Remember me
▼ Content

the CO2 measuring device at Mauna Loa seems to be broken


the CO2 measuring device at Mauna Loa seems to be broken28-03-2017 23:08
Tai Hai Chen
★★★☆☆
(517)
Sometimes it's more than 3 ppm year on year. Sometimes it's less than 1.5 ppm year on year.

https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/weekly.html
Edited on 28-03-2017 23:09
28-03-2017 23:24
Into the Night
★★★★★
(4531)
As if it made any difference.
12-06-2017 22:12
Wake
★★★★★
(2772)
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
Sometimes it's more than 3 ppm year on year. Sometimes it's less than 1.5 ppm year on year.

https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/weekly.html


When ocean waters warm they exude CO2. So you can watch this lessen as the water cools in the northern hemisphere in the winter and pick up again as the water warms in the summer.

What we can be pretty sure of is that the CO2 levels definitely are increasing. But there isn't any connection between increasing CO2 and climate change.

Most of the transfer of heat from ground level to the topopause is via conduction and convection - conduction is from molecules coming in direct connection with other molecules and heat being transferred.

The lower atmosphere is so thick that even when the Earth is plainly radiating off heat it is almost instantly absorbed mostly by H2O but some little amount by CO2. Remember that H2O in the vapor phase is about 100 times more than CO2 and that H2O absorbs nearly across the entire lower IR band whereas the only open band of CO2 is around 6.8 uM in which there is little energy to begin with.

In any case once this heat is contained in the gases of the atmosphere they transmit it from molecule to molecule with no particular reason to make any choices other than how common it is. Since CO2 is only .04% of the atmosphere it isn't going to bump into another CO2 molecule very often. Since O2 is 21% of the atmosphere and N2 is 78% they are going to carry most of the heat in the atmosphere via conduction. Convection is the expansion of the atmosphere from the heat causing the warm air to rise and the cooler air to sink. So there is a continuous cycle during the day of cooler air sinking and being warmed and rising into the top of the troposphere.


And since the atmosphere contains between 3-4% H2O this is sensitive to heat radiation and conduction. Plus H2O is the lightest of the common gases so as convection moves it into the upper atmosphere two things commonly occur - with the rise in the atmosphere the water vapor expands and cool. At this point it falls below the dew point and becomes clouds. If there is a lot of heat and the atmosphere is full of H20 vapor it can turn to clouds at lower levels. The effect of this is that the IR radiation emitted from the Earth is "caught" by the H2O and this heat being at low levels tends to re-radiate in all directions making the areas beneath the clouds warm. At the highest levels the clouds form in the upper tropopause or lowest levels of the stratosphere. The pressure at this point is a tenth of the pressure at the Earth's surface pressure. There is a lot less air molecules around and they tend to be unable to get rid of the temperature via conduction. And the gases are now too thin for convection to work. So they slowly gain temperature to the point at which they radiate the thermal energy away. And because of the altitude most of this radiation ends up going off into space by pure chance.

There is also the problem of winds. These are caused by the rotation of the Earth and the difference in temperature between the equator and the poles.

Atmospheric science is a baby science that has a lot of questions and little evidence to back it up other than broad theories. This is simply too complex to get any real predictions out of. The best of the meteorological studies can guess pretty accurately a week ahead. Other than that I wouldn't believe anyone tell us what is going to happen years or centuries in advance.
13-06-2017 01:43
Into the Night
★★★★★
(4531)
Wake wrote:
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
Sometimes it's more than 3 ppm year on year. Sometimes it's less than 1.5 ppm year on year.

https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/weekly.html


When ocean waters warm they exude CO2. So you can watch this lessen as the water cools in the northern hemisphere in the winter and pick up again as the water warms in the summer.

What we can be pretty sure of is that the CO2 levels definitely are increasing. But there isn't any connection between increasing CO2 and climate change.

Most of the transfer of heat from ground level to the topopause is via conduction and convection - conduction is from molecules coming in direct connection with other molecules and heat being transferred.

