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An open letter to all members of Climate-debate.com



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An open letter to all members of Climate-debate.com24-10-2015 04:14
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
Earlier this evening I wrote a post which implied that I was pretty much through with this website, and I am. So, shortly after that, I logged off and went to Google to find a new website where I could discuss climate change, and what I learned really surprised me. What I found were a lot of places where people did things like actually vote on climate change issues. I was dumbfounded. What is there to vote on in climate change? How could anyone even think they knew enough to do such a thing? After all, climate change science is, for all practical purposes, still in its infancy. And then, while pondering this conundrum, I finally realized that I had made a terrible mistake, and that's why I came back to make this final post.

When I first found this website through a Google search a few weeks ago, I was very excited about it. "Wow," I thought, "this is going to be a great place where I can discuss all the ideas I have about climate change in a supportive and friendly environment!" Also, it had a free, open access policy where you could comment on other peoples' threads or even start new ones of your own. You don't find places like this much on the internet anymore, as they've mostly gone the way of the rotary dial phone and eight-track music cassettes. So, I joined, and what I found out next really shocked me.

Contrary to what I had hoped, this website does not provide a supportive and friendly environment to discuss and share ideas. In fact, it seems to do just the opposite. Instead of people sharing their ideas, they tear each others' ideas to shreds. Instead of posting supportive comments with creative ideas, they shoot each other down, criticizing both each others' contents as well as each other. And that made me mad. "What a waste," I thought. Here was an opportunity to openly discuss a fascinating topic in creative and synergistic ways, but almost no one seemed interested in doing that. And so, over the past few weeks, I've tried to change that. In my own sometimes misguided ways, I've tried to stop all the negative interactions that were happening here, and to make this website into a place based on sharing and mutual respect.

But I was wrong. Why? Because I came here seeking to discuss climate change. Unfortunately, I made one very critical error when I first joined. I misread this website's name. This isn't Climate-discuss.com. It's Climate-debate.com. And discussion and debate are two very different things.

Discussion happen when two or more people gather to share and consider each other's point of view. Debate happens when two people with opposing views try to win an argument. Debates are what lawyers do in a court room. They're not there to share ideas and be supportive of each other. They're not there to discuss whether or not something is good or bad. They're not there to consider whether or not something is right or wrong. They're there to win, because that's what they get paid for: to win. So when Into the Night posts his "few rules", or Tim the Plumber says "only the good argument survive", or when IbdaMann proclaims "so you're tipping your king", they're not doing these things in order to discuss something. They're here to debate. They're here to win. And that's exactly what this website is here for people to do: debate.

In the end, I was the one who made a huge mistake, and I did so the moment I walked through the door here. I'm not a debater. I discuss. So if anyone doesn't belong here, it's me, and that's why I'm leaving. But I first had to come back and admit to my mistake, because I am wrong. This is Climate-debate.com.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
24-10-2015 04:58
Totototo
★☆☆☆☆
(117)
Good luck tranf. I hope you find another website and good luck with your book. I will still read it and tell you what I think.
24-10-2015 13:14
branner
AdministratorProfile picture☆☆☆☆☆
(33)
@trafn

I think you have taken your decision too quickly. I know you have been very active, and therefore 4 weeks can feel like a really long time. But actually my experience from Klimadebat.dk tells me that a lot of users come and go, and the atmosphere of a forum quickly can change (e.g. from "debate" to "discussion", to use your terminology). 4 weeks is really not enough to tell the destiny of the forum. Also, I'm about to send out the site's first newsletter quite soon, which has 500 recipients (you can opt-in when you sign up). In that way, I think a lot of the old users would be reactivated.

Instead of giving up I think you should try to attract more qualified users, and thereby making the active user base bigger. Having let's say 100 regular contributors instead of a dozen would really help preventing that the forum turns into someone's "personal stomping ground".

As I mentioned in the other thread, I'm looking for a moderator or two, who can take action based on some guidelines that still need to be written. I would like to get your opinion on that.

