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Bailouts


Bailouts20-03-2020 01:16
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
Bailouts are being discussed as a result of the virus' effects. The govt will take an ownership position as they did during the last crisis. Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't govt ownership of too much a socialist thing.
Keep in mind that the fed made a big profit the last time this happened.
20-03-2020 02:13
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(6253)
keepit wrote:
Bailouts are being discussed as a result of the virus' effects. The govt will take an ownership position as they did during the last crisis. Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't govt ownership of too much a socialist thing.
Keep in mind that the fed made a big profit the last time this happened.

Government ownership is socialist whereas State ownership is Marxist/Communist.


.


Sea level varies from place to place in the world - keepit

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
20-03-2020 02:25
James___
★★★★★
(2420)
keepit wrote:
Bailouts are being discussed as a result of the virus' effects. The govt will take an ownership position as they did during the last crisis. Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't govt ownership of too much a socialist thing.
Keep in mind that the fed made a big profit the last time this happened.



When most Americans live paycheck to paycheck and debt is what fuels the US economy, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNrOZxfVuSI
20-03-2020 02:26
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
I don't get the difference between govt ownership and state ownership.
I wouldn't want to lose boeing though.
20-03-2020 03:41
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(6253)
keepit wrote: I don't get the difference between govt ownership and state ownership. I wouldn't want to lose boeing though.

The government is the government. The people are the State. In the US, the government is supposed to be providing services to We the People who retain the power. In socialism, the government holds the power and the people serve the government, i.e. the State is controlled by the government, not by the people. Socialists love big powerful government agencies because although they completely control the people and eradicate liberty and destroy the economy, at least they accomplish the primary objective of making everything FAIR.

Communism has no government, i.e. it is a State with no government. Communists HATE the police, the military, the FBI, and all government agencies. Communists presume the purpose of government agencies is to control the people by force, or to kill them, per the wishes of the ruling class.

As such, socialists and communists are historically at each others' throats. Ever since the publishing of the Communist Manifesto, communists have been brutally oppressed, not by Republicans mind you, but by socialist leaders, often in the form of military regimes. Hitler was a great example; his first victims were Germany's Communist Party, and communists were the first to be sent to the first concentration camp ... not Jews.

Communists, on the other hand, remained defiant. This was a piece of WWII communist propaganda, The Defiant Communist, and you can guess who the "bad guy" is in their minds [hint: not "evil capitalist imperialists"]:



We all know that General Omar Torrijos, socialist dictator of Panamá who came to power via coup d'etat signed the Carter-Torrijos Treaty of 1977 ceding the Canal Zone back to Panamá. What I recently learned is that Jimmy Carter was happy to treat with Torrijos because Torrijos was a rabid hater of communists who had them hunted down and killed mercilessly. Of course it all makes sense. Socialists like Torrijos and Carter always feel much better when the "communist cockroaches" are being exterminated.




.


Sea level varies from place to place in the world - keepit

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
Edited on 20-03-2020 03:47
20-03-2020 04:03
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
Sorry IBDM but it sounds like word play to me. Better known as semantics.
20-03-2020 07:59
Amanbir GrewalProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(113)
once it's been decided that markets have to be protected in the long-term interest of general welfare, that the market is an operation in public welfare, and not just a profit-making venture, public policy directs itself majorly toward risk aversion and security.

policy tends to be dominant over most adventurous and independent activity, even it means playing a minimal role.
20-03-2020 19:08
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11754)
keepit wrote:
Sorry IBDM but it sounds like word play to me. Better known as semantics.

Too bad. He was dead on accurate and perfectly clear. Perhaps you had better learn English.
Your attempt to ignore history because you don't know the language doesn't wash.


The Parrot Killer
20-03-2020 20:42
James___
★★★★★
(2420)
keepit wrote:
I don't get the difference between govt ownership and state ownership.
I wouldn't want to lose boeing though.



With bailouts of companies, the intent is to return the company to the private sector. GM was one example of this. With large corporations, if they don't have the financial reserves, why? It would suggest to me that those companies have poor fiscal management. Basically they rely on being over extended as a part of their business model.
An example of state ran business would be oil and natural gas in Norway. They regulate production and the money helps to pay for government services such as health care. Norwegians consider natural gas and oil to be resources that belongs to Norwegians.
In the US, the private sector that has rights to those resources gets rich instead.
Edited on 20-03-2020 20:47
21-03-2020 02:17
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1641)
James wrote:
GM was one example of this. With large corporations, if they don't have the financial reserves, why? It would suggest to me that those companies have poor fiscal management. Basically they rely on being over extended as a part of their business model.


