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Solar Power Generator Observations


Solar Power Generator Observations31-10-2017 10:14
GreenMan
★★★☆☆
(621)
I have recently undertaken a project that has opened my eyes to some things that are going on, that are interesting, and thought others might like to know.

For starters, there is an excuse to do nothing about heading off Climate Change, because it's not just us causing it. The Chinese are bigger contributors than we are. What about them? What are they going to do? As if the Chinese are not concerned, and it would just be us footing the bill, if we decided to join the world-wide effort to combat Climate Change.

I found out that what's really going on in China is that the Chinese government is actually subsidizing the Solar Panel manufacturers, in order to give the Solar Power Industry a kick start. And it worked out quite well. If you search Solar Panel on Alibiba you can find them down in the $0.30/KW range, as compared to $1.20/KW elsewhere.

When I went out for a quote on a dozen 300 Watt Solar Panels, the very nice and helpful Chinese lady asked me where I was, and when I told her, she said it was very difficult to do business in this part of the world. I asked her why, and she told me that there was an import tariff of 250% on Solar Panels from China to the US, to prevent Dumping. [Dumping is a practice where a huge company can sell under their cost to manufacture something, just to put their smaller competetors out of business] So she wouldn't even give me a quote, and told me to buy my panels local.

So I looked into that, and found out that a few years ago, a steep tariff was indeed put on Chinese Solar Panels, because they were selling at below manufacturing cost. They could easily do that, because the Chinese government was subsidizing their businesses. Fortunately, that tariff does not apply to their Inverters or Chargers, and you can still get a lot better deal on those than you can find locally. Of course, you better know what you are doing when you buy it, and install it.

The Chinese manufacturers proudly display pictures on their websites of what we refer to as "sweat shops," where they make their goods. Believe it or not, they look more modern and pleasant that most American companies I've been in.

I also found out that the import tariff on Solar Panels is about to see an across the board increase, to protect our emerging Solar Panel industry, as the expense of our Solar Power Installation companies. Get a few quotes from American Solar Panel manufacturers, and you will find out why. I think it is quite ironic that a tariff on solar panels hurts the industry that installs solar panels, but that is what it boils down to.

Now would be a good time to get started on building that Solar Generator that you have been thinking about, because prices are about to stop coming down, and start going up.

I'm putting together a 5KW Mobile Solar Generator that will adequately power a Tiny House, or run a deep well and shop out in the wilderness, for my ex, who I built a Tiny House for. And I'm going to build a generator for me also, down in GA, and live off grid for the rest of my life.

If you are wondering what a Mobile Solar Generator is, it is 1,000 lbs of batteries and 4, 300 watt Solar Panels and a control panel with the electronics all mounted on a 4X7 utility trailer. The Panels will fold up in the middle of the trailer and ride edgeways while the generator is being transported to a new location. After the generator is located and leveled, the Panels can be folded down and deployed. In fifteen minutes after getting there, you have free electricity [if it's not too cloudy]. The cost of building that, if anyone is interested is around $10,000.00, if you specify the components yourself without relying on someone else to be your expert. There's always a fee for that, even if it's not an up front one.

I looked at the payback versus investment cost, and found the reason we don't see these things on everyone's roofs, also. The payback is wayyyyyyyyyyyyy the hell down the road. So far down the road that practical people have a hard time even thinking about investing in Solar Power for their personal needs. A solar generating system will eventually pay for itself, but it is many years down the road, because the cost of electricity is so inexpensive.

Well, that is until the CO2 taxes start being applied to our utility bills. Of course, we have the Fuhrer who stands with the Deniers, so it will be a few years down the road before the CO2 taxes make it here. But the Fuhrer doesn't get to last forever, and the next guy will be known forever as the Raiser of Taxes, because he will implement that much despised tax. It will still be possible to build your own Solar Generator then, but of course, then you will have to compete with millions of others all trying to do the same thing at once, so expect to pay a premium for everything.

Oh, if anyone is interested, $15,000.00 plus delivery will get them a Mobile 5KW 220/110 60 hz Solar Power Generator, with 16.8 KWtHrs of Battery Storage, and 1.2 KW Charging Power [roughly 25 KWHrs/Day].


~*~ GreenMan ~*~
31-10-2017 17:32
Into the Night
★★★★★
(4319)
Ever ask yourself why the cost of electricity in your area is so inexpensive?
01-11-2017 04:16
GreenMan
★★★☆☆
(621)
No, why would I ask someone who knows nothing of running a power generating station anything about the cost of doing such? If I was curious about something like that, I would instead do a search on the internet, and see what the experts say.

But since you ask, and I know a little about it, I can tell you what I think. There are a lot of factors but the primary reason we have such inexpensive electricity is because we have vast resources of inexpensive fuel, including coal, gas, and oil. And let's not leave out our ability to generate electricity with nuclear energy as well.

We enjoy quite a nice life, compared to how people lived even a hundred years ago, because of that cheap source of power. Would you believe me if I told you that Moses actually predicted our rise to power, through the use of oil? No, I didn't think you would, even if I showed you the quote. So I'll show you the quote anyway.

Moses said in Deuteronomy 32
"He made him ride in the heights of the earth,
That he might eat the produce of the fields;
He made him draw honey from the rock,
And oil from the flinty rock;
14 Curds from the cattle, and milk of the flock,
With fat of lambs;
And rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats,
With the choicest wheat;
And you drank wine, the blood of the grapes.
15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked;
You grew fat, you grew thick,
You are obese!
Then he forsook God who made him,
And scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation.


Do you see the part about Jeshurun riding the heights of earth? That is of course what we are doing today. We are riding the heights of earth, because we are living better than any people before us have lived.

Right after that, do you see the part Jeshurun will draw honey from a rock, and oil from flinty rock? That is a perfect description of the oil we like to use for making the best grades of gasoline. Sweet Crude looks like honey, and has a sweet taste to it, which is where it gets it name. And that part about getting oil from a flinty rock. That is an uncannily accurate description of what we just figure out to do, and are now really enjoying life since the cost of gasoline went down after fracking became common.

Moses even pointed out that we would become a nation of obese people, which we have done.

So now, it is time for people to realize that this was all predicted to happen. That way they can begin to come to terms with what is going on, and make plans for their survival. Those who rely on false gods and other bull shit aren't going to fare well.


~*~ GreenMan ~*~
01-11-2017 18:23
Into the Night
★★★★★
(4319)
GreenMan wrote:
No, why would I ask someone who knows nothing of running a power generating station anything about the cost of doing such? If I was curious about something like that, I would instead do a search on the internet, and see what the experts say.

