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10 ppm O3 in stratosphere convert 98% of UV into heat, so what makes people think


10 ppm O3 in stratosphere convert 98% of UV into heat, so what makes people think14-02-2019 23:58
Tai Hai Chen
★★★★☆
(1041)
the first 10 ppm of CO2 in air don't absorb 98% of that band of IR coming off Earth? Why would they think every doubling of CO2 would raise the temperature by the same amount?
15-02-2019 00:16
Into the Night
★★★★★
(8172)
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
the first 10 ppm of CO2 in air don't absorb 98% of that band of IR coming off Earth? Why would they think every doubling of CO2 would raise the temperature by the same amount?


Absorption of UV light does not convert to thermal energy, so it is not heat. UV light absorption causes chemical reactions, such as making O3 out of O2, the tanning (and burning) of human skin, the retinas of various critters that can see into the UV spectrum (insects, some birds, some mammals, and even a few humans).

The O2 to O3 reaction itself is endothermic. It cools the air where it is happening. That is at the tropopause and lower stratosphere, the coldest place in our atmosphere. Below that altitude, UV-B light is too dim (it's been absorbed!) to do much to O2. It will still cause sunburns and have other effects I've described though.

Ozone is also destroyed by UV light, converting it back to O2. This is a higher frequency sub-band of UV light, called UV-C. This destruction of ozone by UV-C absorption prevents any UV-C from reaching the surface. This is an exothermic reaction that tends to occur in the upper stratosphere, which is why there is a temperature inversion in the stratosphere.

UV-C is very dangerous. It will cause blindness and seriously damage human tissue.

UV-A light, the lower frequency sub-band of UV light, causes the tanning reaction in our skin. It is also the prevalent light that insects, birds, etc. see.

IR light emitted from the Earth is in a wide range of frequencies, since Earth has a wide range of temperatures. Some of these frequencies are absorbed by CO2, but that does not warm the Earth. It is simply another way for the surface to cool itself by heating the atmosphere above it.

It is not known how much IR is being absorbed by the CO2 in the atmosphere, since the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is unknown, and the amount of light emitted from the Earth that happens to be in the absorption band is unknown.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 15-02-2019 00:19
15-02-2019 00:18
Tai Hai Chen
★★★★☆
(1041)
Into the Night wrote:
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
the first 10 ppm of CO2 in air don't absorb 98% of that band of IR coming off Earth? Why would they think every doubling of CO2 would raise the temperature by the same amount?


Absorption of UV light does not convert to thermal energy, so it is not heat. UV light absorption causes chemical reactions, such as making O3 out of O2, the tanning (and burning) of human skin, the retinas of various critters that can see into the UV spectrum (insects, some birds, some mammals, and even a few humans).

The O2 to O3 reaction itself is endothermic. It cools the air where it is happening. That is at the tropopause and lower stratosphere, the coldest place in our atmosphere. Below that altitude, UV-B light is too dim (it's been absorbed!) to do much to O2. It will still cause sunburns and have other effects I've described though.

Ozone is also destroyed by UV light, converting it back to O2. This is a higher frequency sub-band of UV light, called UV-C. This destruction of ozone by UV-C absorption prevents any UV-C from reaching the surface. This is an exothermic reaction that tends to occur in the upper stratosphere, which is why there is a temperature inversion in the stratosphere.

UV-C is very dangerous. It will cause blindness and seriously damage human tissue.

UV-A light, the lower frequency sub-band of UV light, causes the tanning reaction in our skin. It is also the prevalent light that insects, birds, etc. see.


Conservation of energy. Incoming UV is converted into heat. That's why stratosphere is much hotter than the top part of troposphere, preventing clouds from rising into stratosphere, therefore preventing Earth's water from escaping into space.
Edited on 15-02-2019 00:18
15-02-2019 00:24
Into the Night
★★★★★
(8172)
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
the first 10 ppm of CO2 in air don't absorb 98% of that band of IR coming off Earth? Why would they think every doubling of CO2 would raise the temperature by the same amount?


Absorption of UV light does not convert to thermal energy, so it is not heat. UV light absorption causes chemical reactions, such as making O3 out of O2, the tanning (and burning) of human skin, the retinas of various critters that can see into the UV spectrum (insects, some birds, some mammals, and even a few humans).

The O2 to O3 reaction itself is endothermic. It cools the air where it is happening. That is at the tropopause and lower stratosphere, the coldest place in our atmosphere. Below that altitude, UV-B light is too dim (it's been absorbed!) to do much to O2. It will still cause sunburns and have other effects I've described though.

Ozone is also destroyed by UV light, converting it back to O2. This is a higher frequency sub-band of UV light, called UV-C. This destruction of ozone by UV-C absorption prevents any UV-C from reaching the surface. This is an exothermic reaction that tends to occur in the upper stratosphere, which is why there is a temperature inversion in the stratosphere.