Could it be they have been forced into building and selling vehicles that people don't want through ridiculous fuel/fleet standards?

James wrote:
In the US, the private sector that has rights to those resources gets rich instead.


Who knew? All I had to do was buy land with oil under the surface and I would have been filthy rich!
Edited on 21-03-2020 03:12
21-03-2020 03:38
James___
★★★★★
(2420)
GasGuzzler wrote:
James wrote:
GM was one example of this. With large corporations, if they don't have the financial reserves, why? It would suggest to me that those companies have poor fiscal management. Basically they rely on being over extended as a part of their business model.


Could it be they have been forced into building and selling vehicles that people don't want through ridiculous fuel/fleet standards?

James wrote:
In the US, the private sector that has rights to those resources gets rich instead.


Who knew? All I had to do was buy land with oil under the surface and I would have been filthy rich!



Yep.

Could it be they have been forced into building and selling vehicles that people don't want through ridiculous fuel/fleet standards?



Right again. My cousin has a BMW. It's all he could afford. He lives in Ålesund.
The link is incase the image doesn't attach. And I know you have it better than him GasGuzzler.

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10155653643705050&set=ecnf.609800049
Attached image:


Edited on 21-03-2020 03:44
21-03-2020 05:11
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1743)
I don't believe in bailouts. Bankruptcy shouldn't be so forgiving either. Companies don't need to be fiscally responsible, if there is very little chance of losing, when they gamble. Greedy companies should fail, and fall. It opens up room for other businesses to grow, and take their place. A growing business, is most likely to make better products, provide better service, and at the most reasonable price. They need to grow, build a positive reputation.
21-03-2020 09:44
Amanbir GrewalProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(113)
when we made our first shack in fake city on the banks of the little rhine, we forgot to borrow hard money, for all we had was soft money.

then there were storms, gremlins, st. augustine and the feud, and of course, the conscription.

the rhine flows like mad during the monsoon.


AUGUST COMTE AN EMPLOYED SOCIALIST BEFORE A PANEL OTHERWISE A SIMPLE PLANNER OF GUISES AND POTIONS
21-03-2020 20:55
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11754)
HarveyH55 wrote:
I don't believe in bailouts. Bankruptcy shouldn't be so forgiving either. Companies don't need to be fiscally responsible, if there is very little chance of losing, when they gamble. Greedy companies should fail, and fall. It opens up room for other businesses to grow, and take their place. A growing business, is most likely to make better products, provide better service, and at the most reasonable price. They need to grow, build a positive reputation.


Bankruptcy isn't an easy process. Companies lose a lot when they file for it. Bankruptcy laws exist to organize how debtors are going to get paid with what's left, some debtors are discharged without pay (usually due to usury), company leaders often are forced to step down, stockholders lose some or all of their investments and may sue the company leaders, etc.

Certain debts can't be discharged, such as lawsuit judgements against you, etc.

They company may even be sold to another buyer that will turn the thing around and make a profit with it where the previous company leaders failed.

The purpose of bankruptcy laws to organize the disaster and provide a path for the company to possibly be productive again under new leadership.

In China, there are no bankruptcy laws. A debtor that can't pay his debts is dealt with by the loaner's 'enforcers'. They will get their pound of flesh one way or another. There is no chance for a buyer to restructure things to a productive path again.

Bankruptcy laws were written into the Constitution of the United States for a reason. At the time, debtors in the UK went to prison and rotted there, and the companies completely dissolved, with no chance for recovery under competent leadership. It was brutal, and people died in debtors prison. To avoid this, people would flee to other countries, to get as far away from the law as possible. This is a big factor in why Nassau became home to so many pirates. They became criminals to avoid debtors prison.



With all that said, when a government tries to interfere with the economy to try to save what it deems are 'necessary' businesses, they are picking and choosing which companies are allowed to exist. This is fascism. Instead of the bailouts for 'companies too big to fail', these unproductive companies should have been allowed to fail, enter bankruptcy, and be sold to productive leaders. This removes incompetent leaders and replaces them with more competent ones.

What the bailouts did is prevent this natural process, leaving incompetent leaders of these companies not only at the helm, but now protected by the government. This is one of the reasons why fascism is wrong.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 21-03-2020 21:00
21-03-2020 22:27
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1743)
Into the Night wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
I don't believe in bailouts. Bankruptcy shouldn't be so forgiving either. Companies don't need to be fiscally responsible, if there is very little chance of losing, when they gamble. Greedy companies should fail, and fall. It opens up room for other businesses to grow, and take their place. A growing business, is most likely to make better products, provide better service, and at the most reasonable price. They need to grow, build a positive reputation.