But anyway, if you have taken the decision, then good luck, and I hope you will come back and see if things have changed. You do belong here. I have build this site, so it is completely open and free, very fast and convenient to use, 100% without ads for the registered users etc. I think you'll get a hard time to find that somewhere else.
Edited on 24-10-2015 13:45
24-10-2015 14:14
Tim the plumber
★★★★☆
(1295)
Last night I heard that the death toll of war during the 20th century was around 100 million.

Several times that number have died unnecessarily due to the use of food as fuel.

This is the damage bad science is doing. Your feelings and wish to have an echo chamber for your very evil religion are not significant against that background.

Grow up.
24-10-2015 17:26
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@branner - With this one exception*, I am no longer publicly posting here, but I will be checking in periodically to PM.

I do NOT think that you should change anything on this website. It's name is Climate-DEBATE.com and if you don't stay in-line with what the website's name says, then you're only going to have ongoing and unstoppable controversy plaguing this site.

People DO need places to debate climate change. Let this remain one of those places.

If you're interested in a place to discuss climate change, then we should talk about that, perhaps before you send out your newsletter.

I'll email you.

Thanks again for creating this marvelous website.



* - normally I would not respond to branner publicly, but I felt it was important to do so as he directly, and respectfully, addressed my original post here in a way that I felt deserved a public reply.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
24-10-2015 19:23
Ceist
★★★☆☆
(592)
Having different views, debating those views and presenting valid evidence to support ones views can be enjoyable - and often educational. Having a forum overrun by an abusive sociopathic troll, is not.

Science confirms that internet trolls really are narcissistic, psychopathic and sadistic and will lie, exaggerate, manipulate and offend to get a response.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-online-secrets/201409/internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/climate_desk/2014/02/internet_troll_personality_study_machiavellianism_narcissism_psychopathy.html

http://jcmooreonline.com/2015/04/05/the-psychology-of-internet-trolls/



Edited on 24-10-2015 19:25
24-10-2015 19:36
Tim the plumber
★★★★☆
(1295)
branner wrote:

As I mentioned in the other thread, I'm looking for a moderator or two, who can take action based on some guidelines that still need to be written. I would like to get your opinion on that.


Can I request that any sanctions be done in a public way, having it's own thread or section maybe where such decisions can be challenged. And commented upon by others.
24-10-2015 21:40
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
Tim the plumber wrote:Can I request that any sanctions be done in a public way, having it's own thread or section maybe where such decisions can be challenged. And commented upon by others.

I second Tim's request.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
24-10-2015 22:34
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9597)
trafn wrote:
So when Into the Night posts his "few rules", or ...

[quotetrafn wrote:
Hi Into the Night,

Wow, that is the most incredible thing I've ever seen posted here, and I think you deserve appropriate praise and applause for it.[/quote]

I find this fascinating. You first applauded the idea, now you quote it as the reason you are leaving. Bizarre.

As I stated in that thread, the reason for the rules was to create discussion, but over data that is verifiable instead of just some composite or fudged stuff that has no actual source. I find that so much time is wasted discussing data that is basically meaningless.

Oh well. I hope you find what you are looking for. Don't think you will though.

Discussion or debate is presenting arguments about your personal viewpoint in an attempt to get others to see your viewpoint. If you call that 'debating to win' you will simply find it anywhere you go. This is a contentious issue. Even if you find a 'discussion' site, it will turn into the same thing. It's the nature of the issue.

If you retreat for these reasons, then be aware about publishing your book. There is nothing but brickbats out there for most authors, regardless of what they write! The kudos you get from writing are there and very welcome, but they are rather minimal. That is true for any writer.

Life is full of contentions. How you deal with them is something you have to figure out for yourself. You can't run away from them. It doesn't work.

Good luck to you.
24-10-2015 22:36
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9597)
IBdaMann wrote:
Tim the plumber wrote:Can I request that any sanctions be done in a public way, having it's own thread or section maybe where such decisions can be challenged. And commented upon by others.

I second Tim's request.


I thought that's what the originator of a thread basically does. Am I misguided?
24-10-2015 23:04
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
Into the Night wrote:
I thought that's what the originator of a thread basically does. Am I misguided?

