^4 * Boltzmann * (can's higher emissivity)
Radiance(bottle) = (277.6)^4 * Boltzmann * (bottles lower emissivity)

Interesting Note: The moment the can's temperature drops below the bottle's temperature, the bottle serves to warm the can. Yes, the can is also radiating but because the can is of a lower temperature, Planck's law tells us that the photons it emits are not of sufficient energy to be absorbed by the bottle which is of a higher temperature, i.e. per the 2nd law of thermodynamics, a cooler body cannot warm a warmer body.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist




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