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Warming acceleration



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09-08-2018 12:39
James___
★★★☆☆
(666)
Into the Night wrote:


Our bodies are constantly consuming food to produce that temperature. It will continue to burn food, even if it doesn't need to produce body heat. This is necessary because the sugars we get from that food power our brain, muscles, heart, etc.

So we always have to get rid of the excess thermal energy.




...itn,
..I'll teach you where you're wrong. The body can warm it's core while the extremities are quite cold. Most of the heat the body generates is the friction of the blood moving through blood vessels and blood veins. Friction just as in our atmosphere excites molecules.
..The body can regulate the flow of blood in different parts of the body. By reducing the flow under the skin then less heat is released outside of the body. And this could help to increase the feeling of warmth because of the parts of the body exposed to the source of heat (our atmosphere).
..Something for you to consider GasGuzzler. The "sensation" of warmth that we feel can come from parts of our body being warmer than they normally would be and that our brain recognizes this change through our CNS (central nervous system). Basically when we are exposed to temperatures below 98.6° F. the blood flow near and in our skin is reduced and as a result we get used to it.
..The heart relies on electrolytes. To get a clue, potatoes are a rich enough source of electrolytes to power a light bulb.
https://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/everyday-innovations/how-to-make-potato-powered-light-bulb.htm
Videos
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=potato+lights+bulb
Edited on 09-08-2018 12:43
09-08-2018 22:04
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5741)
GasGuzzler wrote:
ITN wrote:
Our bodies are constantly consuming food to produce that temperature. It will continue to burn food, even if it doesn't need to produce body heat. This is necessary because the sugars we get from that food power our brain....

So maybe James just needs to eat more?
Kidding!

The food you burn for energy has a name: your metabolism. Eating more doesn't increase your metabolism. It just makes you fat. Your body sees the surplus of fuel available and adds extra tanks automatically!
GasGuzzler wrote:
Thanks for the explanation ITN and I think that all makes perfect sense.

Glad it was clear.
GasGuzzler wrote:
While I'm at it I'd like one more question, COMPLETELY unrelated to climate. I do appreciate the knowledge here.

*humble bow*
GasGuzzler wrote:
I was yacking at a family reunion (wife's side
) with an lifelong appliance repair guy. We were discussing the propane powered refrigerator in the cabin on a fly in fishing trip to Canada. He didn't know how they worked. I didn't either. Got any insight ITN?

By the way, he told me that A/C and Freon work by removing heat. A very interesting conversation ensued.


Sounds like it would! You already understand you can't remove heat. That's like 'removing' river current.

These refrigerators are rather clever devices that make use of a technique first developed by Dr. Faraday while he was playing around with ammonia. He found that when liquid ammonia combines with hydrogen, an endothermic chemical reaction takes place that also has a side effect of bring the ammonia into vapor. This is because combining ammonia with hydrogen forces vaporization, and the heat of vaporization is what cools the gas.

This refrigerator has no compressor, no fixed orifice, and uses more than one cooling medium. They're quiet and can run anywhere propane is available. They do need to be kept level however (which is why you level a trailer or motorhome containing one of these things). These are also called 'absorption' refrigerators.

In a tank, you have three ingredients: ammonia, hydrogen gas, and water. The liquid portions (water and ammonia) are fed into a tube that is heated (by propane in this case). An inner tube from the tank is inside an outer tube. It's built just like a coffee percolator.

As the material is heated, ammonia will flash into vapor before the water does. The result is that ammonia gas comes out the top of the tube, while water percolates out, separating the water from the ammonia. The water drains to the bottom of the outer tube, and up another tube (slightly lower than the top of the percolating tube) that feeds into the middle of what are called 'absorption coils'.

In this way ammonia and water are separated and ammonia gas moves to the top of the device. This is the compression portion of the device.

The ammonia gas then enters the condenser coil. Most of the heated ammonia cools back to more or less room temperature here. Here it becomes a liquid again.

But the chamber is also filled with hydrogen gas rising from below. This again vaporizes the ammonia, and the heat of vaporization makes the ammonia vapor cold. This is the expansion portion of the device. It is this cold ammonia that is sent to the refrigerator box coils, or absorption coils.

As it drops down to the insertion point of the water, the vapor can condense out again and mix with the water. The water becomes more and more saturated with ammonia is it drops and cools, until everything returns to the tank where it started.

The cold section is where the ammonia meets up with the hydrogen gas.

The hot section is what drives the ammonia and water upward, and dries the ammonia so it can react with the hydrogen (by using the 'percolator'). That percolator, BTW, is the gurgling sound you hear when these things are running.

Does this help?


The Parrot Killer
09-08-2018 22:12
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5741)
James___ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:


Our bodies are constantly consuming food to produce that temperature. It will continue to burn food, even if it doesn't need to produce body heat. This is necessary because the sugars we get from that food power our brain, muscles, heart, etc.

So we always have to get rid of the excess thermal energy.




...itn,
..I'll teach you where you're wrong. The body can warm it's core while the extremities are quite cold.
I am referring to core body temperature. I guess it wasn't obvious to you.
James___ wrote:
Most of the heat the body generates is the friction of the blood moving through blood vessels and blood veins.

WRONG. The body generates heat via chemical reactions with food.
James___ wrote:
Friction just as in our atmosphere excites molecules.

WRONG. Friction does not excite anything.
James___ wrote:
..The body can regulate the flow of blood in different parts of the body. By reducing the flow under the skin then less heat is released outside of the body.