The topic was "moderators" who typically can ban someone, suspend someone for a certain period of time, delete posts, etc...

The idea is that, say hypothetically I were a moderator, and I were to sanction you for something you posted, that I wouldn't just delete your post and suspend your account in secret, but rather that I would be required to explain my actions clearly in a post in a separate thread, citing your text and citing the rules your violated, along with citations of previous warnings...all in public so that you would have the opportunity to publicly rebut any and all things that were said. This holds moderators accountable and allows the forum owner/administrator the opportunity to review everything and intervene if necessary, *and* it clarifies and publicizes what behavior is acceptable. Such a public thread can be required reading before participating in fora.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
25-10-2015 01:02
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
Hi everyone,

I'm going to make one of my now rare public posts here, as IBdaMann has brought up some very interesting, on topic issues regarding moderators which I feel are worthy of a public reply.

First, I think we should all acknowledge the obvious fact that branner has put a tremendous amount of time, energy, love, and, most likely, his own money into creating and maintaining this website as a free, open forum for everyone to enjoy. As proof, notice that there are no membership fees, there are no advertisements on this website, and you are not being aggressively hit up for donations. That being the case, he has established himself as a benevolent administrator.

I think it is safe to assume that if, and when, he decides to bring on a moderator, that he will do so with the benevolent moderator profile in mind. As a safeguard, branner might only allow limited capabilities to a new moderator at first, to the point that all the new moderator can do is report events of concern to branner. Later, when the new moderator has demonstrated their benevolent capacity, branner might then give them the ability to edit or trash-bin inappropriate posts (edit minor problematic content,* and trash-bin content that is mostly problematic).

As for banning or suspending anyone, that should always be left up to branner only, with a moderator, or anyone else, always able to contact him when the possible need for such action arises.

Given that both branner and any future moderators he chooses will be working from the benevolent perspective, I don't think it's necessary to create a public forum of threads devoted to debating their actions, as those threads would be focused on internet social behavior, and this website is focused upon climate debate.

Remember, a moderator is like a janitor who keeps the website clean and tidy for everyone else, and it's pretty obvious when they're not doing a good job. In the meantime, if you're ever uncertain as to whether or not something you're about to post is appropriate for a particular thread, forum, or this website in general, you can always take the time to contact branner, or future moderators, to get their opinion before you submit that post.

* - to maintain benevolence, when content is edited by a moderator, the person who posted it could be notified and given the chance to submit substitution content which the moderator could then insert on their behalf.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
25-10-2015 01:19
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
trafn wrote: As a safeguard, branner might only allow limited capabilities to a new moderator at first, to the point that all the new moderator can do is report events of concern to branner.


Moderators typically are administrators with the purpose of moderating. Administrators, to be administrators, need to have editing and account rights.

Otherwise, we all could be moderators without being administrators, and just run to branner whenever there is a disagreement.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
25-10-2015 04:11
Ceist
★★★☆☆
(592)
How about some guidelines about flame bait signatures?

Imagine if I were to have a signature that said:

"Bluster, Blather, Bullying and Childish Insults- the preferred tactics of those who reject even the basic science of the 'greenhouse' effect, claim that evidence has no role in science, and cannot support their scientifically illiterate ideologically driven views with science."

at the bottom of every post?


25-10-2015 04:33
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
Ceist wrote:Imagine if I were to have a signature that said:

"Bluster, Blather, Bullying and Childish Insults- the preferred tactics of those who reject even the basic science of the 'greenhouse' effect, claim that evidence has no role in science, and cannot support their scientifically illiterate ideologically driven views with science."

at the bottom of every post?

Rather than merely imagine it, let's give it a test tun. Try it out and see.

No one's religion is required to be respected, nor is scientific illiteracy.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
25-10-2015 05:22
Ceist
★★★☆☆
(592)
Ceist wrote:
How about some guidelines about flame bait signatures?

Imagine if I were to have a signature that said:

"Bluster, Blather, Bullying and Childish Insults- the preferred tactics of those who reject even the basic science of the 'greenhouse' effect, claim that evidence has no role in science, and cannot support their scientifically illiterate ideologically driven views with science."

at the bottom of every post?