But since you ask, and I know a little about it, I can tell you what I think. There are a lot of factors but the primary reason we have such inexpensive electricity is because we have vast resources of inexpensive fuel, including coal, gas, and oil. And let's not leave out our ability to generate electricity with nuclear energy as well.


Bingo. Commodity prices for this fuel mean there is plenty of it.


The Parrot Killer
02-11-2017 05:18
GreenMan
★★★☆☆
(621)
Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
No, why would I ask someone who knows nothing of running a power generating station anything about the cost of doing such? If I was curious about something like that, I would instead do a search on the internet, and see what the experts say.

But since you ask, and I know a little about it, I can tell you what I think. There are a lot of factors but the primary reason we have such inexpensive electricity is because we have vast resources of inexpensive fuel, including coal, gas, and oil. And let's not leave out our ability to generate electricity with nuclear energy as well.


Bingo. Commodity prices for this fuel mean there is plenty of it.


Plenty of Sun too. And when that runs out, the wind blows stronger. Those will continue to work after the grid goes down, and if everyone went ahead and switched over, the grid might not go down.


~*~ GreenMan ~*~
02-11-2017 21:42
Into the Night
★★★★★
(4319)
GreenMan wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
No, why would I ask someone who knows nothing of running a power generating station anything about the cost of doing such? If I was curious about something like that, I would instead do a search on the internet, and see what the experts say.

But since you ask, and I know a little about it, I can tell you what I think. There are a lot of factors but the primary reason we have such inexpensive electricity is because we have vast resources of inexpensive fuel, including coal, gas, and oil. And let's not leave out our ability to generate electricity with nuclear energy as well.


Bingo. Commodity prices for this fuel mean there is plenty of it.


Plenty of Sun too. And when that runs out, the wind blows stronger. Those will continue to work after the grid goes down, and if everyone went ahead and switched over, the grid might not go down.


Your independent system will go down quicker than the grid will. Things break. The grid is amazingly resilient to broken hardware. Whole power plants can fail and it makes not one whit of difference to users of the grid.

Like I said. If you want to be a Luddite and live in your bunker, feel free. Just don't expect me to join you in your cause.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 02-11-2017 21:45
06-11-2017 05:09
GreenMan
★★★☆☆
(621)
Into the Night wrote:

Your independent system will go down quicker than the grid will. Things break. The grid is amazingly resilient to broken hardware. Whole power plants can fail and it makes not one whit of difference to users of the grid.

Like I said. If you want to be a Luddite and live in your bunker, feel free. Just don't expect me to join you in your cause.


Parrot, I don't even want you to join me in my cause, because my cause is to make it to the next level of existence on earth, and people like you are excluded. But don't go crying foul about that, because you can only exclude yourself. You do that by making the wrong choices as we enter the Gates. [psssst....we're entering the Gates now]

And yes, I know of equipment failures, and I also know about stocking replacement parts. So I think I can keep something as simple as a Solar Generator in operation for several generations, since they are electronic not mechanical. The parts have a life expectancy of over 20 years. And even after that, everything continues to work, just the solar panels are less efficient. And of course, the batteries have to be replaced periodically [roughly every 15 years, depending on service requirements].

So I think I can stock up on batteries and solar panels and an extra inverter or two and be set for life. And who knows, I'm not really satisfied with SLAs, so I might even see if I can come up with a better method of storing an electrical charge.


~*~ GreenMan ~*~
06-11-2017 19:32
Into the Night
★★★★★
(4319)
GreenMan wrote:
Into the Night wrote:

Your independent system will go down quicker than the grid will. Things break. The grid is amazingly resilient to broken hardware. Whole power plants can fail and it makes not one whit of difference to users of the grid.

Like I said. If you want to be a Luddite and live in your bunker, feel free. Just don't expect me to join you in your cause.


Parrot, I don't even want you to join me in my cause, because my cause is to make it to the next level of existence on earth, and people like you are excluded.

Since your next level of existence on Earth is to hide in a bunker, you can have it.
GreenMan wrote:
But don't go crying foul about that, because you can only exclude yourself.

Not a problem. I have better things to do than living in a bunker. I go out and help people live better lives.
GreenMan wrote:
You do that by making the wrong choices as we enter the Gates. [psssst....we're entering the Gates now]

What gates? The door to your bunker? You go on.
GreenMan wrote:
And yes, I know of equipment failures, and I also know about stocking replacement parts.

So you are going to have TWO complete systems?
GreenMan wrote:
So I think I can keep something as simple as a Solar Generator in operation for several generations, since they are electronic not mechanical.

They are both.
GreenMan wrote:
The parts have a life expectancy of over 20 years.

If you exclude unforeseen events, and if you maintain them, you might get 20 years out of them.
GreenMan wrote:
And even after that, everything continues to work, just the solar panels are less efficient.

Nope. All kinds of things can happen to solar panels, inverters, wiring, batteries, etc.
GreenMan wrote:
And of course, the batteries have to be replaced periodically [roughly every 15 years, depending on service requirements].

I thought you were going to isolate yourself. Where are you going to buy your batteries when, as you say 'civilization ends'. Do you have any idea what the supply lines look like to produce those batteries?
GreenMan wrote:
So I think I can stock up on batteries

Won't work. Batteries began to age as soon as they are built. They age whether you use them or not. If you don't use them at all, they will actually fail sooner.
GreenMan wrote:
and solar panels

Solar panel? What are you going to do? Store a complete set of solar panels in your bunker? Exposing them to the Sun begins to age them, you know, whether you are actually pulling current from them or not.
GreenMan wrote:
and an extra inverter or two and be set for life.

Those are probably going to be the easiest things to keep working. You've forgotten a few things though.

What about the mounting system? What about the affects of snow, dust, winds, ash, fire, drunk drivers, saboteurs, vandals, thieves, etc. on the array?
GreenMan wrote:
And who knows, I'm not really satisfied with SLAs, so I might even see if I can come up with a better method of storing an electrical charge.

Like what?

Enjoy your bunker. Sounds like life is really going to suck there.


The Parrot Killer
07-11-2017 05:35
GreenMan
★★★☆☆
(621)
Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
Into the Night wrote:

Your independent system will go down quicker than the grid will. Things break. The grid is amazingly resilient to broken hardware. Whole power plants can fail and it makes not one whit of difference to users of the grid.

Like I said. If you want to be a Luddite and live in your bunker, feel free. Just don't expect me to join you in your cause.