UV-C is very dangerous. It will cause blindness and seriously damage human tissue.

UV-A light, the lower frequency sub-band of UV light, causes the tanning reaction in our skin. It is also the prevalent light that insects, birds, etc. see.


Conservation of energy. Incoming UV is converted into heat.
You can't convert anything to heat. Heat is not temperature. It is not thermal energy. If light is converted to thermal energy, the light itself is heat. Heat is the movement of thermal energy, even if an electromagnetic medium is used to do it.

UV light does not convert to thermal energy. It converts to chemical energy, and only when it is absorbed. Chemical energy IS energy, and the conservation of energy law is not violated.
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
That's why stratosphere is much hotter than the top part of troposphere,
Not because of conversion to thermal energy. Because of a chemical reaction. UV light absorption does not convert to thermal energy. You should read up on the Chapman cycle.
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
preventing clouds from rising into stratosphere,
Clouds DO rise into the stratosphere. They even form there.
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
therefore preventing Earth's water from escaping into space.

No, gravity does that.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 15-02-2019 00:25
15-02-2019 02:28
Wake
★★★★★
(4026)
Into the Night wrote:
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
the first 10 ppm of CO2 in air don't absorb 98% of that band of IR coming off Earth? Why would they think every doubling of CO2 would raise the temperature by the same amount?


Absorption of UV light does not convert to thermal energy, so it is not heat. UV light absorption causes chemical reactions, such as making O3 out of O2, the tanning (and burning) of human skin, the retinas of various critters that can see into the UV spectrum (insects, some birds, some mammals, and even a few humans).

The O2 to O3 reaction itself is endothermic. It cools the air where it is happening. That is at the tropopause and lower stratosphere, the coldest place in our atmosphere. Below that altitude, UV-B light is too dim (it's been absorbed!) to do much to O2. It will still cause sunburns and have other effects I've described though.

Ozone is also destroyed by UV light, converting it back to O2. This is a higher frequency sub-band of UV light, called UV-C. This destruction of ozone by UV-C absorption prevents any UV-C from reaching the surface. This is an exothermic reaction that tends to occur in the upper stratosphere, which is why there is a temperature inversion in the stratosphere.

UV-C is very dangerous. It will cause blindness and seriously damage human tissue.

UV-A light, the lower frequency sub-band of UV light, causes the tanning reaction in our skin. It is also the prevalent light that insects, birds, etc. see.


Conservation of energy. Incoming UV is converted into heat.
You can't convert anything to heat. Heat is not temperature. It is not thermal energy. If light is converted to thermal energy, the light itself is heat. Heat is the movement of thermal energy, even if an electromagnetic medium is used to do it.

UV light does not convert to thermal energy. It converts to chemical energy, and only when it is absorbed. Chemical energy IS energy, and the conservation of energy law is not violated.
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
That's why stratosphere is much hotter than the top part of troposphere,
Not because of conversion to thermal energy. Because of a chemical reaction. UV light absorption does not convert to thermal energy. You should read up on the Chapman cycle.
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
preventing clouds from rising into stratosphere,
Clouds DO rise into the stratosphere. They even form there.
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
therefore preventing Earth's water from escaping into space.

No, gravity does that.



The first law of thermodynamics which you think you can wield like a hammer states:
"The total energy of an isolated system is constant; energy can be transformed from one form to another."

That means that light, heat and other forms of energy are ALL THE SAME THING.

The Stefan-Boltzmann Law states:
"total radiant heat energy emitted from a surface is proportional to the fourth power of its absolute temperature."

Any thinking person would realize that temperature is the reflection of the total power in the form of heat energy. Or LIGHT.

The conversion of O2 to O3 is endothermic which means:
"Requiring the absorption of heat"

So UV is converted to HEAT

What does the Chapman Cycle have to do with anything? That is merely an explanation of how the conversion of O2 to O3 is self limiting since the same thing that converts O2 to O3 converts O3 to O2.

What's more, the reverse conversion of O3 to O2 is exothermic and releases heat into the atmosphere.

Oh,wait, you declare that you don't believe me. Maybe your alterego can pat you on the back and burp you.
15-02-2019 04:27
Into the Night
★★★★★
(8172)
Wake wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
the first 10 ppm of CO2 in air don't absorb 98% of that band of IR coming off Earth? Why would they think every doubling of CO2 would raise the temperature by the same amount?


Absorption of UV light does not convert to thermal energy, so it is not heat. UV light absorption causes chemical reactions, such as making O3 out of O2, the tanning (and burning) of human skin, the retinas of various critters that can see into the UV spectrum (insects, some birds, some mammals, and even a few humans).