It's childish and deliberately antagonistic, which is why sociopathic trolls who can't discuss anything in a rational way and only want to throw childish insults around and antagonise everyone, use the signature function that way.



Edited on 25-10-2015 05:26
25-10-2015 05:32
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
Ceist wrote: It's childish and deliberately antagonistic,

You say that about any sentence that does not grovel at the altar of Global Warming stupidity. You're offended merely by your religion being recognized as a religion (you think it's science, and you cannot discern between the two).

Stop trying to impose your religion onto others. That's what's childish and antagonistic.

Ceist wrote: which is why trolls who just want to throw insults around and antagonise everyone, use the signature function that way.

The devoutly religious hijack the term "troll" and try to redefine it to mean "someone who says things that offend my religious sensibilities."

Ditch your religion and you won't be religiously offended by science.

Learn some science and you'll likely ditch your religion.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
25-10-2015 12:33
Tim the plumber
★★★★☆
(1295)
Into the Night wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Tim the plumber wrote:Can I request that any sanctions be done in a public way, having it's own thread or section maybe where such decisions can be challenged. And commented upon by others.

I second Tim's request.


I thought that's what the originator of a thread basically does. Am I misguided?


My experience of other forums is that answering back to the moderators is taken as Heresy! Or maybe Blasphemy!!!

I think we all need the input of others to see when we over step the mark. That, in my opinion, is also true of moderators who will also benefit from the moderating effect of other people's views.

That is why I think sanctions and discussion of them should be done publically. Just like all the rest of the forum.
26-10-2015 00:28
branner
AdministratorProfile picture☆☆☆☆☆
(33)
Two things:
1. I have written some very basic guidelines for the forum. As said, I hope that I can find a moderator or two as the forum matures. These guidelines will then be the basis for such moderators. The personal views of the moderator are not important, what's important is that he/she acts upon the guidelines, and can devote time and energy to the project. If the moderator acts outside the guidelines, I can just remove moderator rights.

2. Together with trafn, I have decided to create a special sub forum for more friendly discussions, called Sharing Ideas. This is an experimental area of the site that is not for fierce debates, but for trying out new ideas. trafn will moderate this very special area of the site, and he will not have moderator rights for any other areas of the site. Have a look at the list of sub forums here.

I hope this can be the beginning of many interesting new threads on Climate-Debate.com.
26-10-2015 01:31
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
I want to thank branner for both creating this website and allowing me to moderate this unique sub-forum called Shared Ideas which I would describe this way:

Sharing Ideas is unique among all the other sub-forums on this website, as it is currently the only one dedicated to creating a non-debate, non-judgmental, supportive, respectful and synergistic environment where people can share and explore new ideas about climate, climate change, and climate change science, together.

As he stated, I will only be moderating this one sub-forum on Climate-debate.com, so if anyone has any questions about Sharing Ideas' unique format, please PM me.

I look forward to sharing ideas with you.



The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
26-10-2015 11:03
Tim the plumber
★★★★☆
(1295)
trafn wrote:
I want to thank branner for both creating this website and allowing me to moderate this unique sub-forum called Shared Ideas which I would describe this way:

Sharing Ideas is unique among all the other sub-forums on this website, as it is currently the only one dedicated to creating a non-debate, non-judgmental, supportive, respectful and synergistic environment where people can share and explore new ideas about climate, climate change, and climate change science, together.

As he stated, I will only be moderating this one sub-forum on Climate-debate.com, so if anyone has any questions about Sharing Ideas' unique format, please PM me.

I look forward to sharing ideas with you.


If it's shared ideas then people will comment upon each other's ideas. This will mean that ideas you don't like you will comment upon negatively. This will upset some.

I propose a better sub-forum title would be ecco chamber.
26-10-2015 19:18
Tim the plumber
★★★★☆
(1295)
Echo chamber.