Parrot, I don't even want you to join me in my cause, because my cause is to make it to the next level of existence on earth, and people like you are excluded.

Since your next level of existence on Earth is to hide in a bunker, you can have it.
GreenMan wrote:
But don't go crying foul about that, because you can only exclude yourself.

Not a problem. I have better things to do than living in a bunker. I go out and help people live better lives.
GreenMan wrote:
You do that by making the wrong choices as we enter the Gates. [psssst....we're entering the Gates now]

What gates? The door to your bunker? You go on.
GreenMan wrote:
And yes, I know of equipment failures, and I also know about stocking replacement parts.

So you are going to have TWO complete systems?
GreenMan wrote:
So I think I can keep something as simple as a Solar Generator in operation for several generations, since they are electronic not mechanical.

They are both.
GreenMan wrote:
The parts have a life expectancy of over 20 years.

If you exclude unforeseen events, and if you maintain them, you might get 20 years out of them.
GreenMan wrote:
And even after that, everything continues to work, just the solar panels are less efficient.

Nope. All kinds of things can happen to solar panels, inverters, wiring, batteries, etc.
GreenMan wrote:
And of course, the batteries have to be replaced periodically [roughly every 15 years, depending on service requirements].

I thought you were going to isolate yourself. Where are you going to buy your batteries when, as you say 'civilization ends'. Do you have any idea what the supply lines look like to produce those batteries?
GreenMan wrote:
So I think I can stock up on batteries

Won't work. Batteries began to age as soon as they are built. They age whether you use them or not. If you don't use them at all, they will actually fail sooner.
GreenMan wrote:
and solar panels

Solar panel? What are you going to do? Store a complete set of solar panels in your bunker? Exposing them to the Sun begins to age them, you know, whether you are actually pulling current from them or not.
GreenMan wrote:
and an extra inverter or two and be set for life.

Those are probably going to be the easiest things to keep working. You've forgotten a few things though.

What about the mounting system? What about the affects of snow, dust, winds, ash, fire, drunk drivers, saboteurs, vandals, thieves, etc. on the array?
GreenMan wrote:
And who knows, I'm not really satisfied with SLAs, so I might even see if I can come up with a better method of storing an electrical charge.

Like what?

Enjoy your bunker. Sounds like life is really going to suck there.


I'm not planning on living in a bunker. My plan is to build a Kiva and live in it. And you are right about finding supplies after "civilization ends." It will be quite difficult to buy anything after our system of commerce grinds to a halt.

And it will grind to a halt. Until then, I will use solar and wind, and just replace what I need to when I need to. After that, it's a crap shoot. Eventually everything man-made breaks down, so counting on anything to last forever isn't sane. But people lived without electricity for millions of years, so we know it's not an absolute necessity for survival. But to try and live without it now would probably get a person locked up, if children are involved.

There are lots of ways to store energy. And most of them are not practical, because of conversion losses. What I really need is a way to generate electricity continuously, so I don't need to store energy. I would love to figure that one out. According to some mythology, that does get figured out by someone. It even shows up in the Bible, in the stories of Elijah, who brings down fire from the sky and cooks a bull grown bull with it. That's not really special though. I'll be able to do that with the Solar Generator I'm building.

But it does stand to reason, that if a man could figure out how to get a little energy from the spin of the earth, that all our energy problems would be solved. Or perhaps, the gravitational pull of the moon might be utilized. After all, it moves water around in the ocean, so it has an enormous amount of pull, spread out over a vast area.

And if none of that pays out, I'm thinking that perhaps hydrogen fuel cells might be the answer. Hydrogen can be generated during the day, and then burned at night to produce energy. And that solution makes the most sense, except for the cost of building a fuel cell. That's not something that a DIYer can really handle. And as far as I know, there aren't many small fuel cells on the market currently. So I might have to design a small one myself. That's not outside the realm of possibilities, since I used to work for Fuel Cell Energy in Danbury, CT, and still have a connection there. I designed the electrical layouts for the control systems, and didn't get involved in the actual building of the fuel cell, but it can't be that complicated, right?

All they are doing is combining hydrogen with oxygen over a chunk of nickel. Water goes out the bottom, and electricity flows out the ends of the nickel. Or something like that. It's a natural process, that I think is the actual source of lightning. Yes, I know Parrot. You think the source of energy behind lightning is friction. That makes sense in a way, because if you run a balloon on your head, it will stick to a wall because of the static cling you just gave it. But that isn't how lightning is fueled. It is fueled by the electricity generated when hydrogen and oxygen gases combine to form water vapor that makes the clouds. I think the hydrogen rises till it cools. When it cools, it recombined with the oxygen. A small amount of electricity is generated, which is stored in the surrounding water vapor [somehow] until it reaches a potential high enough to overcome the resistance of the air between the cloud and another cloud or ground.

But that still doesn't solve the problem of what to do after the collapse of commerce.

According to prophecies, about 2/3 of the population leaves, so that means about 2 billion people will still be around to rebuild. I'm thinking that their order of priority will probably be establishing things like communication and trade. They will also be able to figure out how to run the factories that make our stuff now. Why not? Just sweep the dead bodies out of the way, and crank this puppy up.

My goal is to get to that point, and then deal with it then though, since there are so many variables.


~*~ GreenMan ~*~
07-11-2017 20:59
litesong
★★★★☆
(1861)
[b]GreenMan wrote:....does stand to reason.....
It does stand to reason that "old sick silly sleepy sleazy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner many time threatener wake-me-up" is an old sick silly sleepy sleazy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner many time threatener.
08-11-2017 00:49
Into the Night
★★★★★
(4319)
GreenMan wrote:
I'm not planning on living in a bunker. My plan is to build a Kiva and live in it.

You really don't know what a Kiva is, do you? Go study the Hopi religion again.
GreenMan wrote:
And you are right about finding supplies after "civilization ends." It will be quite difficult to buy anything after our system of commerce grinds to a halt.

Why would commerce grind to a halt? The free market is immortal. You can't kill it.
GreenMan wrote:
And it will grind to a halt.

Nope. The free market is immortal. You can't kill it.
GreenMan wrote:
Until then, I will use solar and wind, and just replace what I need to when I need to.

What about those cold windless nights?
GreenMan wrote:
After that, it's a crap shoot.

You're going to have a casino in your Kiva??
GreenMan wrote:
Eventually everything man-made breaks down,

Including dice.
GreenMan wrote:
so counting on anything to last forever isn't sane.