Bankruptcy isn't an easy process. Companies lose a lot when they file for it. Bankruptcy laws exist to organize how debtors are going to get paid with what's left, some debtors are discharged without pay (usually due to usury), company leaders often are forced to step down, stockholders lose some or all of their investments and may sue the company leaders, etc.

Certain debts can't be discharged, such as lawsuit judgements against you, etc.

They company may even be sold to another buyer that will turn the thing around and make a profit with it where the previous company leaders failed.

The purpose of bankruptcy laws to organize the disaster and provide a path for the company to possibly be productive again under new leadership.

In China, there are no bankruptcy laws. A debtor that can't pay his debts is dealt with by the loaner's 'enforcers'. They will get their pound of flesh one way or another. There is no chance for a buyer to restructure things to a productive path again.

Bankruptcy laws were written into the Constitution of the United States for a reason. At the time, debtors in the UK went to prison and rotted there, and the companies completely dissolved, with no chance for recovery under competent leadership. It was brutal, and people died in debtors prison. To avoid this, people would flee to other countries, to get as far away from the law as possible. This is a big factor in why Nassau became home to so many pirates. They became criminals to avoid debtors prison.



With all that said, when a government tries to interfere with the economy to try to save what it deems are 'necessary' businesses, they are picking and choosing which companies are allowed to exist. This is fascism. Instead of the bailouts for 'companies too big to fail', these unproductive companies should have been allowed to fail, enter bankruptcy, and be sold to productive leaders. This removes incompetent leaders and replaces them with more competent ones.

What the bailouts did is prevent this natural process, leaving incompetent leaders of these companies not only at the helm, but now protected by the government. This is one of the reasons why fascism is wrong.


The over-simplified version... There are a couple of dozen bankruptcy options to chose from. Lots of people have used them, and still made a nice profit, even kept their business. Just depends on how the business uses/abuses the law.

This is America... Everything intend to help people in need, will always get exploited, and used to turn a profit, at somebody else's expense. You can get rich, by spending your own money...
21-03-2020 23:31
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
Back in the financial crisis of 2007,8,9 the Fed and the Treasury participated in the bailout. The Fed actually made a profit when they got paid back. I was all a pretty good idea except i thought some people should have gone to jail for fraud.
22-03-2020 00:00
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1641)
keepit wrote:
Back in the financial crisis of 2007,8,9 the Fed and the Treasury participated in the bailout. The Fed actually made a profit when they got paid back. I was all a pretty good idea except i thought some people should have gone to jail for fraud.


Names?


gasguzzler, calling the jet stream the "Norwegian jet stream" is a bigoted statement. -James-
22-03-2020 00:15
James___
★★★★★
(2420)
Into the Night wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
I don't believe in bailouts. Bankruptcy shouldn't be so forgiving either. Companies don't need to be fiscally responsible, if there is very little chance of losing, when they gamble. Greedy companies should fail, and fall. It opens up room for other businesses to grow, and take their place. A growing business, is most likely to make better products, provide better service, and at the most reasonable price. They need to grow, build a positive reputation.


Bankruptcy isn't an easy process. Companies lose a lot when they file for it. Bankruptcy laws exist to organize how debtors are going to get paid with what's left, some debtors are discharged without pay (usually due to usury), company leaders often are forced to step down, stockholders lose some or all of their investments and may sue the company leaders, etc.

Certain debts can't be discharged, such as lawsuit judgements against you, etc.

They company may even be sold to another buyer that will turn the thing around and make a profit with it where the previous company leaders failed.

The purpose of bankruptcy laws to organize the disaster and provide a path for the company to possibly be productive again under new leadership.

In China, there are no bankruptcy laws. A debtor that can't pay his debts is dealt with by the loaner's 'enforcers'. They will get their pound of flesh one way or another. There is no chance for a buyer to restructure things to a productive path again.

Bankruptcy laws were written into the Constitution of the United States for a reason. At the time, debtors in the UK went to prison and rotted there, and the companies completely dissolved, with no chance for recovery under competent leadership. It was brutal, and people died in debtors prison. To avoid this, people would flee to other countries, to get as far away from the law as possible. This is a big factor in why Nassau became home to so many pirates. They became criminals to avoid debtors prison.



With all that said, when a government tries to interfere with the economy to try to save what it deems are 'necessary' businesses, they are picking and choosing which companies are allowed to exist. This is fascism. Instead of the bailouts for 'companies too big to fail', these unproductive companies should have been allowed to fail, enter bankruptcy, and be sold to productive leaders. This removes incompetent leaders and replaces them with more competent ones.