Sorry that's dyslexia for you...
27-10-2015 19:35
Surface Detail
★★★★☆
(1673)
trafn wrote:
I want to thank branner for both creating this website and allowing me to moderate this unique sub-forum called Shared Ideas which I would describe this way:

Sharing Ideas is unique among all the other sub-forums on this website, as it is currently the only one dedicated to creating a non-debate, non-judgmental, supportive, respectful and synergistic environment where people can share and explore new ideas about climate, climate change, and climate change science, together.

As he stated, I will only be moderating this one sub-forum on Climate-debate.com, so if anyone has any questions about Sharing Ideas' unique format, please PM me.

I look forward to sharing ideas with you.

Most forums move troll posts to their own sub-forum so that rational discussion can continue on the main parts of the forum. I'm not sure that the opposite approach - moving rational discussion to a sub-forum and leaving the trolls to rampage about the main forums - is such a brilliant idea.
27-10-2015 21:00
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
Surface Detail wrote:Most forums move troll posts to their own sub-forum so that rational discussion can continue on the main parts of the forum.

Many would just outright ban you for never contributing anything of value. This site actually rewards you by giving you your own little corner just for you.

Why are you posting out here in the adult area anyway?

Surface Detail wrote: I'm not sure that the opposite approach - moving rational discussion to a sub-forum and leaving the trolls to rampage about the main forums - is such a brilliant idea.

Just think of your special forum as the main site.

You won't be happy until there are simply no dissenting opinions anywhere on this site.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
27-10-2015 21:13
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9597)
IBdaMann wrote:
Surface Detail wrote:Most forums move troll posts to their own sub-forum so that rational discussion can continue on the main parts of the forum.

Many would just outright ban you for never contributing anything of value. This site actually rewards you by giving you your own little corner just for you.

Why are you posting out here in the adult area anyway?

Surface Detail wrote: I'm not sure that the opposite approach - moving rational discussion to a sub-forum and leaving the trolls to rampage about the main forums - is such a brilliant idea.

Just think of your special forum as the main site.

You won't be happy until there are simply no dissenting opinions anywhere on this site.


I've noticed the Kiddie Pool has been rather quiet since it was built.
27-10-2015 22:13
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
Into the Night wrote:I've noticed the Kiddie Pool has been rather quiet since it was built.

It's not deep enough for science.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
28-10-2015 11:30
Tim the plumber
★★★★☆
(1295)
Into the Night wrote:I've noticed the Kiddie Pool has been rather quiet since it was built.


There is a topic there about over population.

If a thread about killing loads of humans is not instantly trolling what the hell is?

There is no over population problem at all. The more humans the more ability to grow food we have. Propagating this drivel is just evil.

Check out this set of videos;

https://overpopulationisamyth.com/
28-10-2015 12:21
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9597)
Tim the plumber wrote:
Into the Night wrote:I've noticed the Kiddie Pool has been rather quiet since it was built.


There is a topic there about over population.

If a thread about killing loads of humans is not instantly trolling what the hell is?

There is no over population problem at all. The more humans the more ability to grow food we have. Propagating this drivel is just evil.

Check out this set of videos;

https://overpopulationisamyth.com/


Yeah. I saw that start too. I find that such myopia tends to come from city dwellers that have almost never been to the country. It's source is Leninism and to a certain extent Marxism. The target to be controlled is always the middle class.

They just don't seem to understand the revolt that would happen if they actually tried it here in the U.S.
01-11-2015 00:37
Ceist
★★★☆☆
(592)
Tim the plumber wrote:
Into the Night wrote:I've noticed the Kiddie Pool has been rather quiet since it was built.


There is a topic there about over population.

If a thread about killing loads of humans is not instantly trolling what the hell is?

There is no over population problem at all. The more humans the more ability to grow food we have. Propagating this drivel is just evil.

Check out this set of videos;

https://overpopulationisamyth.com/


Tim, were you aware that the website you are propagating is run by a 'pro-life' religious group which campaigns against contraception and abortion? Their content is not based on published research. It's pseudoscience propaganda.

Spreading anti-contraception religious propaganda (eg lying about the effectiveness of condoms) played a big role in spreading HIV in poverty- stricken countries as well as increasing poverty. They also campaign against vaccinations.