So what are you going to do when 'commerce ends'? Sit in your bunker and starve?
GreenMan wrote:
But people lived without electricity for millions of years,

True. They burned fuel.
GreenMan wrote:
so we know it's not an absolute necessity for survival.

But it sure is nice to have!
GreenMan wrote:
But to try and live without it now would probably get a person locked up,

They lock you up if you have a power outage?
GreenMan wrote:
if children are involved.

Kids love power outages. It's like camping in their own house for them.
GreenMan wrote:
There are lots of ways to store energy.

Potential energy comes in a lot of different forms, true.
GreenMan wrote:
And most of them are not practical, because of conversion losses.

So hydroelectric power isn't going to work, eh? Neither does any form of fire, eh?
GreenMan wrote:
What I really need is a way to generate electricity continuously, so I don't need to store energy.

Turn that shaft anyway you want.
GreenMan wrote:
I would love to figure that one out.

Good luck. The perpetual motion machine is not possible.
GreenMan wrote:
According to some mythology, that does get figured out by someone.

It does? Someone actually falsifies the laws of thermodynamics?
GreenMan wrote:
But it does stand to reason, that if a man could figure out how to get a little energy from the spin of the earth, that all our energy problems would be solved.

We do get energy from the spin of the Earth. The spin of the Earth causes uneven heating. This results in rain. Rain becomes rivers and lakes. Hydroelectric power is already being produced.
GreenMan wrote:
Or perhaps, the gravitational pull of the moon might be utilized.

Tidal power stations are already being built too.
GreenMan wrote:
After all, it moves water around in the ocean, so it has an enormous amount of pull, spread out over a vast area.

The only real problem is anchoring the station and materials strength.
GreenMan wrote:
And if none of that pays out, I'm thinking that perhaps hydrogen fuel cells might be the answer.

Oooo. THAT sounds nice and fancy. Too bad they don't produce much electricity. You need a LOT of hydrogen too. Where are you going to get that? How are you going to store it? What about the oxygen? Where are you going to get that? How are you going to store it?
GreenMan wrote:
Hydrogen can be generated during the day, and then burned at night to produce energy.

How are you going to generate and store that much hydrogen and oxygen during the day? Solar won't cut it.
GreenMan wrote:
And that solution makes the most sense, except for the cost of building a fuel cell.

Platinum is currently selling for $1553 an oz.
GreenMan wrote:
That's not something that a DIYer can really handle.

It sure is. There are even hobby toys to build fuel cells. All you need is platinum wire, some water, and a source of hydrogen and oxygen to bubble through it.
GreenMan wrote:
And as far as I know, there aren't many small fuel cells on the market currently.

Try http://www.fuelcellstore.com.
GreenMan wrote:
So I might have to design a small one myself.

They have all the stuff for this hobby.
GreenMan wrote:
That's not outside the realm of possibilities, since I used to work for Fuel Cell Energy in Danbury, CT, and still have a connection there.

Maybe they can give you a deal on some components.
GreenMan wrote:
I designed the electrical layouts for the control systems, and didn't get involved in the actual building of the fuel cell, but it can't be that complicated, right?

Nope. Not complicated at all.
GreenMan wrote:
All they are doing is combining hydrogen with oxygen over a chunk of nickel. Water goes out the bottom, and electricity flows out the ends of the nickel. Or something like that.

A fuel cell is built like a battery. It operates the same way a battery does. The only difference is that you can keep recharging the battery by replacing the source of ions and anions.
GreenMan wrote:
It's a natural process, that I think is the actual source of lightning.

Not the source of lightning. There is no nickle or platinum in a cloud.
GreenMan wrote:
Yes, I know Parrot. You think the source of energy behind lightning is friction.

That's exactly what it is.
GreenMan wrote:
That makes sense in a way, because if you run a balloon on your head, it will stick to a wall because of the static cling you just gave it.

That's right.
GreenMan wrote:
But that isn't how lightning is fueled.

Yes it is.
GreenMan wrote:
It is fueled by the electricity generated when hydrogen and oxygen gases combine to form water vapor that makes the clouds.

Clouds are not formed by the combination of hydrogen and oxygen. They are formed by condensation as air rises.
GreenMan wrote:
I think the hydrogen rises till it cools. When it cools, it recombined with the oxygen.

Combining hydrogen with oxygen generates a LOT of heat. It is an explosive reaction. We use it for rocket fuel.
GreenMan wrote:
A small amount of electricity is generated,

Nope. No electricity is generated by the combination of hydrogen and oxygen.
GreenMan wrote:
which is stored in the surrounding water vapor [somehow]

Guess you have no idea...do you?
GreenMan wrote:
But that still doesn't solve the problem of what to do after the collapse of commerce.

You can't kill the free market. It is immortal.
GreenMan wrote:
...deleted prophecies...

This is a discussion of climate, not religion (other than the Church of Global Warming).


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 08-11-2017 00:49
08-11-2017 08:42
GreenMan
★★★☆☆
(621)
Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
I'm not planning on living in a bunker. My plan is to build a Kiva and live in it.

You really don't know what a Kiva is, do you? Go study the Hopi religion again.
GreenMan wrote:
And you are right about finding supplies after "civilization ends." It will be quite difficult to buy anything after our system of commerce grinds to a halt.

Why would commerce grind to a halt? The free market is immortal. You can't kill it.
GreenMan wrote:
And it will grind to a halt.

Nope. The free market is immortal. You can't kill it.
GreenMan wrote:
Until then, I will use solar and wind, and just replace what I need to when I need to.

What about those cold windless nights?
GreenMan wrote:
After that, it's a crap shoot.

You're going to have a casino in your Kiva??
GreenMan wrote:
Eventually everything man-made breaks down,

Including dice.
GreenMan wrote:
so counting on anything to last forever isn't sane.

So what are you going to do when 'commerce ends'? Sit in your bunker and starve?
GreenMan wrote:
But people lived without electricity for millions of years,

True. They burned fuel.
GreenMan wrote:
so we know it's not an absolute necessity for survival.

But it sure is nice to have!
GreenMan wrote:
But to try and live without it now would probably get a person locked up,

They lock you up if you have a power outage?
GreenMan wrote:
if children are involved.

Kids love power outages. It's like camping in their own house for them.
GreenMan wrote:
There are lots of ways to store energy.

Potential energy comes in a lot of different forms, true.
GreenMan wrote:
And most of them are not practical, because of conversion losses.

So hydroelectric power isn't going to work, eh? Neither does any form of fire, eh?
GreenMan wrote:
What I really need is a way to generate electricity continuously, so I don't need to store energy.