The lower atmosphere is so thick that even when the Earth is plainly radiating off heat it is almost instantly absorbed mostly by H2O but some little amount by CO2. Remember that H2O in the vapor phase is about 100 times more than CO2 and that H2O absorbs nearly across the entire lower IR band whereas the only open band of CO2 is around 6.8 uM in which there is little energy to begin with.
H2O does not absorb nearly across the entire lower IR band. You really should look at the absorption signature of H2O (and CO2) for that matter).
Wake wrote:
In any case once this heat is contained in the gases of the atmosphere they transmit it from molecule to molecule with no particular reason to make any choices other than how common it is. Since CO2 is only .04% of the atmosphere it isn't going to bump into another CO2 molecule very often. Since O2 is 21% of the atmosphere and N2 is 78% they are going to carry most of the heat in the atmosphere via conduction. Convection is the expansion of the atmosphere from the heat causing the warm air to rise and the cooler air to sink. So there is a continuous cycle during the day of cooler air sinking and being warmed and rising into the top of the troposphere.

Other than ignoring radiative heating, this part is more or less correct.
Wake wrote:
And since the atmosphere contains between 3-4% H2O
You don't know how much water is in the atmosphere. It varies quite a lot from place to place and from time to time. Check your local listings for the dew point or humidity readings. There is no way to determine a global humidity.
Wake wrote:
this is sensitive to heat radiation and conduction.
Just like all gases in the atmosphere.
Wake wrote:
Plus H2O is the lightest of the common gases

WRONG! H2O has an atomic weight of 18. Oxygen has an atomic weight of 16. Nitrogen has an atomic weight of 14. Hydrogen has an atomic weight of 1. CO2 has an atomic weight of 44. The stuff is a brick. CFC's have an atomic weight of 68. It's even heavier than CO2!
Wake wrote:
so as convection moves it into the upper atmosphere two things commonly occur - with the rise in the atmosphere the water vapor expands and cool.

No, the AIR expands and cools. The water vapor is simply part of the air.
Wake wrote:
At this point it falls below the dew point and becomes clouds.
Colder air cannot hold as much water vapor as warmer air. It condenses out. That is dependent on the humidity of the air and its temperature. This is the point where water vapor becomes liquid water, suspended in the air, or ice suspended in the air.
Wake wrote:
If there is a lot of heat and the atmosphere is full of H20 vapor it can turn to clouds at lower levels
More heat means a higher dew point.That means the air must rise MORE and expand MORE to reach the condensation point. The bottom of the cloud layer is generally higher in the summer than in the winter.

If there is a lot of humidity, the bottom of the clouds can form lower.

Hotter days around marine areas mean more humidity as the oceans vaporize. Clouds over oceans tend to be lower than clouds over land.

Wake wrote:
The effect of this is that the IR radiation emitted from the Earth is "caught" by the H2O and this heat being at low levels tends to re-radiate in all directions making the areas beneath the clouds warm.
You cannot heat a hotter substance with a cooler one. That violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics. A colder cloud cannot heat the warmer land beneath it. You might as well try to make hot coffee with an ice cube.
Wake wrote:
At the highest levels the clouds form in the upper tropopause or lowest levels of the stratosphere.
True. These clouds tend to be made of ice, not liquid water. The water vapor directly deposits into ice suspended in the air.
Wake wrote:
The pressure at this point is a tenth of the pressure at the Earth's surface pressure. There is a lot less air molecules around and they tend to be unable to get rid of the temperature via conduction.
Air is a poor conductor at any altitude. Most heating is by convection and radiation. That's why we use fans on computers to keep the CPU or the GPU cool. Air cooled engines on aircraft come with a large built-in fan right in front of the engine.
Wake wrote:
And the gases are now too thin for convection to work.
Convection works regardless of the pressure of the gas.
Wake wrote:
So they slowly gain temperature to the point at which they radiate the thermal energy away.
You mean they don't radiate until they reach a certain temperature??? What about the Stefan-Boltzmann law?
Wake wrote:
And because of the altitude most of this radiation ends up going off into space by pure chance.

It all goes to space. It doesn't get a chance to do anything else.
Wake wrote:
There is also the problem of winds. These are caused by the rotation of the Earth and the difference in temperature between the equator and the poles.
Winds are actually caused by a difference in stability, not temperature.
Wake wrote:
Atmospheric science is a baby science
Nope. It's as old as the hills. We've used atmospheric science ever since we first put a sail on a boat.
Wake wrote:
that has a lot of questions and little evidence to back it up other than broad theories.