True.
James___ wrote:
And this could help to increase the feeling of warmth because of the parts of the body exposed to the source of heat (our atmosphere).

The atmosphere is not a source of heat. It is generally colder than our bodies. You can't make heat flow backwards.
James___ wrote:
..Something for you to consider GasGuzzler. The "sensation" of warmth that we feel can come from parts of our body being warmer than they normally would be and that our brain recognizes this change through our CNS (central nervous system).

Numbness is not warmth. All you are feeling is the cold receptors in your skin shutting down because they are too cold to function well. This is the beginning of the onset of frostbite. Get out of the cold at once!
James___ wrote:
Basically when we are exposed to temperatures below 98.6° F. the blood flow near and in our skin is reduced and as a result we get used to it.

WRONG. Blood flow is INCREASED. Blood is a good medium to move thermal energy from the core of the body to the extremities. That's why wetting your arms and head are so effective on a hot day.
James___ wrote:
..The heart relies on electrolytes. To get a clue, potatoes are a rich enough source of electrolytes to power a light bulb.
https://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/everyday-innovations/how-to-make-potato-powered-light-bulb.htm
Videos
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=potato+lights+bulb

Non-sequitur fallacy.


The Parrot Killer
09-08-2018 22:13
James___
★★★☆☆
(666)
Into the Night wrote:

Sounds like it would! You already understand you can't remove heat. That's like 'removing' river current.



...That's what hydroelectric dams do. How'd you miss that one ? That's why rivers both upstream and down stream are warmer. The current which is the flow of water past any given point is reduced. And slower moving water just like the Gulf Stream becomes warmer.
..Can't you at least cheat and do a quick search first ? Oops, sorry. I forgot you were using logic.
09-08-2018 23:30
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5741)
James___ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:

Sounds like it would! You already understand you can't remove heat. That's like 'removing' river current.



...That's what hydroelectric dams do.
No, they don't.
James___ wrote:
How'd you miss that one ?
I didn't.
James___ wrote:
That's why rivers both upstream and down stream are warmer.
They aren't.
James___ wrote:
The current which is the flow of water past any given point is reduced.
No, it isn't.
James___ wrote:
And slower moving water just like the Gulf Stream becomes warmer.
Slower moving water does not make it warmer.


The Parrot Killer
10-08-2018 00:27
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1046)
Into the Night wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
ITN wrote:
Our bodies are constantly consuming food to produce that temperature. It will continue to burn food, even if it doesn't need to produce body heat. This is necessary because the sugars we get from that food power our brain....

So maybe James just needs to eat more?
Kidding!

The food you burn for energy has a name: your metabolism. Eating more doesn't increase your metabolism. It just makes you fat. Your body sees the surplus of fuel available and adds extra tanks automatically!
GasGuzzler wrote:
Thanks for the explanation ITN and I think that all makes perfect sense.

Glad it was clear.
GasGuzzler wrote:
While I'm at it I'd like one more question, COMPLETELY unrelated to climate. I do appreciate the knowledge here.

*humble bow*
GasGuzzler wrote:
I was yacking at a family reunion (wife's side
) with an lifelong appliance repair guy. We were discussing the propane powered refrigerator in the cabin on a fly in fishing trip to Canada. He didn't know how they worked. I didn't either. Got any insight ITN?

By the way, he told me that A/C and Freon work by removing heat. A very interesting conversation ensued.


Sounds like it would! You already understand you can't remove heat. That's like 'removing' river current.

These refrigerators are rather clever devices that make use of a technique first developed by Dr. Faraday while he was playing around with ammonia. He found that when liquid ammonia combines with hydrogen, an endothermic chemical reaction takes place that also has a side effect of bring the ammonia into vapor. This is because combining ammonia with hydrogen forces vaporization, and the heat of vaporization is what cools the gas.

This refrigerator has no compressor, no fixed orifice, and uses more than one cooling medium. They're quiet and can run anywhere propane is available. They do need to be kept level however (which is why you level a trailer or motorhome containing one of these things). These are also called 'absorption' refrigerators.

In a tank, you have three ingredients: ammonia, hydrogen gas, and water. The liquid portions (water and ammonia) are fed into a tube that is heated (by propane in this case). An inner tube from the tank is inside an outer tube. It's built just like a coffee percolator.

As the material is heated, ammonia will flash into vapor before the water does. The result is that ammonia gas comes out the top of the tube, while water percolates out, separating the water from the ammonia. The water drains to the bottom of the outer tube, and up another tube (slightly lower than the top of the percolating tube) that feeds into the middle of what are called 'absorption coils'.

In this way ammonia and water are separated and ammonia gas moves to the top of the device. This is the compression portion of the device.

The ammonia gas then enters the condenser coil. Most of the heated ammonia cools back to more or less room temperature here. Here it becomes a liquid again.

But the chamber is also filled with hydrogen gas rising from below. This again vaporizes the ammonia, and the heat of vaporization makes the ammonia vapor cold. This is the expansion portion of the device. It is this cold ammonia that is sent to the refrigerator box coils, or absorption coils.

As it drops down to the insertion point of the water, the vapor can condense out again and mix with the water. The water becomes more and more saturated with ammonia is it drops and cools, until everything returns to the tank where it started.

The cold section is where the ammonia meets up with the hydrogen gas.

