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A slightly different angle



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A slightly different angle18-01-2017 20:19
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
In the short time I've been on/reading this forum, it's been fun reading the back and forth on the subject of GW....although Ms Litebeer may want to lay off the copy and paste.


If I could, I would like to start a discussion from a slightly different view. I would especially like to hear from the left, the libs, the socialists and the communists.

Imagine for a moment you woke up tomorrow morning as supreme leader of planet Earth, with no congress, no parliament, no one standing in your way as you are now the absolute dictator of the world.

What immediate measures will you take to avoid the impending catastrophe?

What long term step will you take?

Do you slow increasing CO2 PPM rate?

Do you think it can be stopped at 400PPM?

Can we reduce CO2 back to 300?

How long will it take?

What sacrifices must be made by households and business alike?

I'm guessing my life will change drastically...how?
18-01-2017 20:40
spot
★★★★☆
(1323)
I think that we are late to stop any bad effects but already renewable energy is showing to be a credible way to make energy.

We are already over 400 ppm so that ship have sailed, it wont go under that in our lifetimes there is no mechanism to make that happen.

I'm trying to think but can't see how being more energy efficient will detrimentally effect my life. Minor inconveniences like the plastic bag tax that some were outraged about but everyone got used to in a week maybe.

What about the bad effects of climate change? rising sea levels, increased food prices and people being forced to move causing tension, that sort of thing, your not concerned by that?
18-01-2017 21:02
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
You've sited rising sea levels and increased food prices.

How does warming effect food prices? Are you talking about more expensive efficient energy to produce that food?

Why would someone be forced to move?

What would you do to immediately cap CO2 at 410PPM? Or is it not possible?
18-01-2017 21:10
spot
★★★★☆
(1323)
GasGuzzler wrote:
You've sited rising sea levels and increased food prices.

How does warming effect food prices? Are you talking about more expensive efficient energy to produce that food?

Why would someone be forced to move?

What would you do to immediately cap CO2 at 410PPM? Or is it not possible?


Cited not sited


How do you think I think it effects food prices?

People have always moved if where they live becomes inhospitable.

I don't know if its possible I don't think so. I think it's more realistic to talk about reducing emissions rather then some arbitrary target.


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
18-01-2017 21:22
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
You said it, not me....What about the bad effects of climate change? rising sea levels, increased food prices....

1 degree Celsius does not constitute inhospitable....in my humble opinion. We're not talking about war, we're talking less than 1 degree in the span of a lifetime even 2 generations.

So if all intentional fossil fuel burning stopped tomorrow across globe, CO2 would continue to rise? At what rate? Why?
18-01-2017 21:33
spot
★★★★☆
(1323)
On food prices It's not really my area of expertise but this link might be helpfull.

I take issue with your assertion that one degree is nothing to worry about. There was only 6 degrees difference when where I sit was under an ice sheet. And it doesn't stop after one life time. there are people alive here who will be alive in 100 years time. We cant help what went before, preventing whatever damage we can now is the smart thing to do.
18-01-2017 22:03
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
Ha Ha funny on the google...you should try it!

I picked the first article that came up and only got to the 3rd paragraph before I read this lie.

"The decline in production in the face of growing demand can drive up prices in markets that may lack the technology to fight environmental hazards to overall production."

Decline? World food production is soaring. I didn't say it was keeping up with demand, just saying this article has an agenda and it's a bit misleading.

I live in one of the corn capitols of the world. Almost every year I hear the farmers saying "we sure could use a little heat to bring this crop to maturity". Expensive food comes from high input costs...farm equip, energy, seed etc., not 1 degree C temp rise. So you see with corn, a little warming would actually decrease food cost by raising yield and supply thereby lowering market price.

