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Citizen's Climate Lobby Australia (CCLA)


Citizen's Climate Lobby Australia (CCLA)02-08-2020 00:12
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)


Duncan was kind enough to share his experience with CCLA. Upon duncan's stated standown from participating, I decided to engage with CCLA to see if they would reveal their true colors. Below is my series of correspondence with them:

Sat, Jul 25 at 11:48 PM, IBDaMann wrote to: info@ccl.org.au

To whom it may concern at the Citizens' Climate Lobby Australia,
My colleagues and I were considering participating in your discussion to contribute what we can in the way of science because we are passionate about protecting the environment. Several of us had some concerns, though, and I was tasked with compiling those questions and forwarding them to you to be addressed.

1. We are physicists and economists and we understand why there is no such thing as Greenhouse Effect ... or Global Warming. Does this make us undesireable? We would be happy to present a brief 15-minute lecture on the physics in question so you can ensure your positions are based on sound science. We ask because what drew us to your organization was your policy, as stated on your website: "Our approach is thoughtful and thorough. We consult experts and utilise data. We are open to new information; in fact we solicit opposing opinions. We refine our solutions to make them better. We follow up when we are asked. We keep on."

2. Your website indicates that you are focused on a "Carbon Fee and Dividend policy." This is a bad idea. We would similarly be elated to present you an overview on the economics fundamentals that explain why this won't work, which actually involve physics fundamentals, believe it or not. This way you can ensure that your positions are based on sound economics as well.

3. Lastly, how can we help? If it's ideas you seek then we have various novel ideas for solving the world energy shortages by utilizing geologically renewable hydrocarbons. Not only are these cheap and plentiful but they produce plant food that makes the world GREEN. We have a lot of ideas and we are eager to participate.

Where do we begin?

Mon, Jul 27 at 3:48 AM, Catharine <info@ccl.org.au> responded to IBDaMann, Cc'ed hunttomj@gmail.com

Thanks for your inquiry.

I am going to forward to Tom who does a lot of media and event organising for CCL. Could you respond from CCL, Tom?

Thanks to you both, Catharine

Mon, Jul 27 at 10:14 AM IBDaMann responded to Catharine, Cc'ed hunttomj@gmail.com,info@ccl.org.au

Thank you, Catharine. We would like to use the Citizens' Climate Lobby Australia as the launching platform for our Green Australia Program (GAP) and more or less lead the way for the international community to follow. We realize that in today's political climate it is tempting to focus on "man's activities" but scientists know that the earth is the most powerful force we can leverage to make the world GREEN. The limitless power of geological activity can and should be tapped to provide global plant life a nutritionally enhanced/supplemented environment in which to thrive. Global plant life is the key to GREEN.

[This Image was included in the message but cannot be inserted here in this post due to Climate-Debate limitations]

Tue, Jul 28 at 8:45 AM, Tom Hunt & Howard Witt <hunttomj@gmail.com> responded to IBDaMann, Cc'ed Citizens' Climate Lobby Australia

Dear Isaac, we are pleased to hear from you in regard to the current climate crisis.

Please be assured this crisis is a great risk and challenge of our time. This is the reason we are here.

Regarding your Concerns

1) It is not helpful to categorise people as "desirable" or
"undesirable". The important issue is to correct misunderstandings.
The most prestigious scientific Academies, including the Royal Society
and the US National Academy of Sciences have prepared clear and concise
explanations of the relevant science.

May I recommend that you and your colleagues avail yourselves of the
information they provide. This would be a great place to start.

https://royalsociety.org/topics-policy/projects/climate-change-evidence-causes/

2) You are correct that we promote the "Carbon Fee and Dividend"
carbon pricing policy.

This 16 min Dan Miller TED presentation gives a great summary of how it
works and why it is important

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k2-SzlDGko

3) You ask: "how can we help?" Yes, it is important that we all work together towards solutions. CCL volunteers encourage our fellow citizens to learn more about the causes and solutions to the climate crisis.

We do hope you find the time to review the references provided.

Regards, Tom Hunt & Howard Witt

Wed, Jul 29 at 12:55 AM, IBDaMann responded to Tom Hunt
and CC'ed Citizens' Climate Lobby Australia


Tom, my colleagues and I are eager to join you in making a GREEN Australia and a GREEN world. I think we're on the same page. The first misunderstanding I think we need to correct is the notion that the Royal Society and the US National Academy of Sciences are somehow prestigious or that the political leanings of their leaders are somehow relevant. All that is relevant is science, not politics, and my colleagues and I have science in spades. I can assure you, we have tried to discuss physics with those institutions and they are scams. They hire political activists and call them scientists. This does not advance any scientific understanding. We would encourage you to organize a debate on strictly science with those organizations regarding Global Warming and they will refuse (with pathetically lame excuses) because it turns out that they have no science and are, in fact, thoroughly dishonest.

