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Boeing17-12-2019 18:12
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
Boeing stopped stopped production of the 737 Max. It shouldn't surprise anyone since Spirit Airline recently placed a multi billion dollar order with Airbus. I didn't think Boeing's CEO did a good job defending Boeing in front of Congress.
Having an engineer act like a lawyer isn't a good idea.
Maybe putting new wine (new engines) into old wineskins (Boeing 737) wasn't a good idea either.
17-12-2019 18:14
spot
★★★★☆
(1317)
The main problem is the things have a tendency to crash.
17-12-2019 18:46
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
spot,
Sometimes i wonder if they are getting to complicated.
17-12-2019 20:05
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11753)
keepit wrote:
Boeing stopped stopped production of the 737 Max. It shouldn't surprise anyone since Spirit Airline recently placed a multi billion dollar order with Airbus. I didn't think Boeing's CEO did a good job defending Boeing in front of Congress.
Having an engineer act like a lawyer isn't a good idea.
Maybe putting new wine (new engines) into old wineskins (Boeing 737) wasn't a good idea either.


They stopped production until the 737MAX can get certified. No much point in building uncertified aircraft.

The 737 line was becoming less popular anyway. The 777 and 787 are taking more of that market now.


The Parrot Killer
17-12-2019 20:07
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11753)
spot wrote:
The main problem is the things have a tendency to crash.


Ever see a spider crash?

You'd think they would...they have eight legs to figure out and eight eyes to confuse what they see.

But they run pretty fast for their size!

I only go to slug races to see the wrecks.


The Parrot Killer
17-12-2019 20:22
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
ITN,
Your optimism is probably ok but i'm feeling kind of pessimistic about it.
17-12-2019 20:25
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11753)
keepit wrote:
spot,
Sometimes i wonder if they are getting to complicated.


Aircraft are complicated machines...even one as simple as an ultralight (like a dirt bike for the sky).

Most have never crashed. Indeed, as a percentage of the flying machines that are out there, the number that crash is pretty low, compared to automobiles.

Machines break. It is quite possible to land a broken airplane. If an engine fails, treat it like a glider. That is, in the end, what a fixed wing aircraft really is. A normal landing has the engine throttled back to idle. It isn't producing any power.

I've dealt with several such events:

* I've had an artificial horizon instrument fail during approach. I just followed the radio signal down and used the compass and turn indicator.
* I've had an engine throw a rod in flight while I was in instrument conditions. I glided to an airport. It could have just as easily been an open field or a road.
* I've had engines quit on takeoff due to fuel problems. I landed back on the airport except in one case, where it was safer to land in an open field.
* I've had electrical fire in flight. I shut off the electrical circuits and glided to an airport.
* I've had parts fall off an airplane in flight. Once it was a tailwheel. I landed, using the airframe itself as a skid.
* I've had radios fail in flight. I just switched to another radio and completed the flight.
* I've flown aircraft with trim systems wildly out of control. I just shut them off and put up with the extra control pressures until I can land.

You deal with them. The two crashes from the 737MAX were both pilot error, with the trim system of the aircraft as a contributing factor (but not the cause of the crash). Those pilots crashed because they simply didn't shut off the trim system and fly the airplane without it. They were poorly trained....a common problem with pilots outside the U.S.


The Parrot Killer
17-12-2019 20:26
spot
★★★★☆
(1317)
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
The main problem is the things have a tendency to crash.


Ever see a spider crash?

You'd think they would...they have eight legs to figure out and eight eyes to confuse what they see.

But they run pretty fast for their size!

I only go to slug races to see the wrecks.


and your point is..........


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
17-12-2019 20:28
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11753)
keepit wrote:
ITN,
Your optimism is probably ok but i'm feeling kind of pessimistic about it.


Obviously. Given time for the FAA to get off their butt, the aircraft will be recertified. Stay on the U.S. domestic flights for the best pilots. If you fly in foreign lands, you can get some real yo-yo's for pilots.


The Parrot Killer
17-12-2019 20:29
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11753)
spot wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
The main problem is the things have a tendency to crash.


Ever see a spider crash?

You'd think they would...they have eight legs to figure out and eight eyes to confuse what they see.

But they run pretty fast for their size!

I only go to slug races to see the wrecks.


and your point is..........


There are exceptions to your generic statement.


