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Amateur Needs Tony Hiller Help



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12-02-2020 17:52
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13030)
Xadoman wrote:
IBdaMann, I am talking about summer time. If you go in the cellar or some deep cave there is not as hot as at the surface of the earth. I just want to know if the warmer air could heat the colder surface deeper in the ground or is the warmer surface of the earth blocking the radiation from warmer air.
I do not say it causes global warming( it would be heat transfer just like conduction and convection) , I just want to know the theory of radiation.


Underground is not exposed to solar radiance. It is heated by conduction.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
12-02-2020 17:54
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13030)
Xadoman wrote:
Thanks, tmiddles. The explanation from ITN was confusing because the surface of the earth deeper underground is not warmer than air in the middle of the sunny daylight. I understand it now as the radiation from the air is completely reflected from the surface of the earth and can not go deeper underground to heat colder ground beneath it. The surface of the earth which is warmer than the air works as as absolut heat shield that blocks the radiation from the air that could in theory heat colder matter deeper underground via radiation.

Underground is not exposed to radiance from air or the Sun.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
12-02-2020 17:56
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1104)
keepit wrote:
gfm7175/ITN,
The discussion was about entropy and what is a closed or open system.

Yup.

keepit wrote:
You said the earth and its atmosphere is a closed system regarding entropy.

It is. It has clearly defined parameters.

keepit wrote:
It isn't.

It is. It has clearly defined parameters.

keepit wrote:
It isn't closed because the sun pours energy into the earth and its atmosphere.

The sun is irrelevant, as it is outside the parameters of your Earth system. You can't add in the sun and space and act as if you are still discussing the same Earth system. You need to choose one or the other and stick with it.

keepit wrote:
Your personal insults don't help to make your case..

Right, but sometimes one feels like "letting it out" by flavoring their arguments with them. My arguments still stand regardless of whether or not I choose to sprinkle some insults into them for flavor.
Edited on 12-02-2020 18:07
12-02-2020 17:58
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13030)
IBdaMann wrote:
Xadoman wrote: IBdaMann, I am talking about summer time.

You're going to run into tmiddles'-type of problems if you generalize when you should be very specific ... and then claim it's "what we know."

You have to know that the earth's crust is hot, and increases in temperature as you dig deeper.

Xadoman wrote: If you go in the cellar or some deep cave there is not as hot as at the surface of the earth.

You probably shouldn't reference the ground/earth/crust if what you want to express is the principle of fluid dynamics, e.g. convection, "heat rising," etc., within a given structure/building.

Xadoman wrote: I just want to know if the warmer air could heat the colder surface deeper in the ground or is the warmer surface of the earth blocking the radiation from warmer air.

You have it quite backwards. The earth's mantle is, shall we say, very hot. The earth's crust is only "hot" but effectively prevents the mantle from heating the surface and the atmosphere.

Xadoman wrote: I do not say it causes global warming( it would be heat transfer just like conduction and convection) , I just want to know the theory of radiation.

The sun does not provide enough thermal radiation to increase the temperature of the earth's mantle or core, and it is the earth's crust that prevents the earth's mantle and core from heating the earth's surface.


The moral of the story is that the earth's crust is an impressive heat attenuator.


.

He is referring to the temperature about 10 ft underground, which remains cool despite the Sun heating the surface. He is failing to take into account conductive heating, both from the surface and from the mantle.

Of course, he is also considering only daylight, and not nightime, when 10 ft down is warmer than the surface.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
12-02-2020 18:01
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13030)
Xadoman wrote:
You have to know that the earth's crust is hot, and increases in temperature as you dig deeper.


The surface of the earth is hotter than few meters underground during summertime when the sun is shining. In winter of course the surface is colder than underground. I have a well that is at least 7 m deep. The water is nicely cool during summertime.
In the oil shale mines underground it is said the temperature is ca +8 degrees all year around. The air is obviously warmer during summer than that.
My point is that it is a little bit confusing when we say that colder gas can not heat hot surface of the earth. Several meters underground the temperature is colder than air during hot summer day. But as much as I understand the surface of the earth simply blocks radiation from the air and reflects it perfectly.