So I would like to reiterate our desire to explain to you why there is no Greenhouse Effect, focused solely on physics, so that your positions are based on solid science. Additionally, we would be happy to dispell any political misinformation disguised as science that you were handed from any organizations similar to the above. Also, we would like to explain how to tap the earth's natural geological processes to really make the earth GREEN.

Regarding your promotion of romote the "Carbon Fee and Dividend"
carbon pricing policy and Dan Miller's 16-minute TED presentation "A simple and smart way to fix climate change | Dan Miller | TEDxOrangeCoast" ...

I hate to disappoint you but Dan Miller himself will tell you that he is not a scientist. We are scientists. Dan Miller can't be blamed for not fully understanding why he is egregiously mistaken. I would point out that if you base your positions on what Dan Miller has to say, your positions will be as egregiously wrong as he is.

Dan Miller cannot be blamed for citing Svante Arrhenius. Dan Miller was probably was never told that the reason there is no "Arrhenius Equation" is that all of Svante's work was erroneous, all of his conclusions were wrong and all of his models were subsequently discarded by science. There is no Greenhouse Effect formula in science because there is no Greenhouse Effect in science.

When he put up this image is when you should have stopped watching the video. This cannot happen; it's a violation of physics.

[global heat map image included in message cannot be posted here due to Climate-Debate limitations]

So we're here to help get the science right and to wade through the political misinformation you apparently are being handed. Once you get a clearer picture of the science, the sooner I'm sure that you will see geological processes as the best bet for a GREEN Australia and a GREEN planet.

We're on your side.

Wed, Jul 29 at 1:29 AM Tom Hunt <hunttomj@gmail.com> revealed CCLA's true colors to IBDaMann, CC'ed Citizens' Climate Lobby Australia

It seems we might have to agree to differ Isaac.
You see we believe what all of the reputable science organisations of the world are saying. We believe the IPCC reports which represents consensus from the best climate scientists from virtually every nation. We believe our CSIRO and our Bureau of Meterology.
I also believe my own eyes and physics training to see that the world is changing. One would have to be blind to not see the fossil fuel being added to our skys daily. Where does that petrol go that you pump into your car? Where does that 10,000,000,000 tonnes of coal that the world burns go every year go?

There will always be conspiracy stories of course and alternative views but we are staying with mainstream science, simple facts and practical experience. Yes there are mistruths in politics and business, but in simple science the facts are plain enough.

I wish you well in your alternative beliefs.

Cheers Tom Hunt
For our future

Sat, Aug 1 at 3:37 PM, IBDaMann responded to Tom Hunt, Cc'ed Citizens' Climate Lobby Australia

I'm sorry to hear that. We really thought you were serious about science but it would appear that our information was erroneous.

I'm sure you have heard of the "No True Scotsman Fallacy." It is dishonest to say that all of the reputable science organisations of the world are asserting egregrious violations of physics as settled science. You are dishonestly using the term "reputable science organisations" as a silly euphamism for "leftist political organisations."

Ask me how I know.

Actually, don't bother, I'll tell you. My colleagues and I are physicists. We do not have any political agenda other than to help others base their positions on solid science. You have made it clear that you have absolutely no interest in any science, but rather remain focused on violations of physics that support your political agenda. I would not have imagined this to be the case yet here we are.

We will cease and desist with any further offers to provide you with science support. We were genuinely trying to help you but clearly your organisation is a sham. You clearly are not pursuing any sort of viable solution to problems plaguing our environment.

I'll be sure to let everyone else know.

Very dissapointed, - IB


... and that closes out my interaction. I will keep the board posted should I receive any more correspondences on the matter.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
Edited on 02-08-2020 00:13
02-08-2020 00:59
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2550)
They probable did a Google search, that brought them here... They ran scared. Mostly, the seemed interested in your financial support, and your votes. You were a little harsh, and went straight to implying that they were complete morons, which of course, they deserved, from presuming you were clueless.
02-08-2020 02:05
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
HarveyH55 wrote:
They probable did a Google search, that brought them here... They ran scared. Mostly, the seemed interested in your financial support, and your votes. You were a little harsh, and went straight to implying that they were complete morons, which of course, they deserved, from presuming you were clueless.

I wanted to be honest up front and tell them that

1) I had a differing viewpoint and

2) I wanted to focus on science

I was clear what I wanted to discuss and I wanted to give them an opportunity to be honest. Their website states

"[We are] Non-Partisan: Our organisation is open to all who are serious about climate change. You are welcome no matter where you live, what you wear, what you do for a living, or who you voted for in the last election. We work with MPs and leaders from across the political spectrum because we believe that everyone is a potential ally."