The hot section is what drives the ammonia and water upward, and dries the ammonia so it can react with the hydrogen (by using the 'percolator'). That percolator, BTW, is the gurgling sound you hear when these things are running.

Does this help?


Yeah, helps a lot. Think I got enough stuff in the garage. I'm gonna go build one now.
Vaporized ammonia, I'd have never guessed that! Seriously, that's pretty "cool" stuff. Thanks!

Yeah, the appliance guy didn't much like me telling him you can't remove heat. It's amazing how often...it's everywhere...the misuse of the word heat.
10-08-2018 13:53
James___
★★★☆☆
(666)
..This is what itn knows,
.
Into the Night wrote:

No, they don't.
I didn't.
They aren't.

James___ wrote:
The current which is the flow of water past any given point is reduced.
Into the Night wrote:
No, it isn't.


..The last quote he changed the context. It should have read;


James___ wrote:
The current which is the flow of water past a hydroelectric dam is reduced.
Into the Night wrote:
No, it isn't.


..What his logic missed is that a river's current is how fast it's moving. But can't discuss anything with him because he uses monosyllabic words for answers. Sometimes he even uses 2 syllables like when he says "isn't".
10-08-2018 14:01
James___
★★★☆☆
(666)
Into the Night wrote:



In this way ammonia and water are separated and ammonia gas moves to the top of the device. This is the compression portion of the device.


Does this help?


..What compresses the ammonia when it moves to the top of the device and what "pray tell" is the "device" ?
10-08-2018 16:25
James___
★★★☆☆
(666)
itn and GasGuzzler,
..Since heat is not removed how is the refrigerator cooled ? The laws of thermodynamics allows for heat being moved or removed. Can either of you explain why that is wrong as you both claim ?


..@Everyone else,
..I'll explain in a day or 2. I want to give itn and GasGuzzler a chance to explain their position.
Edited on 10-08-2018 16:27
10-08-2018 17:31
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1046)
James___ wrote:
itn and GasGuzzler,
..Since heat is not removed how is the refrigerator cooled ? The laws of thermodynamics allows for heat being moved or removed. Can either of you explain why that is wrong as you both claim ?


..@Everyone else,
..I'll explain in a day or 2. I want to give itn and GasGuzzler a chance to explain their position.


I am on my phone and should be working, so I'll keep this short. ITN will be much clearer anyway.

Heat is the flow of thermal energy. You cannot remove the flow. Heat flows from hot to cold... always. Fridge is warm, freon cold. Fridge warmth is flowing to the cold freon trying to achieve equalibrium. It is removing warmth, not heat.
10-08-2018 17:48
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5741)
GasGuzzler wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
ITN wrote:
Our bodies are constantly consuming food to produce that temperature. It will continue to burn food, even if it doesn't need to produce body heat. This is necessary because the sugars we get from that food power our brain....

So maybe James just needs to eat more?
Kidding!

The food you burn for energy has a name: your metabolism. Eating more doesn't increase your metabolism. It just makes you fat. Your body sees the surplus of fuel available and adds extra tanks automatically!
GasGuzzler wrote:
Thanks for the explanation ITN and I think that all makes perfect sense.

Glad it was clear.
GasGuzzler wrote:
While I'm at it I'd like one more question, COMPLETELY unrelated to climate. I do appreciate the knowledge here.

*humble bow*
GasGuzzler wrote:
I was yacking at a family reunion (wife's side
) with an lifelong appliance repair guy. We were discussing the propane powered refrigerator in the cabin on a fly in fishing trip to Canada. He didn't know how they worked. I didn't either. Got any insight ITN?

By the way, he told me that A/C and Freon work by removing heat. A very interesting conversation ensued.


Sounds like it would! You already understand you can't remove heat. That's like 'removing' river current.

These refrigerators are rather clever devices that make use of a technique first developed by Dr. Faraday while he was playing around with ammonia. He found that when liquid ammonia combines with hydrogen, an endothermic chemical reaction takes place that also has a side effect of bring the ammonia into vapor. This is because combining ammonia with hydrogen forces vaporization, and the heat of vaporization is what cools the gas.

This refrigerator has no compressor, no fixed orifice, and uses more than one cooling medium. They're quiet and can run anywhere propane is available. They do need to be kept level however (which is why you level a trailer or motorhome containing one of these things). These are also called 'absorption' refrigerators.

In a tank, you have three ingredients: ammonia, hydrogen gas, and water. The liquid portions (water and ammonia) are fed into a tube that is heated (by propane in this case). An inner tube from the tank is inside an outer tube. It's built just like a coffee percolator.

As the material is heated, ammonia will flash into vapor before the water does. The result is that ammonia gas comes out the top of the tube, while water percolates out, separating the water from the ammonia. The water drains to the bottom of the outer tube, and up another tube (slightly lower than the top of the percolating tube) that feeds into the middle of what are called 'absorption coils'.

In this way ammonia and water are separated and ammonia gas moves to the top of the device. This is the compression portion of the device.

The ammonia gas then enters the condenser coil. Most of the heated ammonia cools back to more or less room temperature here. Here it becomes a liquid again.

But the chamber is also filled with hydrogen gas rising from below. This again vaporizes the ammonia, and the heat of vaporization makes the ammonia vapor cold. This is the expansion portion of the device. It is this cold ammonia that is sent to the refrigerator box coils, or absorption coils.

As it drops down to the insertion point of the water, the vapor can condense out again and mix with the water. The water becomes more and more saturated with ammonia is it drops and cools, until everything returns to the tank where it started.