The Parrot Killer
17-12-2019 20:34
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
ITN,
Agreed on the pilot thing.
17-12-2019 21:24
spot
★★★★☆
(1317)
Into the Night wrote:
They were poorly trained....a common problem with pilots outside the U.S.


Airbus don't seem to have a problem with the pilots.


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
17-12-2019 22:16
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11753)
spot wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
They were poorly trained....a common problem with pilots outside the U.S.


Airbus don't seem to have a problem with the pilots.


They do. Airbus has had wrecks from these yo-yo's just the same as Boeing has. They are caused by pilot error and poor training.

BTW, Airbus never did fix that fin spar.


The Parrot Killer
17-12-2019 23:05
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
I think i remember something about Airbus having a problem that sounded to me like a stall warning system problem about 4 years ago.
17-12-2019 23:33
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11753)
keepit wrote:
I think i remember something about Airbus having a problem that sounded to me like a stall warning system problem about 4 years ago.

Don't recall that one. They did, and still do, have a problem with the tail fin spar. Heavy use of the rudder will cause that spar to break. The entire fin will depart the aircraft. This is a catastrophic failure of the airframe, and no pilot skill can save it. The plane dutch rolls into the ground.

Pilots flying that thing today are trained to not use the rudder so heavily (which improves their flying anyway).


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 17-12-2019 23:34
17-12-2019 23:54
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
Can't they fix that. The rudder isn't used a lot in airliner but still, you don't want loose ends.
18-12-2019 01:36
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
ITN,
That list of airborne mishaps is pretty long to say the least. How many hours do you have, 400,000?
I have 5000 but i can only remember running out of gas once and 1 fuel pump failure. Maybe i was lucky but that list is just too much. Maybe you should stay on the ground.
18-12-2019 01:58
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11753)
keepit wrote:
Can't they fix that. The rudder isn't used a lot in airliner but still, you don't want loose ends.


Only by redesigning the spar. Unfortunately, that aircraft requires a rather large fin. No one has ever built such a large fin out of composite materials before.

They could go back to an aluminum spar and try to get the composites to stick to it, but that means more expense and it may not work. Composites don't stick to aluminum very well.

They could just build the whole fin out of aluminum, but that is even more expensive.

Beefing up the spar adds weight and may not work to strengthen the spar as required.

All aircraft designs have 'loose ends'. Every aircraft is a compromise between conflicting requirements. You balance the requirements for the intended mission of that aircraft. Every aircraft flying has some flaws in its design.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 18-12-2019 02:00
18-12-2019 02:02
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11753)
keepit wrote:
ITN,
That list of airborne mishaps is pretty long to say the least. How many hours do you have, 400,000?
I have 5000 but i can only remember running out of gas once and 1 fuel pump failure. Maybe i was lucky but that list is just too much. Maybe you should stay on the ground.


It's probably because I fly many more different aircraft than you do. I also do more flight testing than you do. I never ran out of gas.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 18-12-2019 02:03
18-12-2019 03:06
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
OK. I guess i understand that but it still seems like a lot of mishaps. That many mishaps would cause me to stay on the ground, after a while.
18-12-2019 03:55
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(2520)
keepit wrote:
OK. I guess i understand that but it still seems like a lot of mishaps. That many mishaps would cause me to stay on the ground, after a while.


18-12-2019 19:20
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1641)
keepit wrote:
OK. I guess i understand that but it still seems like a lot of mishaps. That many mishaps would cause me to stay on the ground, after a while.


Fact of life #1...shit happens

Fact of life #2...shit breaks

If I'm in the air, no one I'd rather have at the controls than Into the Night. Given that he's alive, he's proven he can handle it when something breaks and shit happens. If you're ever in Eastern Iowa, I'd love to go up with you!


gasguzzler, calling the jet stream the "Norwegian jet stream" is a bigoted statement. -James-
18-12-2019 19:27
spot
★★★★☆
(1317)
GasGuzzler wrote:
keepit wrote:
OK. I guess i understand that but it still seems like a lot of mishaps. That many mishaps would cause me to stay on the ground, after a while.


Fact of life #1...shit happens

Fact of life #2...shit breaks

If I'm in the air, no one I'd rather have at the controls than Into the Night. Given that he's alive, he's proven he can handle it when something breaks and shit happens. If you're ever in Eastern Iowa, I'd love to go up with you!