The O2 to O3 reaction itself is endothermic. It cools the air where it is happening. That is at the tropopause and lower stratosphere, the coldest place in our atmosphere. Below that altitude, UV-B light is too dim (it's been absorbed!) to do much to O2. It will still cause sunburns and have other effects I've described though.

Ozone is also destroyed by UV light, converting it back to O2. This is a higher frequency sub-band of UV light, called UV-C. This destruction of ozone by UV-C absorption prevents any UV-C from reaching the surface. This is an exothermic reaction that tends to occur in the upper stratosphere, which is why there is a temperature inversion in the stratosphere.

UV-C is very dangerous. It will cause blindness and seriously damage human tissue.

UV-A light, the lower frequency sub-band of UV light, causes the tanning reaction in our skin. It is also the prevalent light that insects, birds, etc. see.


Conservation of energy. Incoming UV is converted into heat.
You can't convert anything to heat. Heat is not temperature. It is not thermal energy. If light is converted to thermal energy, the light itself is heat. Heat is the movement of thermal energy, even if an electromagnetic medium is used to do it.

UV light does not convert to thermal energy. It converts to chemical energy, and only when it is absorbed. Chemical energy IS energy, and the conservation of energy law is not violated.
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
That's why stratosphere is much hotter than the top part of troposphere,
Not because of conversion to thermal energy. Because of a chemical reaction. UV light absorption does not convert to thermal energy. You should read up on the Chapman cycle.
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
preventing clouds from rising into stratosphere,
Clouds DO rise into the stratosphere. They even form there.
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
therefore preventing Earth's water from escaping into space.

No, gravity does that.



The first law of thermodynamics which you think you can wield like a hammer states:
"The total energy of an isolated system is constant; energy can be transformed from one form to another."

Close enough. Why do you deny this law, Wake?
Wake wrote:
That means that light, heat and other forms of energy are ALL THE SAME THING.

WRONG. Heat is not a form of energy. Electromagnetic energy is not the same as thermal energy, electrical energy, chemical energy, nuclear energy, or any other form of energy. The 1st law of thermodynamics does NOT say they are all the same thing, Wake.
Wake wrote:
The Stefan-Boltzmann Law states:
"total radiant heat energy emitted from a surface is proportional to the fourth power of its absolute temperature."

Close enough, other than missing a couple of important constants. Why do you deny this law, Wake?
Wake wrote:
Any thinking person would realize that temperature is the reflection of the total power in the form of heat energy. Or LIGHT.
Heat is not energy, Wake. Heat has no temperature. Thermal energy is not power, either. Neither is light.
Wake wrote:
The conversion of O2 to O3 is endothermic which means:
"Requiring the absorption of heat"

So UV is converted to HEAT

WRONG. It is converted to chemical energy. The surrounding air provides the heat necessary.
Wake wrote:
What does the Chapman Cycle have to do with anything? That is merely an explanation of how the conversion of O2 to O3 is self limiting since the same thing that converts O2 to O3 converts O3 to O2.

WRONG. UV-B light causes O2 to become O3. UV-C light causes O3 to become O2. They are not the same frequencies of light, Wake.
Wake wrote:
What's more, the reverse conversion of O3 to O2 is exothermic and releases heat into the atmosphere.
This is correct. It is the chemical reaction that is heating the atmosphere, not the UV.
Wake wrote:
Oh,wait, you declare that you don't believe me.
Non-sequitur fallacy.
Wake wrote:
Maybe your alterego can pat you on the back and burp you.

Insult fallacy.


The Parrot Killer
15-02-2019 18:18
Wake
★★★★★
(4026)
There you have it - while tossing terms around like the laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann Law EVEN WITH THE DIRECT QUOTES he disclaims what they actually say. He doesn't even understand the very thing he is telling someone else to "study" - the Chapman Cycle! This person is so far over the hill that there is simply no need to ever say anything to him ever again - that so few people will answer his postings is pretty much indicative what others think of him so I will follow their example.
15-02-2019 19:09
Into the Night
★★★★★
(8172)
Wake wrote:
There you have it - while tossing terms around like the laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann Law EVEN WITH THE DIRECT QUOTES he disclaims what they actually say.

They are not the direct quotes, and I did not disclaim what the quotes you made, Wake, other than to point out a couple of constants you forgot.
Wake wrote:
He doesn't even understand the very thing he is telling someone else to "study" - the Chapman Cycle!

Yes I do, Wake. It is YOU that doesn't understand it. That's probably why you fell into the Church of the Ozone Hole.
Wake wrote:
This person is so far over the hill that there is simply no need to ever say anything to him ever again -
Paradox, Wake. Bulverism fallacy.
Wake wrote:
that so few people will answer his postings is pretty much indicative what others think of him so I will follow their example.

Bulverism fallacy.


The Parrot Killer




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