The cold section is where the ammonia meets up with the hydrogen gas.

The hot section is what drives the ammonia and water upward, and dries the ammonia so it can react with the hydrogen (by using the 'percolator'). That percolator, BTW, is the gurgling sound you hear when these things are running.

Does this help?


Yeah, helps a lot. Think I got enough stuff in the garage. I'm gonna go build one now.
Vaporized ammonia, I'd have never guessed that! Seriously, that's pretty "cool" stuff. Thanks!

Yeah, the appliance guy didn't much like me telling him you can't remove heat. It's amazing how often...it's everywhere...the misuse of the word heat.


That's because of the wonderful hi skool edjukation in this country.


The Parrot Killer
10-08-2018 17:49
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5741)
James___ wrote:
..This is what itn knows,
.
Into the Night wrote:

No, they don't.
I didn't.
They aren't.

James___ wrote:
The current which is the flow of water past any given point is reduced.
Into the Night wrote:
No, it isn't.


..The last quote he changed the context. It should have read;


James___ wrote:
The current which is the flow of water past a hydroelectric dam is reduced.
Into the Night wrote:
No, it isn't.


..What his logic missed is that a river's current is how fast it's moving. But can't discuss anything with him because he uses monosyllabic words for answers. Sometimes he even uses 2 syllables like when he says "isn't".

You really should eventually learn the difference between 'reduce' and 'remove'.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 10-08-2018 17:56
10-08-2018 17:50
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5741)
James___ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:



In this way ammonia and water are separated and ammonia gas moves to the top of the device. This is the compression portion of the device.


Does this help?


..What compresses the ammonia when it moves to the top of the device and what "pray tell" is the "device" ?


Go read it again.


The Parrot Killer
10-08-2018 17:54
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5741)
James___ wrote:
itn and GasGuzzler,
..Since heat is not removed how is the refrigerator cooled ?

Heat is not being removed. A refrigerator...any refrigerator works by using heat. They can best be described as a heat conveyance system.
James___ wrote:
The laws of thermodynamics allows for heat being moved or removed.

WRONG. Heat doesn't move. You cannot remove heat. Heat is the flow of thermal energy.
James___ wrote:
Can either of you explain why that is wrong as you both claim ?

You apparently don't understand what 'current', 'reduce', 'remove', and 'heat' mean.
James___ wrote:
..@Everyone else,
..I'll explain in a day or 2. I want to give itn and GasGuzzler a chance to explain their position.

Sure dude...sure.


The Parrot Killer
10-08-2018 17:56
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5741)
GasGuzzler wrote:
James___ wrote:
itn and GasGuzzler,
..Since heat is not removed how is the refrigerator cooled ? The laws of thermodynamics allows for heat being moved or removed. Can either of you explain why that is wrong as you both claim ?


..@Everyone else,
..I'll explain in a day or 2. I want to give itn and GasGuzzler a chance to explain their position.


I am on my phone and should be working, so I'll keep this short. ITN will be much clearer anyway.

Heat is the flow of thermal energy. You cannot remove the flow. Heat flows from hot to cold... always. Fridge is warm, freon cold. Fridge warmth is flowing to the cold freon trying to achieve equalibrium. It is removing warmth, not heat.
More like moving warmth, not heat. Ya gotta put it somewhere!

That's what those condenser coils on the back of the 'fridge are for.


The Parrot Killer
10-08-2018 18:23
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1046)
Into the Night wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
James___ wrote:
itn and GasGuzzler,
..Since heat is not removed how is the refrigerator cooled ? The laws of thermodynamics allows for heat being moved or removed. Can either of you explain why that is wrong as you both claim ?


..@Everyone else,
..I'll explain in a day or 2. I want to give itn and GasGuzzler a chance to explain their position.


I am on my phone and should be working, so I'll keep this short. ITN will be much clearer anyway.

Heat is the flow of thermal energy. You cannot remove the flow. Heat flows from hot to cold... always. Fridge is warm, freon cold. Fridge warmth is flowing to the cold freon trying to achieve equalibrium. It is removing warmth, not heat.
More like moving warmth, not heat. Ya gotta put it somewhere!

That's what those condenser coils on the back of the 'fridge are for.


Yeah, like I said on my phone, forgot reading glasses today and work is piling up!

I figured he knows how a compressed freon cooling system works and he was simply misusing the word "heat". Now I'm starting to wonder about all that!
10-08-2018 19:16
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1046)
Awe shit, I ain't getting done with work today! Now I've got more questions.

With the poor air flow in the back of a fridge, and air being a poor coupling, why does a fridge not need a fan on the condenser coils? I would think that would increase efficiency significantly.

I have worked on window unit air conditioners that actually use a condenser coil fan that picks up water from the evaporator coil drain pan and splashes the water on the condenser coils to increase efficiency.

How can I fridge / freezer work so well without a fan and barely any air flow?
Edited on 10-08-2018 19:17
10-08-2018 19:25
James___
★★★☆☆
(666)
James___ wrote:
The laws of thermodynamics allows for heat being moved or removed.

[b]Into the Night wrote:[/b
WRONG. Heat doesn't move. You cannot remove heat. Heat is the flow of thermal energy.



...@All,
.This is where the disinformation that GasGuzzler and itn are spreading comes into play. The refrigerator is a "bound" system. When heat is removed from that system it becomes heat in our atmosphere. The insulation that a refrigerator uses helps it to become it's own system.