I know we can't stop what went before, so what is it that you would do as dictator to prevent future damage?
Edited on 18-01-2017 22:39
19-01-2017 09:29
spot
★★★★☆
(1323)
It seems reasonable to me, Im not an expert and you obviously are not an expert, I live in the UK nobody is starving but farmers have had issues with frost free winters dammaging oat crops, we also are making better wine then ever. Even assuming what you said is true what you seem to have forgotten is that not everyone lives where you live. Some people live in hot regions.
19-01-2017 18:57
Tim the plumber
★★★★☆
(1319)
spot wrote:
It seems reasonable to me, Im not an expert and you obviously are not an expert, I live in the UK nobody is starving but farmers have had issues with frost free winters dammaging oat crops, we also are making better wine then ever. Even assuming what you said is true what you seem to have forgotten is that not everyone lives where you live. Some people live in hot regions.


I am unaware that oats are damaged by not having frost.

Are you aware that warmer climates produce more food?
19-01-2017 19:07
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
spot wrote:
farmers have had issues with frost free winters dammaging oat crops, we also are making better wine then ever.


Damaging, not dammaging.

I don't get it...Ms Litebeer is reporting massive cold pushes south into populated northern regions because of "excess AGW energy". Should be good and cold there in the UK with all that global warming. Cheese with you whine?
19-01-2017 19:07
litesong
★★★★★
(2297)
[b]Tim the plumber wrote: I am unaware that oats are damaged by not having frost.

Winter without snow cover, often damages the next year's crops.
http://www.agriculture.com/crops/wheat/production/snow-c-provide-benefits-to-wheat-crop_145-ar28437
19-01-2017 19:11
spot
★★★★☆
(1323)
Lets be honest there is a lot you don't know Tim. it never stops you weighing in on a subject with your idiotic opinions though.



Notice how much is grown in the tropics? right not a lot. its a temperate crop.

Interesting theory on how increasing temperatures is always good for crops. did you dream that up yourself? I suppose you will be starting a farm on the planet Venus then.


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
19-01-2017 19:11
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
Prolonged snow cover is also bad as it insulates the ground and does not kill off destructive bugs/pests. Not discussed in this biased article.
19-01-2017 19:12
spot
★★★★☆
(1323)
GasGuzzler wrote:
spot wrote:
farmers have had issues with frost free winters dammaging oat crops, we also are making better wine then ever.


Damaging, not dammaging.

I don't get it...Ms Litebeer is reporting massive cold pushes south into populated northern regions because of "excess AGW energy". Should be good and cold there in the UK with all that global warming. Cheese with you whine?


I assure you it is extremely mild for the time of year in the UK.


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
19-01-2017 19:25
litesong
★★★★★
(2297)
"old sick silly sleepy sleazy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner gasguzlr & gazmuflr" gushed: litesong is reporting massive cold pushes south into populated northern regions because of "excess AGW energy". Should be good and cold there in the UK with all that global warming.

THANKS fer yer acknowledgment of AGW energy's ability to drive Arctic cold to the south. What I NEVER SAID, was that AGW energy driving Arctic cold to the south came with gunsights, such that the UK received its cold on schedule to get proper snow cover or get Arctic cold at all during the winter.
It appears that the continuing mistakes of "old sick silly sleepy sleazy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner gasguzlr & gazmuflr", shows that it does NOT have proper gunsights on its computer posts, & instead, shot its mouth off.
Edited on 19-01-2017 19:30
19-01-2017 19:58
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
I guess I'll have to retract that statement about "excess AGW energy" because Sunspot is reporting it's very warm in the UK. I think I've got it now....

Record cold in some places.
Record warmth in some places.
Average temps in some places.
100 year global temp rise .85 C
The earth is on fire and we're all going to die.
19-01-2017 20:11
spot
★★★★☆
(1323)
GasGuzzler wrote:
I guess I'll have to retract that statement about "excess AGW energy" because Sunspot is reporting it's very warm in the UK. I think I've got it now....

Record cold in some places.
Record warmth in some places.
Average temps in some places.
100 year global temp rise .85 C
The earth is on fire and we're all going to die.


Or you could listen to people who know what they are talking about rather then people who lie for a living.


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
19-01-2017 20:22
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
What I find interesting is that my original request was asking what you would do about it as leader of the world.