Air does not heat anything on the surface unless that air is hotter than the surface. Underground is not heated by radiance from anywhere.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
12-02-2020 19:51
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(220)
Into the Night wrote:
Xadoman wrote:
You have to know that the earth's crust is hot, and increases in temperature as you dig deeper.


The surface of the earth is hotter than few meters underground during summertime when the sun is shining. In winter of course the surface is colder than underground. I have a well that is at least 7 m deep. The water is nicely cool during summertime.
In the oil shale mines underground it is said the temperature is ca +8 degrees all year around. The air is obviously warmer during summer than that.
My point is that it is a little bit confusing when we say that colder gas can not heat hot surface of the earth. Several meters underground the temperature is colder than air during hot summer day. But as much as I understand the surface of the earth simply blocks radiation from the air and reflects it perfectly.

Air does not heat anything on the surface unless that air is hotter than the surface. Underground is not heated by radiance from anywhere.


And even if the air could heat the colder surface( for example if you open a trapdoor of the water well and expose its bottom to daylight) then the average temperature of earth would not rise. If the heat source has the same output then no matter what we do here on earth the average temperature would be the same. Therefore I would say that it is a little bit confusing to point out that we can not heat hotter surface with colder gas because global warming belivers will start to nitpicking about some cases where air could heat the surface of the earth.
13-02-2020 00:59
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3324)
Xadoman wrote:
Tmiddles, the upper layer of the surface of the earth is warmer than air so air could not heat it as much as I understand. So it has to reflect the radiation from air.
Not true. First of all "Heat" is not the right word since it described a net gain in thermal energy. Radiance from anywhere will be absorbed by anything regardless of the temperature of the object. Things don't magically become reflective as they heat up. That is pure fiction.

Xadoman wrote:...no matter what we do here on earth the average temperature would be the same....
This logic implies there is a fixed amount of thermal energy. We have a steady flow of thermal energy from the sun, not a fixed amount. Make the Earth more reflective and you'll see the amount of thermal energy present drop. So you should see your premise is wrong.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them
13-02-2020 01:31
keepit
★★★★☆
(1628)
The temp decreases for the fist few tens to maybe a hundred feet as you descend into the earth. After that the temp gradually increases until the center of the earth where it is very hot. That temp is the result of nuclear activity and from the ancient heat of formation of the earth. It is transferred to the surface of the earth by conduction and convection. Of course there are locations where the surface temp is colder than it is tens of feet below the surface.

It's true that in some places the air is warmer than the surface of the earth. In that case the atmosphere is heating a portion of the earth. I suppose that is a small percentage of the earth.
Edited on 13-02-2020 01:44
13-02-2020 03:25
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7314)
keepit wrote: After that the temp gradually increases until the center of the earth where it is very hot. That temp is the result of nuclear activity and from the ancient heat of formation of the earth.

Thermal energy produced by nuclear activity is new, not ancient. What are you babbling about?


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-02-2020 03:32
keepit
★★★★☆
(1628)
IBDM,
I thought my english was clear. The word ancient only applied to the heat of formation of the earth.
13-02-2020 05:11
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7314)
keepit wrote:
IBDM,
I thought my english was clear. The word ancient only applied to the heat of formation of the earth.

What do you mean by "heat"?

Perhaps I should ask what you believe you mean by heat.

From The MANUAL:

Heat: noun
In the Global Warming theology, "heat" means whatever it needs to mean at any given moment. The term is employed by Global Warming believers to shift semantic goalposts as necessary. It's meaning can shift fluidly between "temperature," "increase in temperature," "thermal energy," "flow of thermal energy," "convection," "absorption of electromagnetic radiation," "energy," "friction," "conduction," "infrared," "plasma," "work," "radiance," "power," "radioactivity," "electrical energy" and others as convenient.



.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-02-2020 05:19
keepit
★★★★☆
(1628)
I guess one way to put it would be the transfer of thermal energy" originating from the formation of earth".
I've seen it written "heat of formation". It's so economical. I forgot i was talking someone who's trying to do something.
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