..And as I mentioned, I'll explain in a day or 2 how a propane refrigerant system removes heat. This has to do with "how" something removes heat from one system and moves it to a different (our atmosphere) system.

..And simply put everyone, if heat can't be moved then a refrigerator can't be cooled. Simple logic in it's proper context.
10-08-2018 19:35
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1046)
James, not a huge fan of Wikipedia, but I believe they have this pretty close to correct.. I don't like how it's worded, but it is basically correct.

In thermodynamics, heat means energy which is moved between two things when one of them is hotter than the other. Adding heat to something increases its temperature, but heat is not the same as temperature. The temperature of an object is a measure of the average speed of the moving particles in it..

You disagree with this?
10-08-2018 19:48
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1046)
James wrote:
The refrigerator is a "bound" system. When heat is removed from that system it becomes heat in our atmosphere.

James! Where did the warmth (not heat)come from in the first place? Possibly our atmosphere? Which was heated by the ground... Which was heated by the Sun. Is this the "waste heat" you always speak of? There's just no such thing!
10-08-2018 20:55
James___
★★★☆☆
(666)
GasGuzzler wrote:
James wrote:
The refrigerator is a "bound" system. When heat is removed from that system it becomes heat in our atmosphere.

James! Where did the warmth (not heat)come from in the first place? Possibly our atmosphere? Which was heated by the ground... Which was heated by the Sun. Is this the "waste heat" you always speak of? There's just no such thing!



...Are you really that stupid GasGuzzler ? You're convincing me.
..And why is the refrigerator cooler than the atmosphere if heat isn't moved. And warmth is heat. I see you've learned well from itn on how to create a circular argument by using the conclusion as a predicate.
10-08-2018 21:03
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1046)
James___ wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
James wrote:
The refrigerator is a "bound" system. When heat is removed from that system it becomes heat in our atmosphere.

James! Where did the warmth (not heat)come from in the first place? Possibly our atmosphere? Which was heated by the ground... Which was heated by the Sun. Is this the "waste heat" you always speak of? There's just no such thing!



...Are you really that stupid GasGuzzler ? And warmth is heat.

Nope and nope. Warmth is a result of heat.
10-08-2018 21:32
James___
★★★☆☆
(666)
GasGuzzler wrote:

Nope and nope. Warmth is a result of heat.[/quote]

..LMAO!!!!!!!!
10-08-2018 22:41
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1046)
James___ wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:

Nope and nope. Warmth is a result of heat.


..LMAO!!!!!!!!

Laugh all you want James, I've never been more sure of anything in my life!

Imagine this.....
Take a Rubik's Cube size block of steel and chill it to 49 degrees Fahrenheit below zero. Place it in a large Machine Shed that has been chilled to 50 degrees Fahrenheit below zero. Guess what? There will be heat! The block with transfer energy until equalibrium has been reached. The the air in the machine shed has been heated, but the temp did not measurably rise Everything is still freezing cold, but heat still happened.

You continue to associate heat with hot, and that is where you are incorrect. He can make something hot, but hot is a relative term, and heat is not. Heat just is and always does the same thing.

Heat is the movement or transfer thermal energy and always hot to cold....or cold to colder if you prefer.
Edited on 10-08-2018 22:44
11-08-2018 00:18
James___
★★★☆☆
(666)
GasGuzzler wrote:
James___ wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:

Nope and nope. Warmth is a result of heat.


..LMAO!!!!!!!!

Laugh all you want James, I've never been more sure of anything in my life!

Imagine this.....
Take a Rubik's Cube size block of steel and chill it to 49 degrees Fahrenheit below zero. Place it in a large Machine Shed that has been chilled to 50 degrees Fahrenheit below zero. Guess what? There will be heat! The block with transfer energy until equalibrium has been reached. The the air in the machine shed has been heated, but the temp did not measurably rise Everything is still freezing cold, but heat still happened.

You continue to associate heat with hot, and that is where you are incorrect. He can make something hot, but hot is a relative term, and heat is not. Heat just is and always does the same thing.

Heat is the movement or transfer thermal energy and always hot to cold....or cold to colder if you prefer.



...Show where I said >> You continue to associate heat with hot <<
I've always maintained what Boltzmann said and that's
KE = 1/2mv^2 = 3/2kT

..It's sad GasGuzzler when you make up things. I guess when all else fails.
11-08-2018 00:55
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1046)
I made up nothing. It was you who said warmth and heat are the same thing. Here it is....
James wrote:
Are you really that stupid GasGuzzler? And warmth is heat.
11-08-2018 01:15
James___
★★★☆☆
(666)
GasGuzzler wrote:
I made up nothing. It was you who said warmth and heat are the same thing. Here it is....
James wrote:
Are you really that stupid GasGuzzler? And warmth is heat.



...Let's see, same thing to me because KE = 3/2kT describes both of them the same way. Explain how ammonia is compressed in a propane refrigerator. Neither you nor itn have done that yet. I'm still waiting.

..You know what's funny GasGuzzler, you're only coming after me because I took the time to learn something. What people like you and itn miss is that we can improve what we're doing and possibly create more jobs at the same time. One constant I have been told in the U.S. (I'm an American) is that the U.S. is a capitalist country and that's all anyone needs to know. The environment and the quality of life in the U.S. doesn't matter because being an American means that all people should care about is making money.
..And I think this will create problems because the National Debt already exceeds the GNP. That means in the near future (another decade?) that austerity measures will be necessary. But Americans don't care about something like that because then they'd have to consider getting by with less and that's not what America is about.