Turn that shaft anyway you want.
GreenMan wrote:
I would love to figure that one out.

Good luck. The perpetual motion machine is not possible.
GreenMan wrote:
According to some mythology, that does get figured out by someone.

It does? Someone actually falsifies the laws of thermodynamics?
GreenMan wrote:
But it does stand to reason, that if a man could figure out how to get a little energy from the spin of the earth, that all our energy problems would be solved.

We do get energy from the spin of the Earth. The spin of the Earth causes uneven heating. This results in rain. Rain becomes rivers and lakes. Hydroelectric power is already being produced.
GreenMan wrote:
Or perhaps, the gravitational pull of the moon might be utilized.

Tidal power stations are already being built too.
GreenMan wrote:
After all, it moves water around in the ocean, so it has an enormous amount of pull, spread out over a vast area.

The only real problem is anchoring the station and materials strength.
GreenMan wrote:
And if none of that pays out, I'm thinking that perhaps hydrogen fuel cells might be the answer.

Oooo. THAT sounds nice and fancy. Too bad they don't produce much electricity. You need a LOT of hydrogen too. Where are you going to get that? How are you going to store it? What about the oxygen? Where are you going to get that? How are you going to store it?
GreenMan wrote:
Hydrogen can be generated during the day, and then burned at night to produce energy.

How are you going to generate and store that much hydrogen and oxygen during the day? Solar won't cut it.
GreenMan wrote:
And that solution makes the most sense, except for the cost of building a fuel cell.

Platinum is currently selling for $1553 an oz.
GreenMan wrote:
That's not something that a DIYer can really handle.

It sure is. There are even hobby toys to build fuel cells. All you need is platinum wire, some water, and a source of hydrogen and oxygen to bubble through it.
GreenMan wrote:
And as far as I know, there aren't many small fuel cells on the market currently.

Try http://www.fuelcellstore.com.
GreenMan wrote:
So I might have to design a small one myself.

They have all the stuff for this hobby.
GreenMan wrote:
That's not outside the realm of possibilities, since I used to work for Fuel Cell Energy in Danbury, CT, and still have a connection there.

Maybe they can give you a deal on some components.
GreenMan wrote:
I designed the electrical layouts for the control systems, and didn't get involved in the actual building of the fuel cell, but it can't be that complicated, right?

Nope. Not complicated at all.
GreenMan wrote:
All they are doing is combining hydrogen with oxygen over a chunk of nickel. Water goes out the bottom, and electricity flows out the ends of the nickel. Or something like that.

A fuel cell is built like a battery. It operates the same way a battery does. The only difference is that you can keep recharging the battery by replacing the source of ions and anions.
GreenMan wrote:
It's a natural process, that I think is the actual source of lightning.

Not the source of lightning. There is no nickle or platinum in a cloud.
GreenMan wrote:
Yes, I know Parrot. You think the source of energy behind lightning is friction.

That's exactly what it is.
GreenMan wrote:
That makes sense in a way, because if you run a balloon on your head, it will stick to a wall because of the static cling you just gave it.

That's right.
GreenMan wrote:
But that isn't how lightning is fueled.

Yes it is.
GreenMan wrote:
It is fueled by the electricity generated when hydrogen and oxygen gases combine to form water vapor that makes the clouds.

Clouds are not formed by the combination of hydrogen and oxygen. They are formed by condensation as air rises.
GreenMan wrote:
I think the hydrogen rises till it cools. When it cools, it recombined with the oxygen.

Combining hydrogen with oxygen generates a LOT of heat. It is an explosive reaction. We use it for rocket fuel.
GreenMan wrote:
A small amount of electricity is generated,

Nope. No electricity is generated by the combination of hydrogen and oxygen.
GreenMan wrote:
which is stored in the surrounding water vapor [somehow]

Guess you have no idea...do you?
GreenMan wrote:
But that still doesn't solve the problem of what to do after the collapse of commerce.

You can't kill the free market. It is immortal.
GreenMan wrote:
...deleted prophecies...

This is a discussion of climate, not religion (other than the Church of Global Warming).


Thanks for the link. Now if I just had $20,000 I could get me one of those 5KW Fuel Cells. That actually isn't a bad price, when you compare that to the cost of a battery bank that will store enough energy to supply a 5KW Inverter for a week. In fact, it might be a little cheaper, in the long run, if you can figure out how to store the hydrogen and oxygen safely.

Of course, that has already been figured out too, since there are quite a lot of buses on the road that run off of Fuel Cells. It looks like it's really just a matter of money. A lot of money though.

I don't know why you think hydrogen and oxygen cannot be separated with Solar Cells. All it takes is a current being passed through water, and the gases form around the electrodes, where they are collected. Solar Cells provide the energy during the day time, and the gas provides the energy during the night time. The limiting factor is how much storage you have, and how many Solar Panels you have. So I think it's just a matter of expense.

And you are wrong about friction causing lightning. True there is no platinum or nickel in clouds, but neither is required to generate electricity during the combination of the two gases. The metal is used to confine and direct the charge, and even if the metal isn't present, the charge is still generated, just not directed. Instead, the water molecule that is formed is allowed to hold the charge, which is negative with respect to ground, which is where the electron came from in the first place, which the clouds need to get rid of eventually.

Understand this by thinking about what electricity is. One thing it is is an abundance of electrons, that have no home [in the case of clouds]. They are just held onto by the little water droplets and ice crystals that are abundant in clouds. Those free electrons, which are just being held onto by water droplets want to go home, which is the planet's surface. But they can't go home, because there is too much distance between where they are being held and ground. So they just have to hang out until enough of their brothers show up. When enough shows up, their potential becomes so great that the clouds can send out a streamer, which is like a bunch of scout electrons, that are sent out in search of home [ground]. And home is always on the lookout for those streamers too, and will send out streamer of its own. When those two streamers connect, we quickly see an electrostatic discharge, as the cloud unloads most or all of its free electrons back to earth.

Those electrons originated on earth, and the earth wants them back. They were allowed to escape when the water got so warm and light headed that the hydrogen and oxygen molecules decided to get a legal separation, so they could go mingle. And mingle they do, as they magically float above the earth, until it gets so cold that they decide that it's time to cuddle again. So they go find a mate, and when they start to cuddle, a child is immediately born, and they all name their children the same thing. Free Electron.