Science isn't data. It is just a collection of falsifiable theories. Define 'broad theory'.
Wake wrote:
This is simply too complex to get any real predictions out of.
Atmospheric science contains many equations. Each one of these equations has the power of prediction.
Wake wrote:
The best of the meteorological studies can guess pretty accurately a week ahead.

Their experience is usually pretty good for their area. They use probability math, which has no power of prediction, and watch the weather like watching the waves on the sea.
Wake wrote:
Other than that I wouldn't believe anyone tell us what is going to happen years or centuries in advance.

Watching approaching waves and predicting when and how they will break when they reach shore is the same thing as meteorology forecasting today. If the wave hasn't even formed yet, they have nothing to work with.


The Parrot Killer
13-06-2017 02:57
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3109)
Wake wrote: When ocean waters warm they exude CO2.

When ocean water evaporates, it releases trapped CO2 into the atmosphere, increasing the water's pH (alkalinity)

Wake wrote: Most of the transfer of heat from ground level to the topopause is via conduction and convection -

I have no idea why you insist on using the wrong terms.

Thermal energy is what "transfers" in convection and conduction. Heat is that flow of thermal energy. Heat is a flow.



.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
14-06-2017 02:33
Leitwolf
★☆☆☆☆
(75)
When ocean waters warm they exude CO2. So you can watch this lessen as the water cools in the northern hemisphere in the winter and pick up again as the water warms in the summer.


Oh no! It is not about the ocean this time. As the northern hemisphere holds less ocean than the southern, one could follow still that logic. Then the seasonal heating of the southern ocean would cause more atmospheric CO2 and that would be in line with the annual low during northern summer, and annual peak during southern summer.

But in reality, it is much more about land based vegetation, which has a much more direct access to atmospheric CO2, and of course here the northern hemisphere plays the dominant role.
16-06-2017 00:23
Wake
★★★★★
(2772)
Leitwolf wrote:
When ocean waters warm they exude CO2. So you can watch this lessen as the water cools in the northern hemisphere in the winter and pick up again as the water warms in the summer.


Oh no! It is not about the ocean this time. As the northern hemisphere holds less ocean than the southern, one could follow still that logic. Then the seasonal heating of the southern ocean would cause more atmospheric CO2 and that would be in line with the annual low during northern summer, and annual peak during southern summer.

But in reality, it is much more about land based vegetation, which has a much more direct access to atmospheric CO2, and of course here the northern hemisphere plays the dominant role.


Just out of curiosity - what connection do you believe that the southern ocean has with the north? I mean aside from the fact that they're on the same planet?

Look at this picture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outgoing_longwave_radiation#/media/File:AIRS_OLR.png

You can see a SHARP dividing line between the Northern and the Southern Hemispheres. If you were considering where the warmest areas would be wouldn't you assume that it would be the equator?

And yet it isn't. This is because the winds between the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn and the equator effectively divide the atmosphere into two halves.

Not that this would matter since all of the testing sites around the world for CO2 show pretty local effects.

I should also add that the differences are so great between the hemispheres that there is an entirely different temperature record for each half.
Edited on 16-06-2017 00:43
16-06-2017 00:56
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3109)
Wake wrote: Just out of curiosity - what connection do you believe that the southern ocean has with the north? I mean aside from the fact that they're on the same planet?

Isn't it all just one big planetary ocean? It all seems pretty connected to me.



.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist




Join the debate the CO2 measuring device at Mauna Loa seems to be broken:

Remember me

Related content
ThreadsRepliesLast post
CO2 and Global Warming712-11-2017 17:50
Those who argue that "CO2 isn't a pollutant, it's necessary for life" are going about i5906-11-2017 19:51
Can we build an efficient hybrid solar-natural gas engine that emits no CO2?305-10-2017 02:36
CO2 Absorption Band Energy Depleted?2522-09-2017 17:50
Measuring Mean Global Temperature.3222-09-2017 11:23
▲ Top of page
Public Poll
Will Arctic summers be ice-free in this century?

Yes

No

Don't know


Thanks for supporting Climate-Debate.com.
Copyright © 2009-2017 Climate-Debate.com | About | Contact