"Integrity: We are prepared and do our research. We are always on time for meetings. Our approach is thoughtful and thorough. We consult experts and utilise data. We are open to new information; in fact we solicit opposing opinions. We refine our solutions to make them better. We follow up when we are asked. We keep on."

Of course we all can now see that this is a complete sham and, of course, I told them as much.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
02-08-2020 03:34
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1239)
This was a good read...

Yeah, they aren't the slightest bit interested in any science. They weren't even interested in listening to why you thought differently; they just pushed their talking points on you and then they were done the very moment that it became clear that you wouldn't convert to their religion...
02-08-2020 17:11
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(640)
Thank you IBDM I had good fortune to catch up with my brother and asked his point of veiw.He just went what a load of crap.The main stream are not buying it and as you have stated the thienth proves it
RE: An Additional Volley02-08-2020 23:29
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
I received one more response, mostly to tell me that they would not be further "distracted" by me.

Sat, Aug 1 at 6:57 PM, Tom Hunt <hunttomj@gmail.com> responded to IBDaMann, Cc'ed Citizens' Climate Lobby Australia

Thanks Isaac,

I too have a degree in physics, but all I need is common sense to judge that climate change is real and very serious. Just knowing how much CO2 is now in the sky and sea, and the correlation between that and past climate change is enough. The fires last summer, two months of continuous smoke and dust filled sky, is just more evidence to anyone with open eyes.
We will continue to follow the science and try not to be further distracted by conspiracy theorists.
Cheers. Tom

Sun, Aug 2 at 3:54 PM, IBDaMann responded to Tom Hunt

Tom, you aren't fooling me. You aren't fooling anyone. You have no physics background. Yes, you might have purchased a piece of paper from some institution that was strapped for cash but clearly you are scientifically illiterate. Science contains no hyped fear-mongering. Everything in science is unambiguously defined and you cannot define "Climate Change" in any unambiguous way that doesn't violate physics. Any actual physicist would know that there is no atmospheric composition component to the Stefan-Boltzmann law, i.e. for laymen like you, adding CO2 to the atmosphere cannot alter the earth's average temperature ... it's simply not possible.

If you had actually had any sort of chemistry you would know that CO2 is a heavier molecule than O2 or N2 and works its way downward towards the bottom of the atmosphere where it is eagerly consumed by plants. CO2 does not "accumulate" in our atmosphere. Any actual scientist can explain the carbon cycle to you.

Earth has had billions of years of forest fires and smoke and dust in the air. Billions of years. If you look outside you'll see the same bright blue skies that the ancient Sumerians enjoyed.

I know you are enjoying your sham. I just wanted you to be aware that you are the only one you are fooling.

Have a great day. - IB




.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-08-2020 00:17
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
All the correspondence is now posted on Politiplex.

https://politiplex.freeforums.net/thread/69/correspondence-citizens-climate-lobby-australia

@ Into the Night, thanks, great suggestion.
03-08-2020 04:39
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2550)
I'll bet there is going to be another response. His ego won't just let it go, he's got to put a 'conspiracy-nut' in his place, or accept the he's living in delusion.
03-08-2020 05:03
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1239)
HarveyH55 wrote:
I'll bet there is going to be another response. His ego won't just let it go, he's got to put a 'conspiracy-nut' in his place, or accept the he's living in delusion.

Another response would not surprise me either... he seems like one of the types who has to get the last word in...
03-08-2020 11:30
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2550)
gfm7175 wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
I'll bet there is going to be another response. His ego won't just let it go, he's got to put a 'conspiracy-nut' in his place, or accept the he's living in delusion.

Another response would not surprise me either... he seems like one of the types who has to get the last word in...


Mostly, he has to be right. It's not so much to convince others, but control his own doubts, and he can never be wrong.
03-08-2020 18:15
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
HarveyH55 wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
I'll bet there is going to be another response. His ego won't just let it go, he's got to put a 'conspiracy-nut' in his place, or accept the he's living in delusion.

Another response would not surprise me either... he seems like one of the types who has to get the last word in...


Mostly, he has to be right. It's not so much to convince others, but control his own doubts, and he can never be wrong.


Gentlemen, I'm guessing the opposite. I don't think he wants this back'n-forth to continue. It isn't a message board. This is an actual email chain with others in his organization seeing it. I'm guessing that he told them the same shilarkey that he is somehow an expert in physics and he doesn't want others realizing that he actually isn't.

My guess is that he wants to end it.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-08-2020 19:09
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1239)
IBdaMann wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
I'll bet there is going to be another response. His ego won't just let it go, he's got to put a 'conspiracy-nut' in his place, or accept the he's living in delusion.

Another response would not surprise me either... he seems like one of the types who has to get the last word in...


Mostly, he has to be right. It's not so much to convince others, but control his own doubts, and he can never be wrong.