I always tell my kids, "don't come to me with a problem, come to me with a challenge and a solution".

If this CO2 challenge is a big and bad as you say it is, then it is going to take a hell of a lot more than me and you and a few factories cutting back here and there. So, was is it that you would do to save the future for our generations to come? Why has no one offered a solution? Is there no solution?
19-01-2017 20:49
spot
★★★★☆
(1323)
The original question was what can we do to stop something that has already happened "Do you think it can be stopped at 400PPM"

When we have already surpassed that,
19-01-2017 20:53
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
general Number was 400...haven't checked my PPM meter today.


No, I don't think we can do anything about it. Do you?
19-01-2017 21:58
Tim the plumber
★★★★☆
(1319)
litesong wrote:
Tim the plumber wrote: I am unaware that oats are damaged by not having frost.

[b]Are you aware that warmer climates produce more food?

Winter without snow cover, often damages the next year's crops.
http://www.agriculture.com/crops/wheat/production/snow-c-provide-benefits-to-wheat-crop_145-ar28437


And the bit you did not want to talk about?
19-01-2017 22:01
Tim the plumber
★★★★☆
(1319)
spot wrote:
Lets be honest there is a lot you don't know Tim. it never stops you weighing in on a subject with your idiotic opinions though.



Notice how much is grown in the tropics? right not a lot. its a temperate crop.

Interesting theory on how increasing temperatures is always good for crops. did you dream that up yourself? I suppose you will be starting a farm on the planet Venus then.


As you have found out, oats are indeed a temperate crop.

They are grown all over the temperate latitudes as you have shown.

They are grown where there is not generally a frost.

And in hotter places farmers grow crops that produce more food than oats.
20-01-2017 00:55
litesong
★★★★★
(2297)
"old sick silly sleepy sleazy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner gasguzlr & gazmuflr" gushed: I think I've got it now...

"old sick silly sleepy sleazy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner gasguzlr & gazmuflr" never got science chemistry astronomy physics algebra & pre-calc in an unearned hi skule DEE-plooomaa.
20-01-2017 06:28
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
I have no high school diploma and no real math skills, but I'm going to take a shot at something here, so all you smart people tell where I'm wrong.

Water vapor~96% of total greenhouse gas

CO2~3%of total greenhouse gas

Man made CO2~3.5% of total CO2

I think now I should find out what 3.5% of 3% is, right?

3x.035=.105% What??? That can't be right!!! Man made CO2 is one tenth of one percent of all greenhouse gasses!!!! Shut down the mower bro!!! We're all gonna die!!

Now to be fair, I tried to find Dept of Energy figures so there's no argument, but the DOE seems to not have any information on natural sources of CO2.....you know, like water vapor. Wonder why that is.

Anyway, it's just incredible how one tenth of one percent gets blame on this....but there's no agenda here.


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extinctions

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20-01-2017 10:56
Surface Detail
★★★★☆
(1673)
GasGuzzler wrote:
I have no high school diploma and no real math skills, but I'm going to take a shot at something here, so all you smart people tell where I'm wrong.

Man made CO2~3.5% of total CO2

What makes you think mankind is responsible for just 3.5% of CO2?

CO2 had been quite stable at about 270 +/- 10ppm for the last 10,000 years, but suddenly began to rise rapidly about 150 years ago. It's now over 400 ppm and rising at over 2 ppm per year. Why would nature suddenly start to emit large amounts of CO2 coincidentally with the industrial revolution? That makes no sense at all. Human activity is responsible for the added 130 ppm, that is, about 33% of the CO2 in the atmosphere.

In fact, human activity emits about twice as much CO2 as has been observed accumulating in the atmosphere. The remainder is absorbed by the biosphere, primarily the oceans, but this ability to absorb CO2 is falling as the oceans warm.
20-01-2017 14:24
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
Given your figure 33 percent mankind CO2 contribution, Which I don't believe, that would still only be about 1 percent of total greenhouse gas. May have to swallow the ego and realize we cannot change the climate by driving electric turds.
20-01-2017 14:38
Surface Detail
★★★★☆
(1673)
GasGuzzler wrote:
Given your figure 33 percent mankind CO2 contribution, Which I don't believe, that would still only be about 1 percent of total greenhouse gas. May have to swallow the ego and realize we cannot change the climate by driving electric turds.