Like a corporate merger, there are electrons that find themselves redundant to another electron who wants to sit in the same chair. One of those guys gotta take a hike, because clouds don't allow no sharing of the same chair by two electrons. No sir, if a chair is going to be shared, it has to be shared by consenting and opposite charged particles. So one of the electrons becomes a free electron, that now just gets to hang out with whoever will have him. Kind of like a young adult male.

So anyway, that's how it all works. And don't bother to tell me your theory, because I already know that you think it is friction. So do a lot of other people, but most of them admit that they don't really know. And they don't know, any more than you or I. But at least I am letting my mind wander out there, trying to figure out something that has not been totally explained yet. I figure that since I did that with my Climate Model already, that I need to up that.

Would figuring out how to generate electrical power from the same source that generates lightning not up even a Climate Model that works?

I had a friend once, who we called Fuzzy. He was a hilarious guy, because of his deep sense of humor. He could find humor is almost any situation. One of the things that cracked me up about him was something he alway said when he completed some task that had been assigned to him. He would raise is arms in a bow above his head, and exclaim:

And they said it couldn't be done!

Well one thing is for sure. Can't never could.


~*~ GreenMan ~*~
08-11-2017 21:45
Into the Night
★★★★★
(4319)
GreenMan wrote:
Thanks for the link.

Sure. It seemed like an interest of yours.
GreenMan wrote:
Now if I just had $20,000 I could get me one of those 5KW Fuel Cells.

Wait...what?? You have been making the case for quite awhile now about how important it is to build your bunker and power it with fuel cells, or suffer a horrible future of death. Now you say it's not worth $20000???

Funny how it's all so important until you have to PAY FOR IT! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
GreenMan wrote:
That actually isn't a bad price, when you compare that to the cost of a battery bank that will store enough energy to supply a 5KW Inverter for a week. In fact, it might be a little cheaper, in the long run, if you can figure out how to store the hydrogen and oxygen safely.

Storing sufficient hydrogen and oxygen is going to require very high pressures and associated pumping systems, or extremely large tanks. Then of course are the hazardous nature of the gases. Then there is the cost of manufacturing the gases in terms of power used.
GreenMan wrote:
Of course, that has already been figured out too, since there are quite a lot of buses on the road that run off of Fuel Cells. It looks like it's really just a matter of money. A lot of money though.

Those buses run off of methane. That is how a sufficient quantity of hydrogen is generated for them. That process releases carbon dioxide.
GreenMan wrote:
I don't know why you think hydrogen and oxygen cannot be separated with Solar Cells.

They can, but not enough of it can.
GreenMan wrote:
All it takes is a current being passed through water,

Just how much hydrogen and oxygen are you going to make this way per hour?
GreenMan wrote:
and the gases form around the electrodes, where they are collected.

...and stored...how? Extremely large tanks, or high pressure? If high pressure, what about the power required to run the pumps? Where are you going to get that from? The solar cells are already busy producing the gases.
GreenMan wrote:
Solar Cells provide the energy during the day time, and the gas provides the energy during the night time.

Good luck with that one. Can you make enough gas? Can you store it in a reasonable way? Is it worth the much lower BTU you get from hydrogen than from oil or methane? What are you going to put in your car? MORE hydrogen and oxygen??? Just how much of this stuff are you going to need??? Do you know how to handle the high pressures involved safely?
GreenMan wrote:
The limiting factor is how much storage you have, and how many Solar Panels you have.

No, the limiting factor is efficiency of conversion loss. Your losses are quite high.
GreenMan wrote:
So I think it's just a matter of expense.

Nope. A child can make a fuel cell.
GreenMan wrote:
And you are wrong about friction causing lightning.

Going to dazzle us with some more of your bad physics, eh?
GreenMan wrote:
True there is no platinum or nickel in clouds, but neither is required to generate electricity during the combination of the two gases.

Combining hydrogen and oxygen does not by itself generate electricity.
GreenMan wrote:
The metal is used to confine and direct the charge, and even if the metal isn't present, the charge is still generated, just not directed.

The metal is a required catalyst for a fuel cell to work at all. Simply combining hydrogen and oxygen is an explosive reaction that produces no electricity by itself.
GreenMan wrote:
Instead, the water molecule that is formed is allowed to hold the charge, which is negative with respect to ground, which is where the electron came from in the first place, which the clouds need to get rid of eventually.

Water vapor is electrically neutral.
GreenMan wrote:
Understand this by thinking about what electricity is.

Electricity is the presence of a charge, either an excess of electrons, or an excess of protons.
GreenMan wrote:
One thing it is is an abundance of electrons, that have no home [in the case of clouds]. They are just held onto by the little water droplets and ice crystals that are abundant in clouds.

Those free electrons, which are just being held onto by water droplets want to go home,

Water is a molecule. It is electrically neutral, even though it has a polarization. There are no free electrons in a water molecule.
GreenMan wrote:
which is the planet's surface.

Electrons have no 'home'. They go where the protons are. That's found in every atom.
GreenMan wrote:
Those electrons originated on earth, and the earth wants them back.

Electrons have no origin. They simply exist.
GreenMan wrote:
They were allowed to escape when the water got so warm and light headed that the hydrogen and oxygen molecules decided to get a legal separation,

Vaporization does not produce hydrogen and oxygen from water. If it did, you wouldn't need electrolysis to do it! It would also make boiling a pot of water extremely dangerous!
GreenMan wrote:
so they could go mingle. And mingle they do, as they magically float above the earth, until it gets so cold that they decide that it's time to cuddle again. So they go find a mate, and when they start to cuddle, a child is immediately born, and they all name their children the same thing. Free Electron.

Awwwww. How cute.
GreenMan wrote:
So anyway, that's how it all works.

Certainly one of the more fanciful ways I've heard for bad 'physics'.
GreenMan wrote:
And don't bother to tell me your theory, because I already know that you think it is friction. So do a lot of other people, but most of them admit that they don't really know.

They do know. It's measurable.
GreenMan wrote:
And they don't know, any more than you or I.

They do know. It's measurable. It's actually included in certain types of weather forecasts.
GreenMan wrote:
But at least I am letting my mind wander out there, trying to figure out something that has not been totally explained yet. I figure that since I did that with my Climate Model already, that I need to up that.

You're going to compare the bad math and random numbers you came up with against the bad physics you just spouted? Seems like they are similar after all. They both stem from your complete illiteracy of physics, math, or science.
GreenMan wrote:
I had a friend once, who we called Fuzzy. He was a hilarious guy, because of his deep sense of humor. He could find humor is almost any situation. One of the things that cracked me up about him was something he alway said when he completed some task that had been assigned to him. He would raise is arms in a bow above his head, and exclaim:

And they said it couldn't be done!