Edited on 01-11-2015 00:43
01-11-2015 01:06
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Tim the plumber - given what Ceist just posted, I wonder, are you pro-life?

If so, does that in any way influence your comments that you make here?


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
01-11-2015 01:36
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9597)
Ceist wrote:
Tim the plumber wrote:
Into the Night wrote:I've noticed the Kiddie Pool has been rather quiet since it was built.


There is a topic there about over population.

If a thread about killing loads of humans is not instantly trolling what the hell is?

There is no over population problem at all. The more humans the more ability to grow food we have. Propagating this drivel is just evil.

Check out this set of videos;

https://overpopulationisamyth.com/


Tim, were you aware that the website you are propagating is run by a 'pro-life' religious group which campaigns against contraception and abortion? Their content is not based on published research. It's pseudoscience propaganda.

Spreading anti-contraception religious propaganda (eg lying about the effectiveness of condoms) played a big role in spreading HIV in poverty- stricken countries as well as increasing poverty. They also campaign against vaccinations.

This is a classic case of poisoning the well, are at the least, bulverism. I have examined the sight and do not find any problem with it's data sources, it's reasoning, or it's conclusions. It doesn't matter who owns the site or anything else they may stand for.

Remember, I am picky about where quoted data comes from. In all cases on this site, the data they use is substantiated, verifiable, sources quoted, methodology explained, etc.
01-11-2015 02:29
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night - you wrote It doesn't matter who owns the site or anything else they may stand for.

In this day of misinformation, spin, and re-framing the issue for political and monetary gain, who owns the site is of key interest.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
01-11-2015 02:29
Ceist
★★★☆☆
(592)
Into the Night wrote:
Ceist wrote:
Tim the plumber wrote:
Into the Night wrote:I've noticed the Kiddie Pool has been rather quiet since it was built.


There is a topic there about over population.

If a thread about killing loads of humans is not instantly trolling what the hell is?

There is no over population problem at all. The more humans the more ability to grow food we have. Propagating this drivel is just evil.

Check out this set of videos;

https://overpopulationisamyth.com/


Tim, were you aware that the website you are propagating is run by a 'pro-life' religious group which campaigns against contraception and abortion? Their content is not based on published research. It's pseudoscience propaganda.

Spreading anti-contraception religious propaganda (eg lying about the effectiveness of condoms) played a big role in spreading HIV in poverty- stricken countries as well as increasing poverty. They also campaign against vaccinations.

This is a classic case of poisoning the well, are at the least, bulverism. I have examined the sight and do not find any problem with it's data sources, it's reasoning, or it's conclusions. It doesn't matter who owns the site or anything else they may stand for.

Remember, I am picky about where quoted data comes from. In all cases on this site, the data they use is substantiated, verifiable, sources quoted, methodology explained, etc.

Even a cursory examination of their claims shows it's not an evidence-based website using valid scientific research. PRI are religiously motivated zealots who disagree with the use of contraception as well as abortion and vaccinations. It's not difficult to find out who they are and what they do.

Considering the fact that you have shown in your posts that you reject basic physics and mainstream science about even the natural 'greenhouse' effect, I question your ability to understand the difference between evidence-based science and evidence-free religious pseudoscience propaganda.

If you want to reference religious websites to support your religious/ideological beliefs that's fine, but don't try to pass it off as an authoritative science source and not expect to get called on it.



Edited on 01-11-2015 02:38
01-11-2015 02:49
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Tim the plumber - about the man who runs PRI:

"Steven Westley Mosher (born May 9, 1948) is an American social scientist, pro-life activist and author who specializes in demography and in Chinese population control. He is the president of the Population Research Institute [PRI], an advocate for human rights in China, and has been instrumental in exposing abuses in China's one-child policy as well as other human rights abuses in population control programs around the world. He denies that the world is overpopulated and believes to the contrary that it needs more people." (source)

Nope, no bias there.


Come on Tim, we need to know. Are you a pro-life advocate, too?