Now comes the other part of your misunderstanding.

Yes, most of the greenhouse effect does indeed come from water vapour. However, the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere is very strongly and rapidly dependent on temperature. If you were to dump a load of water vapour into the atmosphere, the excess would be removed almost immediately as rain. This isn't the case with CO2 - you put it there, it stays there.

The upshot of this is that water vapour effectively amplifies warming due to CO2. You add some CO2 to the atmosphere, the atmosphere warms a little so more water evaporates, so it warms even more, etc, until a new equilibrium is reached. It's like power steering in a car. The CO2 is the hand on the wheel; water vapour is the power steering unit.

A scientist would say that, although both are greenhouse gases, CO2 is a forcing whereas water vapour isn't. So it ultimately makes no sense to compare them with one another.
20-01-2017 15:40
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
If I dumped a load of vapor in the atmosphere, why would it immediately rain? It wouldn't without a trigger. Also, where's all this excess vapor coming from without substantial heating? I don't have time right now, but someone please find g/kg values for water vapor at 0C and 1C ? After all we are talking about less than 1 degree rise in 100 years. The increase percentage is miniscule.

Water vapor cannot amplify warming, it slows warming. I thought we were talking about trapped heat, not actual heating.

How does the air warm a little when you add C02? I thought C02 trapped heat. Your words, not mine.

The largest percentage of man made CO2 vs natural that I can find is 5%. What jacked up gov funded study are you looking at? That would put man made CO2 contributions at two tenths of one percent.

Still want to know why the DOE doesn't included water in greenhouse gas charts. (I already know why...Hee hee hee)
20-01-2017 18:46
Surface Detail
★★★★☆
(1673)
GasGuzzler wrote:
The largest percentage of man made CO2 vs natural that I can find is 5%. What jacked up gov funded study are you looking at? That would put man made CO2 contributions at two tenths of one percent.

Let's get this straight first, shall we? You posted this graph yourself:



This shows CO2 rising from 273 ppm in 2200 BC to 280 ppm in 1800, which is a rise of about 0.02 ppm per decade. The CO2 concentration is now about 400 ppm (completely off the scale of this graph), representing a rise of about 5.5 ppm per decade since 1800. Over the last 220 years, CO2 has therefore been rising at a rate some 275 times faster than it did during the previous 4,000 years!

Now, why has the CO2 been rising hundreds of times faster over the past 200 years than it did over the previous 4,000 years? Where has that extra 120 ppm of CO2 come from? It really doesn't take a genius to figure it out, does it?
20-01-2017 19:09
Tim the plumber
★★★★☆
(1319)
GG,

It is reasonable to see that human use of fossil fuels has added up to 120ppm or so to the atmosphere.

The degree to which this has caused warming is debatable.

The data we have since the famous hockey stick came out seems to say that we are below the lowest warming rate predicted by the IPCC and this is whilst we are having an increase in CO2 faster that the highest rate of CO2 increase predicted.

Edited on 20-01-2017 19:09
20-01-2017 19:43
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
I do not argue human additions to CO2 PPM.
I do not argue that CO2 is a greenhouse gas.
I do not argue that greenhouse gas traps heat.
What I don't buy into is that fossil fuel burning accounts for more than 1 percent of total greenhouse gas.

Not one person would know the earth was warming if they hadn't been told it is.

This is a political issue and nothing more. So who do you trust? Great question. I certainly don't trust a guy that flies a private G2 jet and asks me to ride my bicycle to work. Hint...it's the same fella that invented that inter web thing.
20-01-2017 19:54
Surface Detail
★★★★☆
(1673)
GasGuzzler wrote:
I do not argue human additions to CO2 PPM.

Yes you did. You first claimed that humans contributed 3.5% then 5% of the CO2 in the atmosphere. The real amount is about 30%, as I showed.