Well one thing is for sure. Can't never could.

Okay. Let's see you jump into orbit without the use of a spacecraft or spacesuit, survive, travel to the Moon and back, and land safely back on Earth, all without the use of any spacecraft or spacesuit.

What??? You say it can't be done???


The Parrot Killer
08-11-2017 22:06
Tim the plumber
★★★☆☆
(956)
GreenMan wrote:
I have recently undertaken a project that has opened my eyes to some things that are going on, that are interesting, and thought others might like to know.

For starters, there is an excuse to do nothing about heading off Climate Change, because it's not just us causing it. The Chinese are bigger contributors than we are. What about them? What are they going to do? As if the Chinese are not concerned, and it would just be us footing the bill, if we decided to join the world-wide effort to combat Climate Change.

I found out that what's really going on in China is that the Chinese government is actually subsidizing the Solar Panel manufacturers, in order to give the Solar Power Industry a kick start. And it worked out quite well. If you search Solar Panel on Alibiba you can find them down in the $0.30/KW range, as compared to $1.20/KW elsewhere.

When I went out for a quote on a dozen 300 Watt Solar Panels, the very nice and helpful Chinese lady asked me where I was, and when I told her, she said it was very difficult to do business in this part of the world. I asked her why, and she told me that there was an import tariff of 250% on Solar Panels from China to the US, to prevent Dumping. [Dumping is a practice where a huge company can sell under their cost to manufacture something, just to put their smaller competetors out of business] So she wouldn't even give me a quote, and told me to buy my panels local.

So I looked into that, and found out that a few years ago, a steep tariff was indeed put on Chinese Solar Panels, because they were selling at below manufacturing cost. They could easily do that, because the Chinese government was subsidizing their businesses. Fortunately, that tariff does not apply to their Inverters or Chargers, and you can still get a lot better deal on those than you can find locally. Of course, you better know what you are doing when you buy it, and install it.

The Chinese manufacturers proudly display pictures on their websites of what we refer to as "sweat shops," where they make their goods. Believe it or not, they look more modern and pleasant that most American companies I've been in.

I also found out that the import tariff on Solar Panels is about to see an across the board increase, to protect our emerging Solar Panel industry, as the expense of our Solar Power Installation companies. Get a few quotes from American Solar Panel manufacturers, and you will find out why. I think it is quite ironic that a tariff on solar panels hurts the industry that installs solar panels, but that is what it boils down to.

Now would be a good time to get started on building that Solar Generator that you have been thinking about, because prices are about to stop coming down, and start going up.

I'm putting together a 5KW Mobile Solar Generator that will adequately power a Tiny House, or run a deep well and shop out in the wilderness, for my ex, who I built a Tiny House for. And I'm going to build a generator for me also, down in GA, and live off grid for the rest of my life.

If you are wondering what a Mobile Solar Generator is, it is 1,000 lbs of batteries and 4, 300 watt Solar Panels and a control panel with the electronics all mounted on a 4X7 utility trailer. The Panels will fold up in the middle of the trailer and ride edgeways while the generator is being transported to a new location. After the generator is located and leveled, the Panels can be folded down and deployed. In fifteen minutes after getting there, you have free electricity [if it's not too cloudy]. The cost of building that, if anyone is interested is around $10,000.00, if you specify the components yourself without relying on someone else to be your expert. There's always a fee for that, even if it's not an up front one.

I looked at the payback versus investment cost, and found the reason we don't see these things on everyone's roofs, also. The payback is wayyyyyyyyyyyyy the hell down the road. So far down the road that practical people have a hard time even thinking about investing in Solar Power for their personal needs. A solar generating system will eventually pay for itself, but it is many years down the road, because the cost of electricity is so inexpensive.

Well, that is until the CO2 taxes start being applied to our utility bills. Of course, we have the Fuhrer who stands with the Deniers, so it will be a few years down the road before the CO2 taxes make it here. But the Fuhrer doesn't get to last forever, and the next guy will be known forever as the Raiser of Taxes, because he will implement that much despised tax. It will still be possible to build your own Solar Generator then, but of course, then you will have to compete with millions of others all trying to do the same thing at once, so expect to pay a premium for everything.

Oh, if anyone is interested, $15,000.00 plus delivery will get them a Mobile 5KW 220/110 60 hz Solar Power Generator, with 16.8 KWtHrs of Battery Storage, and 1.2 KW Charging Power [roughly 25 KWHrs/Day].


So for running stuff that requires little power, small TV (flat screen) or computter and lights (LED) you would be OK.

For boiling a kettle forget it.

If you add a small wind powered unit to it it may well help a lot as there is often wind during the night and it will cost a small amount, the batteries will be the big ticket bit.

Obviously the sustainability of this is very poor. Those batteries will need replacing and the are full of hard to obtain poisonous stuff. The pannels themselves will degrade over 10 or so years.

But for your out in the woods tiny house it is great.
08-11-2017 23:57
Into the Night
★★★★★
(4319)
Tim the plumber wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
I have recently undertaken a project that has opened my eyes to some things that are going on, that are interesting, and thought others might like to know.

For starters, there is an excuse to do nothing about heading off Climate Change, because it's not just us causing it. The Chinese are bigger contributors than we are. What about them? What are they going to do? As if the Chinese are not concerned, and it would just be us footing the bill, if we decided to join the world-wide effort to combat Climate Change.

I found out that what's really going on in China is that the Chinese government is actually subsidizing the Solar Panel manufacturers, in order to give the Solar Power Industry a kick start. And it worked out quite well. If you search Solar Panel on Alibiba you can find them down in the $0.30/KW range, as compared to $1.20/KW elsewhere.

When I went out for a quote on a dozen 300 Watt Solar Panels, the very nice and helpful Chinese lady asked me where I was, and when I told her, she said it was very difficult to do business in this part of the world. I asked her why, and she told me that there was an import tariff of 250% on Solar Panels from China to the US, to prevent Dumping. [Dumping is a practice where a huge company can sell under their cost to manufacture something, just to put their smaller competetors out of business] So she wouldn't even give me a quote, and told me to buy my panels local.

So I looked into that, and found out that a few years ago, a steep tariff was indeed put on Chinese Solar Panels, because they were selling at below manufacturing cost. They could easily do that, because the Chinese government was subsidizing their businesses. Fortunately, that tariff does not apply to their Inverters or Chargers, and you can still get a lot better deal on those than you can find locally. Of course, you better know what you are doing when you buy it, and install it.

