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23-09-2016 20:02
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10270)
jwoodward48 wrote:
Just giving me more proof!


So how do you explain the 33C discrepancy?


1) Can you measure the temperature of the globe? No.
2) Are you talking about just the surface or the whole planet?
3) Albedo changes with every square foot. How are you determining the albedo of the whole planet?


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 23-09-2016 20:03
23-09-2016 20:28
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
I'm pretty sure that the Earth's surface is on average warmer than the Moon's. That's not disputed.
23-09-2016 21:06
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5238)
jwoodward48 wrote: I'm pretty sure that the Earth's surface is on average warmer than the Moon's. That's not disputed.

It's certainly not disputed. Stefan-Boltzmann has answered that question and everyone goes with that.

Oh, the earth and the moon are of the same average temperature. Your being "pretty sure" had no effect on it being correct or not.

Wow, deja-vu! I just got hit by that feeling that you and I have discussed Stefan-Boltzmann before.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
23-09-2016 22:14
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
What is the Earth's average surface temperature? What is the Moon's?
23-09-2016 22:16
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5238)
jwoodward48 wrote:What is the Earth's average surface temperature? What is the Moon's?

No one has been able to compute the earth's to any useful accuracy. The moon would be somewhat close to the Stefan-Boltzmann value.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
23-09-2016 22:24
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
But do you really think that the average surface temperature of Earth is that cool? It doesn't seem like the measurements could off by that much. I mean, that's just preposterous.
23-09-2016 22:42
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5238)
You have confused me.

IBdaMann wrote:No one has been able to compute the earth's [average global surface temperature] to any useful accuracy.


jwoodward48 wrote: But do you really think that the average surface temperature of Earth is that cool?

<confused>

Please elaborate.


IBdaMann wrote: It doesn't seem like the measurements could off by that much. I mean, that's just preposterous.

Please elaborate.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
23-09-2016 22:49
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
I kind of figure that the margins of error for the temperature of Earth must be less than 33C, right?
24-09-2016 00:46
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10270)
jwoodward48 wrote:
I kind of figure that the margins of error for the temperature of Earth must be less than 33C, right?


There are several problems with the 33C idea.

First, the effective temperature coming from S-B is talking about the whole planet, and not the surface, while the 'average' Earth temperature at the surface is 33 deg C higher.

I have already shown why we can't calculate an average that means anything with our current instrumentation. The other problem has to do with the application of the S-B law itself.

This law uses emissivity as one of its constants. This, for the Earth means a total albedo.

Like global temperature, we can't measure the albedo of the Earth either. It is just assumed. Albedo is different for each square foot of the Earth and will change depending on the color of light you are using. Venus, the Moon, and any other planet has the same issue. We really have no idea what the albedo of any particular body has.

This is why effective temperature never matches any real temperatures. It is why using the S-B in this way is incorrect, for it inserts many random elements into the equation to use it this way. The 'effective' temperature is therefore rather a meaningless thing to compare against the actual temperature of a planet or a moon.

So what good is S-B?

Where this equation is most useful is in showing how energy can be related to temperature as temperature changes. Emissivity is just a constant. You can pick what that constant is, but it doesn't change as you draw the graph of response.


The Parrot Killer
24-09-2016 01:01
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
So individual planets/astronomical bodies only have different temperatures because of their different emissivities and albedos?
24-09-2016 02:13
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5238)
jwoodward48 wrote:
So individual planets/astronomical bodies only have different temperatures because of their different emissivities and albedos?

...and differing distances to the energy source.

Stefan-Boltzmann specifies the constant of emissivity and the radiance BOTH.



.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
24-09-2016 02:22
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
Ah, yes, the incoming flux. (Radiance is flux per solid angle, right? Are we assuming that the body considered has a sky half-full? That is, that half of the sky is taken up by the body when you stand on its surface? That would make radiance and flux proportional to each other, right?)
24-09-2016 02:43
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5238)
jwoodward48 wrote:Ah, yes, the incoming flux. (Radiance is flux per solid angle, right?

Radiance, flux, emission, whatever you want to call it, it's just an amount of energy.


jwoodward48 wrote:Are we assuming that the body considered has a sky half-full? That is, that half of the sky is taken up by the body when you stand on its surface? That would make radiance and flux proportional to each other, right?)

No, we are not assuming that. You get to determine. You could have multiple energy sources from multiple angles.

You add up the energy absorbed (area of incidence multiplied by emissivity) and all that amount of energy must radiate away.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
24-09-2016 03:46
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
Which law is that again?
24-09-2016 03:53
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5238)
jwoodward48 wrote:Which law is that again?

Your favorite and mine.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
24-09-2016 04:00
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
Is it SB?
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