The first thing you need to do is stop getting false information from whatever conspiracy blog you found those incorrect figures and start reading real science books or websites.
20-01-2017 20:48
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
Let me be clear.

Greenhouse gas
95% water vapor
3.62% CO2
1.38% Other

Mankind contribution to the 3.62% total CO2 is anywhere from 3-6%, depending on what study you believe. I am unable to find a 30% claim that man creates 30% of all atmospheric CO2. So what we are left with is 3-6% of the 3.8% total CO2....equals anywhere from 11 hundredths of a percent to 22 hundredths of a percent. Not much to freak out over.

Funny...when I started this thread I asked what you would do as a supreme leader to fix this issue.

Not a single suggestion from anyone. Why?
20-01-2017 21:47
Surface Detail
★★★★☆
(1673)
GasGuzzler wrote:
Let me be clear.

Greenhouse gas
95% water vapor
3.62% CO2
1.38% Other

Mankind contribution to the 3.62% total CO2 is anywhere from 3-6%, depending on what study you believe. I am unable to find a 30% claim that man creates 30% of all atmospheric CO2. So what we are left with is 3-6% of the 3.8% total CO2....equals anywhere from 11 hundredths of a percent to 22 hundredths of a percent. Not much to freak out over.

Funny...when I started this thread I asked what you would do as a supreme leader to fix this issue.

Not a single suggestion from anyone. Why?

Stop being so obtuse. The concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere hovered around 270 - 280 ppm for thousands of years. Over the last century and a half, it has shot up to 400 ppm, coinciding exactly with the time that humans started pouring large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. It should be quite obvious to anyone but an idiot that human emissions must have contributed the 120 - 130 ppm difference.
20-01-2017 22:01
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
Not arguing contribution. Arguing actual warming effect. Near 0.

There are so damn many factors and variables to weather and climate, it is absolute ignorance to point to one thing and say this is causing our .85C over the last 100 years. It is equally ignorant to think you can do anything about it if it were true. MMmmmm.... and still no suggestions on how man can stop the monster he created. But Trump is president now. I feel a bit better already. I bet you're just miserable.
20-01-2017 22:19
Surface Detail
★★★★☆
(1673)
GasGuzzler wrote:
Not arguing contribution. Arguing actual warming effect. Near 0.

There are so damn many factors and variables to weather and climate, it is absolute ignorance to point to one thing and say this is causing our .85C over the last 100 years. It is equally ignorant to think you can do anything about it if it were true. MMmmmm.... and still no suggestions on how man can stop the monster he created. But Trump is president now. I feel a bit better already. I bet you're just miserable.

The person talking from a point of absolute ignorance is you. Given the difficulty you have even comprehending the simple fact that humans have added some 120 ppm of CO2 to the atmosphere, I doubt very much that you'll be able to grasp why water vapour isn't considered to be a forcing or why scientists are so confident that humans are primarily responsible for recent climate change. I might as well try to explain trigonometry to a chimp.
20-01-2017 22:36
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
120 PPM...no argument...what has it done? Answer.....0.85 degree rise over 100 years...at worst

Scientists are all confident on made made catastrophe? All of them? Not even close. Try being honest.

Explain trig to a chimp? Do you have experience with that? Are you certified?

MMMM......still not one suggestion on how to stop the earth from blowing up. Is there none?
Edited on 20-01-2017 22:37
20-01-2017 22:43
Surface Detail
★★★★☆
(1673)
Are you IBdaMann's replacement?
20-01-2017 22:48
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
No, I don't have the necessary ego to BDaMann. I'm just a simple gas guzzler.
20-01-2017 22:56
Surface Detail
★★★★☆
(1673)
It just seems strange. IBdaMann was by far the most prolific contrarian poster here up until the end of 2016, when he suddenly stopped. His stopping coincided almost exactly with your joining, and now you're here, posting in similar quantity and verbosity. It's almost as though his contract ran out, or something. Do you also have a fixed-length contract?
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