..@All,
I thought I'd add this;
..KE = 1/2mv^2 = 3/2k300n - 3/2k5n = 3/2k295 and 3/2k5n. 3/2k5n is the heat given off or removed. itn and GasGuzzler maintain that heat can not be either moved or removed. In making such a statement they are saying that the refrigerator in question is a part of the system which is our atmosphere. Refrigerators are insulated to reduce the ability of heat to be transferred from the atmosphere to the inside of the refrigerator. So what point are they trying to make when they are looking at is not possible to be cooled. I think any engineer would say that heat can be removed from a refrigerator because of how long it can stay cool because of it's insulation.
Edited on 11-08-2018 02:01
11-08-2018 02:54
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1046)
James wrote:
itn and GasGuzzler maintain that heat can not be either moved or removed.


Heat IS movement.

If heat is absent from a cooling system, it is not cooling. It is at equilibrium.

Warmth can be moved. That's how a house A/C works, for example. It moves warmth from inside to the house to outside.

Now I'm really going to fry your brain...
Warmth can be removed...by heat


Also....heat will happen regardless of insulation.
Edited on 11-08-2018 02:58
11-08-2018 04:56
James___
★★★☆☆
(666)
GasGuzzler wrote:
James wrote:
itn and GasGuzzler maintain that heat can not be either moved or removed.


Heat IS movement.

If heat is absent from a cooling system, it is not cooling. It is at equilibrium.

Warmth can be moved. That's how a house A/C works, for example. It moves warmth from inside to the house to outside.

Now I'm really going to fry your brain...
Warmth can be removed...by heat


Also....heat will happen regardless of insulation.


..GasGuzzler,
.The technical definition of heat is KE = 3/2kT * volume

Warmth ;
Definition of warmth
1 : the quality or state of being warm in temperature

..I know warmth can be changed. That is what happens when heat is removed until the sensation of being warm changes to being cool.
11-08-2018 10:55
James___
★★★☆☆
(666)
...I thought I'd show a few technical points since it's 5:30 am and I'm up.
..When a molecule conserves energy then it's KE is "heat content".
.What is "heat content" ? It's electromagnetic radiation.
.When "heat content" is not conserved then it is released. It's this release
that is considered "flow". In this form it is either background electromagnetic radiation
which is also known as "white noise" or static. It can also be E = hv. In this form
it's a specific frequency which is still electromagnetic radiation.
..With a refrigerator, because it is insulated it can be considered as it's own system. This
allows the work required to "cool" it's volume relative to the flow of heat through it's insulation.
..With a propane refrigerator they forgot the hydrogen.
https://binged.it/2AYOKzR
https://binged.it/2B1xw4P

..Folks, that's a major oversight. Why ? Because it's probably the hydrogen that removes heat from inside the refrigerator.

When ammonia encounters hydrogen gas, the chemical reaction between the two absorbs heat. That's how the propane fridge produces its cooling action -- by pulling heat from the interior of the refrigerator into the ammonia-hydrogen mix. As it absorbs heat, the ammonia becomes a gas again. The ammonia and hydrogen gases then combine with water. The ammonia and water form a solution again, which releases the hydrogen gas to rise back to the evaporator. The process then starts all over again.
https://homeguides.sfgate.com/propane-fridge-work-84254.html

..@All,
.This is an example of a cumulative effect. That's because different chemical actions are happening. It's possible that there are chemical interactions in our atmosphere at the moment that are not properly understood. This is where I should thank GasGuzzler and itn for mentioning the propane refrigerator. By knowing how the different chemical processes work in it, it allows us to understand the schematics and flow.
Edited on 11-08-2018 10:59
11-08-2018 15:09
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1046)
James wrote:
..With a propane refrigerator they forgot the hydrogen.

No he didn't! Who's making it up now?? Here's exactly what he said...go back and read. There's a whole lot more.
These refrigerators are rather clever devices that make use of a technique first developed by Dr. Faraday while he was playing around with ammonia. He found that when liquid ammonia combines with hydrogen, an endothermic chemical reaction takes place that also has a side effect of bring the ammonia into vapor.




James wrote:
..I know warmth can be changed. That is what happens when heat is removed until the sensation of being warm changes to being cool.

Nope. If there is no heat, there is no change in temperature.
Again, you associate heat with warm or hot.
Edited on 11-08-2018 15:10
11-08-2018 17:23
James___
★★★☆☆
(666)
GasGuzzler wrote:
James wrote:
..With a propane refrigerator they forgot the hydrogen.

No he didn't! Who's making it up now?? Here's exactly what he said...go back and read. There's a whole lot more.
These refrigerators are rather clever devices that make use of a technique first developed by Dr. Faraday while he was playing around with ammonia. He found that when liquid ammonia combines with hydrogen, an endothermic chemical reaction takes place that also has a side effect of bring the ammonia into vapor.




James wrote:
..I know warmth can be changed. That is what happens when heat is removed until the sensation of being warm changes to being cool.

Nope. If there is no heat, there is no change in temperature.
Again, you associate heat with warm or hot.