Gentlemen, I'm guessing the opposite. I don't think he wants this back'n-forth to continue. It isn't a message board. This is an actual email chain with others in his organization seeing it. I'm guessing that he told them the same shilarkey that he is somehow an expert in physics and he doesn't want others realizing that he actually isn't.

My guess is that he wants to end it.

.

And the bets are in... The horses are now at the starting gates... In lane #1 we have "Zip The Lip", and in lane #2 we have "Ego Trip".

** BANG **

And they're off!!!!! ............
03-08-2020 20:54
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
Put me down for a C note on Zip the Lip.
Edited on 03-08-2020 20:55
03-08-2020 21:29
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1239)
GasGuzzler wrote:
Put me down for a C note on Zip the Lip.

Splendid!! Now we got two people for each horse.


... Zip The Lip is off to an early lead ...
03-08-2020 21:36
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
gfm7175 wrote: ... Zip The Lip is off to an early lead ...

Of course I'm betting against myself on this one because I want to get another crack at him, and I'm curious as to what his second-level mode is once he has been discovered. Naturally I will keep you posted but I just checked and still no return fire.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-08-2020 21:36
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2550)
y
IBdaMann wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
I'll bet there is going to be another response. His ego won't just let it go, he's got to put a 'conspiracy-nut' in his place, or accept the he's living in delusion.

Another response would not surprise me either... he seems like one of the types who has to get the last word in...


Mostly, he has to be right. It's not so much to convince others, but control his own doubts, and he can never be wrong.


Gentlemen, I'm guessing the opposite. I don't think he wants this back'n-forth to continue. It isn't a message board. This is an actual email chain with others in his organization seeing it. I'm guessing that he told them the same shilarkey that he is somehow an expert in physics and he doesn't want others realizing that he actually isn't.

My guess is that he wants to end it.

.


My guess is that he teaches a high school science class...

Physics covers a lot of fields, doubt there is even one 'physic expert'. Most people chose a field in physics, and dedicate their time to that. I don't claim to be an expert on anything, but know that there are new things in every field of study, all the time. I just focus on learning mostly stuff I can apply, or effects my life. Climate change does have some potential to have a huge impact on all of us, if the democrats gain control, and start spending on the 'Green New Deal'. It's not just an America thing, they want to go global. The facts, and the truth, don't often matter to democrats.
03-08-2020 23:27
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
HarveyH55 wrote:
y
IBdaMann wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
I'll bet there is going to be another response. His ego won't just let it go, he's got to put a 'conspiracy-nut' in his place, or accept the he's living in delusion.

Another response would not surprise me either... he seems like one of the types who has to get the last word in...


Mostly, he has to be right. It's not so much to convince others, but control his own doubts, and he can never be wrong.


Gentlemen, I'm guessing the opposite. I don't think he wants this back'n-forth to continue. It isn't a message board. This is an actual email chain with others in his organization seeing it. I'm guessing that he told them the same shilarkey that he is somehow an expert in physics and he doesn't want others realizing that he actually isn't.

My guess is that he wants to end it.

.


My guess is that he teaches a high school science class...

Physics covers a lot of fields, doubt there is even one 'physic expert'. Most people chose a field in physics, and dedicate their time to that. I don't claim to be an expert on anything, but know that there are new things in every field of study, all the time. I just focus on learning mostly stuff I can apply, or effects my life. Climate change does have some potential to have a huge impact on all of us, if the democrats gain control, and start spending on the 'Green New Deal'. It's not just an America thing, they want to go global. The facts, and the truth, don't often matter to democrats.


Unfortunately, 'climate change' (whatever THAT is!) has nothing to do with science.
You are quite right in that the Democrats want to make the Church of Global Warming the state religion, even throwing non-believers into jail for their lack of faith in this religion.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 03-08-2020 23:28
04-08-2020 05:57
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
gfm7175 wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
Put me down for a C note on Zip the Lip.

Splendid!! Now we got two people for each horse.


... Zip The Lip is off to an early lead ...


Here's the way I see it.

Zip the Lip can get a win by doing nothing, almost as if creating energy out of nothing.

See why I put my money where I did?


All the time the base and surface are at equal temperature as the equilibrium graduates to establish the temperature development--Pete Rogers
04-08-2020 06:52
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
Into the Night wrote:You are quite right in that the Democrats want to make the Church of Global Warming the state religion, even throwing non-believers into jail for their lack of faith in this religion.














.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
04-08-2020 16:25
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1239)
GasGuzzler wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
Put me down for a C note on Zip the Lip.

Splendid!! Now we got two people for each horse.


... Zip The Lip is off to an early lead ...


Here's the way I see it.

Zip the Lip can get a win by doing nothing, almost as if creating energy out of nothing.

See why I put my money where I did?





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