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
01-11-2015 04:17
Ceist
★★★☆☆
(592)
trafn wrote:
@Tim the plumber - about the man who runs PRI:

"Steven Westley Mosher (born May 9, 1948) is an American social scientist, pro-life activist and author who specializes in demography and in Chinese population control. He is the president of the Population Research Institute [PRI], an advocate for human rights in China, and has been instrumental in exposing abuses in China's one-child policy as well as other human rights abuses in population control programs around the world. He denies that the world is overpopulated and believes to the contrary that it needs more people." (source)

Nope, no bias there.


Come on Tim, we need to know. Are you a pro-life advocate, too?

And the founder:

FRONT ROYAL, VA. (Population Research Institute) - Fr. Paul Marx, OSB, Founder and long-time Chairman of Population Research Institute (PRI), was a pioneer in the worldwide pro-life movement. He was a man of God but also a man of action in the mold of St. Paul, his name saint. He understood the dangers posed by abortion, euthanasia, and contraception as well as the organizations that promoted these evils. He foresaw the Demographic Winter that the agents of Population Control have now brought about.

He knew the mortal harm that birth control would cause everywhere, including its effect on the loss of faith of Catholics and on the Catholic Church itself. And he organized a worldwide movement to meet these threats to life and family head on and defeat them.

http://www.catholic.org/news/national/story.php?id=35962


01-11-2015 04:17
Ceist
★★★☆☆
(592)
trafn wrote:
@Tim the plumber - about the man who runs PRI:

"Steven Westley Mosher (born May 9, 1948) is an American social scientist, pro-life activist and author who specializes in demography and in Chinese population control. He is the president of the Population Research Institute [PRI], an advocate for human rights in China, and has been instrumental in exposing abuses in China's one-child policy as well as other human rights abuses in population control programs around the world. He denies that the world is overpopulated and believes to the contrary that it needs more people." (source)

Nope, no bias there.


Come on Tim, we need to know. Are you a pro-life advocate, too?

And the founder of PRI, Fr. Paul Marx, a Catholic priest:

FRONT ROYAL, VA. (Population Research Institute) - Fr. Paul Marx, OSB, Founder and long-time Chairman of Population Research Institute (PRI), was a pioneer in the worldwide pro-life movement. He was a man of God but also a man of action in the mold of St. Paul, his name saint. He understood the dangers posed by abortion, euthanasia, and contraception as well as the organizations that promoted these evils. He foresaw the Demographic Winter that the agents of Population Control have now brought about.

He knew the mortal harm that birth control would cause everywhere, including its effect on the loss of faith of Catholics and on the Catholic Church itself. And he organized a worldwide movement to meet these threats to life and family head on and defeat them.

http://www.catholic.org/news/national/story.php?id=35962



Edited on 01-11-2015 04:19
01-11-2015 04:34
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Ceist - in the name of compromise between PRI and the science community, I wonder if this would help:

The Jesus Condom *

* - for mature audiences only.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
01-11-2015 04:52
Ceist
★★★☆☆
(592)


Watch this educational video for devout Christian girls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfRtkCGE40A

Warning: This may be offensive to religious posters.



Edited on 01-11-2015 04:59
01-11-2015 05:11
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Ceist - "I've empty my bowels, I've layed out the towels, I'm ready for romance!"



I think God's Loophole is God's Poophole!


PS - I love Garfunkel And Oates!

PSS - see you at the bar in Hell. The first round is on me!!!


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!

Edited on 01-11-2015 05:12
01-11-2015 06:57
Ceist
★★★☆☆
(592)
Tim the plumber wrote:

If it's shared ideas then people will comment upon each other's ideas. This will mean that ideas you don't like you will comment upon negatively. This will upset some.

I propose a better sub-forum title would be ecco chamber. [/color]


Speaking of Echo chambers: Have you noticed that the anti-science views you cling to seem to be just an Echo of the views of the anti-science evangelical Cornwall Alliance against Global Warming, and Roy Spencer who is a board member?

Is Roy your messiah against the 'evil scientists' of mainstream science?

http://www.cornwallalliance.org/2009/05/01/evangelical-declaration-on-global-warming/



Edited on 01-11-2015 07:00
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