..GasGuzzler,
..All you're interested is saying I'm wrong. I said itn didn't mention hydrogen. He copied and pasted what someone wrote. If he understood the process then he would posted what I did. Everyone could clearly see what role hydrogen plays in cooling in a propane system. With what itn copied it was not prominent.
..I'm not sure how to put it to you because you don't understand basic calculus.
KE = 3/2kT describes the conserved energy of air molecules, ie. heat content.
KE = 3/2kT * volume describes heat in it's technical sense and is an accepted definition in the scientific community. In it's most simplistic form "heat" is any state of energy above absolute 0 which is −273.15 °C on the Celsius temperature scale and to −459.67 °F on the Fahrenheit temperature scale.

Please show me where I am wrong. All itn can say is "it's not", etc. ad nauseum.
Edited on 11-08-2018 17:27
11-08-2018 18:18
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5741)
GasGuzzler wrote:
Awe shit, I ain't getting done with work today! Now I've got more questions.

Heh. At least your questions are getting shorter to answer now!
GasGuzzler wrote:
With the poor air flow in the back of a fridge, and air being a poor coupling, why does a fridge not need a fan on the condenser coils? I would think that would increase efficiency significantly.

It does. However, convective cooling is sufficient for the RV style 'fridge. If you look at the unit, you will find that there is usually a port for air to enter the bottom and out the top of the installation back there.
GasGuzzler wrote:
I have worked on window unit air conditioners that actually use a condenser coil fan that picks up water from the evaporator coil drain pan and splashes the water on the condenser coils to increase efficiency.

That's another way, and it works quite well.
GasGuzzler wrote:
How can I fridge / freezer work so well without a fan and barely any air flow?

Mostly because a 'fridge is a heavily insulated box. The insulation is good enough and the box a small enough volume that over time it's able to cool that freezer to make ice.

Total heat flow is the product of air inside the box coupling to the condenser coils, the plumbing itself conveying thermal energy, and the coupling to outside air. As long as the burner is lit, the conveyance system runs in the plumbing. Over time, it's enough.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 11-08-2018 18:20
11-08-2018 18:27
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5741)
James___ wrote:
James___ wrote:
The laws of thermodynamics allows for heat being moved or removed.

Into the Night wrote:[/b
WRONG. Heat doesn't move. You cannot remove heat. Heat is the flow of thermal energy.



...@All,
.This is where the disinformation that GasGuzzler and itn are spreading comes into play. The refrigerator is a "bound" system.

The refrigerator by itself as a thermal system doesn't run. It has no energy source to run the thing, and it has no coupling to any outside anything. It will not cool down.
[b]James___ wrote:
When heat is removed from that system

You cannot remove heat. Now you are talking about a different system.
James___ wrote:
it becomes heat in our atmosphere.

No, our atmosphere IS heat. It has convective, radiant, and conductive heating going on.
James___ wrote:
The insulation that a refrigerator uses helps it to become it's own system.

You cannot call two different thermal systems one system.
James___ wrote:
..And as I mentioned, I'll explain in a day or 2 how a propane refrigerant system removes heat.
They don't. No refrigerator removes heat.
James___ wrote:
This has to do with "how" something removes heat from one system and moves it to a different (our atmosphere) system.

You cannot remove heat. You cannot move heat.
James___ wrote:
..And simply put everyone, if heat can't be moved then a refrigerator can't be cooled.
It can certainly be cooled. It is done by heat.
James___ wrote:
Simple logic in it's proper context.

No, it's your misunderstanding of heat. It is also your misunderstanding of logic.


The Parrot Killer
11-08-2018 18:30
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5741)
James___ wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
James wrote:
The refrigerator is a "bound" system. When heat is removed from that system it becomes heat in our atmosphere.

James! Where did the warmth (not heat)come from in the first place? Possibly our atmosphere? Which was heated by the ground... Which was heated by the Sun. Is this the "waste heat" you always speak of? There's just no such thing!



...Are you really that stupid GasGuzzler ? You're convincing me.

Insult fallacy.
James___ wrote:
..And why is the refrigerator cooler than the atmosphere if heat isn't moved.

Because of heat.
James___ wrote:
And warmth is heat.

No, it is not. Heat is the flow of thermal energy, not the thermal energy itself.
James___ wrote:
I see you've learned well from itn on how to create a circular argument by using the conclusion as a predicate.

Fallacy fallacy. No circular argument exists here. No one is using the conclusion as the predicate. Redefinition fallacy.


The Parrot Killer
11-08-2018 18:31
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5741)
James___ wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:

Nope and nope. Warmth is a result of heat.


..LMAO!!!!!!!![/quote]

Argument of the stone fallacy.

Warmth is the result of heat. Heat is the flow of thermal energy, not the thermal energy itself.


The Parrot Killer
11-08-2018 18:42
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5741)
GasGuzzler wrote:
James___ wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:

Nope and nope. Warmth is a result of heat.


..LMAO!!!!!!!!

Laugh all you want James, I've never been more sure of anything in my life!

Imagine this.....
Take a Rubik's Cube size block of steel and chill it to 49 degrees Fahrenheit below zero. Place it in a large Machine Shed that has been chilled to 50 degrees Fahrenheit below zero. Guess what? There will be heat! The block with transfer energy until equalibrium has been reached. The the air in the machine shed has been heated, but the temp did not measurably rise Everything is still freezing cold, but heat still happened.

While the air in the shed DID rise a very tiny bit, you will not see it on most thermometers.
Assuming the shed to be a 10x10x10 feet, and the block a normal sized Rubick's cube in size, the temperature increase in the shed will be 0.000056 deg F., leaving the shed and cube temperature minus 49.999944 deg F once equilibrium is established again.
GasGuzzler wrote:
You continue to associate heat with hot, and that is where you are incorrect. He can make something hot, but hot is a relative term, and heat is not. Heat just is and always does the same thing.