This place is full of loons


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
18-12-2019 23:28
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11753)
keepit wrote:
OK. I guess i understand that but it still seems like a lot of mishaps. That many mishaps would cause me to stay on the ground, after a while.


Nah. You deal with it when it happens. Staying on the ground won't save you. You can have mishaps just walking down the road (or driving a car). Indeed, most mishaps happen right in your own home.


The Parrot Killer
18-12-2019 23:30
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11753)
GasGuzzler wrote:
keepit wrote:
OK. I guess i understand that but it still seems like a lot of mishaps. That many mishaps would cause me to stay on the ground, after a while.


Fact of life #1...shit happens

Fact of life #2...shit breaks

If I'm in the air, no one I'd rather have at the controls than Into the Night. Given that he's alive, he's proven he can handle it when something breaks and shit happens. If you're ever in Eastern Iowa, I'd love to go up with you!


If I head out that way with my plane, I'll PM you so we can meet up!
If you ever come to the Seattle area, lemme know. I'll be happy to take you up.


The Parrot Killer
19-12-2019 06:01
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1641)
Into the Night wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
[quote]keepit wrote:
OK. I guess i understand that but it still seems like a lot of mishaps. That many mishaps would cause me to stay on the ground, after a while.


Fact of life #1...shit happens

Fact of life #2...shit breaks

If I'm in the air, no one I'd rather have at the controls than Into the Night. Given that he's alive, he's proven he can handle it when something breaks and shit happens. If you're ever in Eastern Iowa, I'd love to go up with you!


Into the Night wrote:If I head out that way with my plane, I'll PM you so we can meet up!


Sounds great, but that's quite a haul. Looks like 13-14 hrs air time plus a couple fuel stops....but hey, any time let me know.


Into the Night wrote:If you ever come to the Seattle area, lemme know. I'll be happy to take you up.


I've been west to the Black Hills and the Colorado Rockies, south to Mexico, east to Ireland, and north to the Hudson Bay area. Never been to Seattle. I would Love to see the Pacific NW. What day next summer can you guarantee no fog?!



gasguzzler, calling the jet stream the "Norwegian jet stream" is a bigoted statement. -James-
Edited on 19-12-2019 06:02
19-12-2019 20:21
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11753)
GasGuzzler wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
[quote]keepit wrote:
OK. I guess i understand that but it still seems like a lot of mishaps. That many mishaps would cause me to stay on the ground, after a while.


Fact of life #1...shit happens

Fact of life #2...shit breaks

If I'm in the air, no one I'd rather have at the controls than Into the Night. Given that he's alive, he's proven he can handle it when something breaks and shit happens. If you're ever in Eastern Iowa, I'd love to go up with you!


Into the Night wrote:If I head out that way with my plane, I'll PM you so we can meet up!


Sounds great, but that's quite a haul. Looks like 13-14 hrs air time plus a couple fuel stops....but hey, any time let me know.

Heh. Depends on the plane. Yes, it's quite a haul. The furthest I've had my Cessna 150 east is Colorado. I have flown a Cessna Cutlass from Iowa though (my brother bought it there). That took three days because of an exhaust system repair I had to do in Minnesota (bad gasket). That was the plane later had the electrical fire in. We eventually traced it to the gear pump assembly.
GasGuzzler wrote:
Into the Night wrote:If you ever come to the Seattle area, lemme know. I'll be happy to take you up.


I've been west to the Black Hills and the Colorado Rockies, south to Mexico, east to Ireland, and north to the Hudson Bay area. Never been to Seattle. I would Love to see the Pacific NW. What day next summer can you guarantee no fog?!


Heh. None!

Summer in the PNW is relatively free of fog though. Best times to visit are June and July. August is also a good month, but I'm away during about 10 days of that. September is when our temperatures start to drop of course, and fog is occasionally a problem. Our heaviest fogs are typically in October and early November.

Our flying season is short here...most like to fly between late June and early October.

The PNW is a beautiful place to fly in. Between the water and the mountains around here, there is always something great to see!


The Parrot Killer
23-12-2019 18:41
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
Mullenburg out as Boeing CEO.
24-12-2019 12:50
Amanbir GrewalProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(108)
Boeing shud build a dam, and like make it fly or something.




Join the debate Boeing:

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