What the bailouts did is prevent this natural process, leaving incompetent leaders of these companies not only at the helm, but now protected by the government. This is one of the reasons why fascism is wrong.



The tax laws encourage a company over extending itself financially. If a company spends more than its revenue supports, the loss it takes will be a write off in the future. This allows companies to avoid paying tax or lessen its tax burden.
This is good for shareholders if the company leverages its stock to a greater value.
One example of this is Netflix spending $8 Billion for programming when its revenue is only $6 Billion. They won't be paying taxes while its stock valuation increases despite it's taking on debt.
28-03-2020 20:16
Amanbir GrewalProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(113)
i think the brothers are trying to teach about futures or something!


AUGUST COMTE AN EMPLOYED SOCIALIST BEFORE A PANEL OTHERWISE A SIMPLE PLANNER OF GUISES AND POTIONS
28-03-2020 22:31
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11754)
keepit wrote:
Back in the financial crisis of 2007,8,9 the Fed and the Treasury participated in the bailout. The Fed actually made a profit when they got paid back. I was all a pretty good idea except i thought some people should have gone to jail for fraud.


The Fed does not make a profit...ever.

Still batting 0.00.


The Parrot Killer
28-03-2020 22:58
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
Am i the only one here that knows the fed makes a profit?
29-03-2020 08:31
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(6253)
keepit wrote: Am i the only one here that knows the fed makes a profit?

You might very well be the only one who thinks that. Were you planning on taking a poll?



.


Sea level varies from place to place in the world - keepit

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
29-03-2020 18:27
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
IBD,
Do you think the fed often makes a profit? Come on IBD, be real, give a real answer.
29-03-2020 20:59
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11754)
keepit wrote:
Am i the only one here that knows the fed makes a profit?


The federal reserve does not make a profit...ever. The federal government does not make a profit...ever. Governments don't make profit. That's the real answer.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 29-03-2020 21:00
29-03-2020 21:53
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
Read about it in wikipedia ITN.
29-03-2020 22:15
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11754)
keepit wrote:
Read about it in wikipedia ITN.

Wikipedia is wrong, as usual. You cannot use that as an authoritative reference on anything with me.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 29-03-2020 22:16
29-03-2020 22:45
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(6253)
keepit wrote: IBD, Do you think the fed often makes a profit? Come on IBD, be real, give a real answer.

That's like asking if the valve on the water heater tank ever gets water of its own.

The Fed doesn't get money. It controls money. Others own the money that the Fed controls.



.


Sea level varies from place to place in the world - keepit

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
30-03-2020 00:17
keepit
★★★★☆
(1220)
The fed makes digital money out of nothing and sends it to the banks. The banks later pay it back.
30-03-2020 02:29
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(6253)
keepit wrote: The fed makes digital money out of nothing and sends it to the banks. The banks later pay it back.

That doesn't mean that the Fed somehow gets it all. The Fed doesn't get any of it.


.


Sea level varies from place to place in the world - keepit

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
30-03-2020 21:27
Amanbir GrewalProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(113)
extremes are being taken to strict church attendance and malfeasance sins.

just what i need in a tricky situation, holiness and the devout rambling on about why good people get hurt for nothing.


AUGUST COMTE AN EMPLOYED SOCIALIST BEFORE A PANEL OTHERWISE A SIMPLE PLANNER OF GUISES AND POTIONS
30-03-2020 22:31
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(11754)
keepit wrote:
The fed makes digital money out of nothing and sends it to the banks. The banks later pay it back.


Nope. The banks don't pay it back. It's not a loan. They also don't get money created out of nothing.

The GOVERNMENT gets money out of nothing, not the banks.

Still batting 0.00.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 30-03-2020 22:33
01-04-2020 23:02
Amanbir GrewalProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(113)
your risk-bearing capacity seems to skyrocket when you learn of the new govt. plan for bailouts in central texas!!!

random business ideas burst out of your head at the mention of someone else's capital at stake, THIRD PARTY ENTREPRENEURSHIP?

first the whole bomb noise about why you need to take all the risk for your big shoulders and build NEW TOWN, now the small face when the little accountants pay for it at the end of the shamble.


if you're not even into uncertainty, and you're not in jerusalem, are you in space?

that's a locational question. meditation caves and holy wine, spinning records?


AUGUST COMTE AN EMPLOYED SOCIALIST BEFORE A PANEL OTHERWISE A SIMPLE PLANNER OF GUISES AND POTIONS




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