Quite right.
GasGuzzler wrote:
Heat is the movement or transfer thermal energy and always hot to cold....or cold to colder if you prefer.

If a region is colder than another region, the warmer region is always the 'hot' one, even if it's 50 deg F below zero.

Sounds like a typical sunny day in Minnesota in the winter.



The Parrot Killer
11-08-2018 18:51
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5741)
James___ wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
James___ wrote:
[quote]GasGuzzler wrote:

Nope and nope. Warmth is a result of heat.


..LMAO!!!!!!!!

Laugh all you want James, I've never been more sure of anything in my life!

Imagine this.....
Take a Rubik's Cube size block of steel and chill it to 49 degrees Fahrenheit below zero. Place it in a large Machine Shed that has been chilled to 50 degrees Fahrenheit below zero. Guess what? There will be heat! The block with transfer energy until equalibrium has been reached. The the air in the machine shed has been heated, but the temp did not measurably rise Everything is still freezing cold, but heat still happened.

You continue to associate heat with hot, and that is where you are incorrect. He can make something hot, but hot is a relative term, and heat is not. Heat just is and always does the same thing.

Heat is the movement or transfer thermal energy and always hot to cold....or cold to colder if you prefer.



...Show where I said >> You continue to associate heat with hot <<

In most of your previous posts concerning this subject.
[quote]James___ wrote:
I've always maintained what Boltzmann said and that's
KE = 1/2mv^2 = 3/2kT[quote]
Heat is not involved in this equation at all. It relates the concept of a temperature scale with the average mean kinetic energy.
[quote]James___ wrote:
..It's sad GasGuzzler when you make up things. I guess when all else fails.

Inversion fallacy. It is YOU that attempting to redefine 'heat', 'temperature', and even 'logic'.


The Parrot Killer
11-08-2018 19:05
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5741)
James___ wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
I made up nothing. It was you who said warmth and heat are the same thing. Here it is....
James wrote:
Are you really that stupid GasGuzzler? And warmth is heat.



...Let's see, same thing to me because KE = 3/2kT describes both of them the same way.

This equation does not talk about heat at all. It only talks about thermal energy and temperature scales.
James___ wrote:
Explain how ammonia is compressed in a propane refrigerator.

By heat.
James___ wrote:
Neither you nor itn have done that yet. I'm still waiting.

Just did (again).
James___ wrote:
..You know what's funny GasGuzzler, you're only coming after me because I took the time to learn something.

Apparently not. You're a liar, James. Worse still, you are lying to yourself.
James___ wrote:
What people like you and itn miss is that we can improve what we're doing and possibly create more jobs at the same time.

Not unless you understand what you're doing.
James___ wrote:
One constant I have been told in the U.S. (I'm an American) is that the U.S. is a capitalist country and that's all anyone needs to know.

Heh. They need to know more than that!
James___ wrote:
The environment and the quality of life in the U.S. doesn't matter because being an American means that all people should care about is making money.

WRONG. Capitalism creates wealth, not just makes money. It is the only system that can create wealth out of nothing. By creating wealth, environment and quality of life are improved.
James___ wrote:
..And I think this will create problems because the National Debt already exceeds the GNP.

The government's debt is not wealth.
James___ wrote:
That means in the near future (another decade?) that austerity measures will be necessary.

What...again? Sooner or later people are going to get tired of paying for a bloated government that is exceeding their authority and costing too much.
James___ wrote:
But Americans don't care about something like that because then they'd have to consider getting by with less and that's not what America is about.

You are right on this point.
James___ wrote:
..@All,
I thought I'd add this;
..KE = 1/2mv^2 = 3/2k300n - 3/2k5n = 3/2k295 and 3/2k5n. 3/2k5n is the heat given off or removed.

Random equation. This equation means nothing.
James___ wrote:
itn and GasGuzzler maintain that heat can not be either moved or removed.

It can't. It can be reduced or increased, but it cannot be moved or removed.
James___ wrote:
In making such a statement they are saying that the refrigerator in question is a part of the system which is our atmosphere.

The system is literally what you choose it to be. The only requirement is that the system be consistent. You cannot consider two different systems as the same system.
James___ wrote:
Refrigerators are insulated to reduce the ability of heat to be transferred from the atmosphere to the inside of the refrigerator.

The heating unit is also insulted to make it more efficient.
James___ wrote:
So what point are they trying to make when they are looking at is not possible to be cooled.

It is possible to be cooled. You are still thinking that thermal energy is heat. It is not.
James___ wrote:
I think any engineer would say that heat can be removed from a refrigerator because of how long it can stay cool because of it's insulation.

Such an engineer would be wrong. Fortunately, many engineers are smarter than that.


The Parrot Killer
11-08-2018 19:06
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5741)
GasGuzzler wrote:
James wrote:
itn and GasGuzzler maintain that heat can not be either moved or removed.


Heat IS movement.

If heat is absent from a cooling system, it is not cooling. It is at equilibrium.

Warmth can be moved. That's how a house A/C works, for example. It moves warmth from inside to the house to outside.

Now I'm really going to fry your brain...
Warmth can be removed...by heat


Also....heat will happen regardless of insulation.


All absolutely correct!


The Parrot Killer
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