The Chinese manufacturers proudly display pictures on their websites of what we refer to as "sweat shops," where they make their goods. Believe it or not, they look more modern and pleasant that most American companies I've been in.

I also found out that the import tariff on Solar Panels is about to see an across the board increase, to protect our emerging Solar Panel industry, as the expense of our Solar Power Installation companies. Get a few quotes from American Solar Panel manufacturers, and you will find out why. I think it is quite ironic that a tariff on solar panels hurts the industry that installs solar panels, but that is what it boils down to.

Now would be a good time to get started on building that Solar Generator that you have been thinking about, because prices are about to stop coming down, and start going up.

I'm putting together a 5KW Mobile Solar Generator that will adequately power a Tiny House, or run a deep well and shop out in the wilderness, for my ex, who I built a Tiny House for. And I'm going to build a generator for me also, down in GA, and live off grid for the rest of my life.

If you are wondering what a Mobile Solar Generator is, it is 1,000 lbs of batteries and 4, 300 watt Solar Panels and a control panel with the electronics all mounted on a 4X7 utility trailer. The Panels will fold up in the middle of the trailer and ride edgeways while the generator is being transported to a new location. After the generator is located and leveled, the Panels can be folded down and deployed. In fifteen minutes after getting there, you have free electricity [if it's not too cloudy]. The cost of building that, if anyone is interested is around $10,000.00, if you specify the components yourself without relying on someone else to be your expert. There's always a fee for that, even if it's not an up front one.

I looked at the payback versus investment cost, and found the reason we don't see these things on everyone's roofs, also. The payback is wayyyyyyyyyyyyy the hell down the road. So far down the road that practical people have a hard time even thinking about investing in Solar Power for their personal needs. A solar generating system will eventually pay for itself, but it is many years down the road, because the cost of electricity is so inexpensive.

Well, that is until the CO2 taxes start being applied to our utility bills. Of course, we have the Fuhrer who stands with the Deniers, so it will be a few years down the road before the CO2 taxes make it here. But the Fuhrer doesn't get to last forever, and the next guy will be known forever as the Raiser of Taxes, because he will implement that much despised tax. It will still be possible to build your own Solar Generator then, but of course, then you will have to compete with millions of others all trying to do the same thing at once, so expect to pay a premium for everything.

Oh, if anyone is interested, $15,000.00 plus delivery will get them a Mobile 5KW 220/110 60 hz Solar Power Generator, with 16.8 KWtHrs of Battery Storage, and 1.2 KW Charging Power [roughly 25 KWHrs/Day].


So for running stuff that requires little power, small TV (flat screen) or computter and lights (LED) you would be OK.

For boiling a kettle forget it.

If you add a small wind powered unit to it it may well help a lot as there is often wind during the night and it will cost a small amount, the batteries will be the big ticket bit.

Obviously the sustainability of this is very poor. Those batteries will need replacing and the are full of hard to obtain poisonous stuff. The pannels themselves will degrade over 10 or so years.

But for your out in the woods tiny house it is great.


Bunker, actually. He's thinking of building a Kiva.

This is a circular (or sometimes rectangular) semi-underground bit structure, used by the Hopi Indians for their religious ceremonies. It is covered with wooden beams and stones. It's only entrance is through a hatch on the roof.

The Kiva is essentially a symbolic bunker to survive the world's catastrophic changes. It is also a symbolic womb by which the Hopi entered the world as it is exists today. The Bear Clan Kiva has a hole in the floor, representing the path by which the Hopi entered the world as it exists today from the previous one, which was destroyed by some cataclysm. Other Kivas do not generally feature this hole.

Their religion has many of the same characteristics as Shinto, but with this extra twist on it. Each major clan of the Hopi has their own Kiva, within which is conducted their own ceremonies related to that clan. They also acted as community gathering places when religious ceremonies weren't taking place. In the southwest desert where these things are built, they offer a great refuge from the desert heat, and common place for people to gather to keep warm in winter. The winter solstice is one of their more important ceremonies.

He's talked about using it as a house and building it out of concrete, then generating all his needs through solar power and wind generators. I don't think he's figured out how he is going to eat without farming as of yet. He wants to live completely off the grid.

I guess that means he will no longer be on this forum, since the technology used to build and access this forum is built by those who are destroying the world, if you follow the logical conclusion of his viewpoints. Also, as you quite correctly pointed out, his math and engineering s not up to snuff to build a workable power system.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 09-11-2017 00:02
09-11-2017 07:24
GreenMan
★★★☆☆
(621)
Tim the plumber wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
I have recently undertaken a project that has opened my eyes to some things that are going on, that are interesting, and thought others might like to know.

For starters, there is an excuse to do nothing about heading off Climate Change, because it's not just us causing it. The Chinese are bigger contributors than we are. What about them? What are they going to do? As if the Chinese are not concerned, and it would just be us footing the bill, if we decided to join the world-wide effort to combat Climate Change.

I found out that what's really going on in China is that the Chinese government is actually subsidizing the Solar Panel manufacturers, in order to give the Solar Power Industry a kick start. And it worked out quite well. If you search Solar Panel on Alibiba you can find them down in the $0.30/KW range, as compared to $1.20/KW elsewhere.

When I went out for a quote on a dozen 300 Watt Solar Panels, the very nice and helpful Chinese lady asked me where I was, and when I told her, she said it was very difficult to do business in this part of the world. I asked her why, and she told me that there was an import tariff of 250% on Solar Panels from China to the US, to prevent Dumping. [Dumping is a practice where a huge company can sell under their cost to manufacture something, just to put their smaller competetors out of business] So she wouldn't even give me a quote, and told me to buy my panels local.

So I looked into that, and found out that a few years ago, a steep tariff was indeed put on Chinese Solar Panels, because they were selling at below manufacturing cost. They could easily do that, because the Chinese government was subsidizing their businesses. Fortunately, that tariff does not apply to their Inverters or Chargers, and you can still get a lot better deal on those than you can find locally. Of course, you better know what you are doing when you buy it, and install it.

The Chinese manufacturers proudly display pictures on their websites of what we refer to as "sweat shops," where they make their goods. Believe it or not, they look more modern and pleasant that most American companies I've been in.

I also found out that the import tariff on Solar Panels is about to see an across the board increase, to protect our emerging Solar Panel industry, as the expense of our Solar Power Installation companies. Get a few quotes from American Solar Panel manufacturers, and you will find out why. I think it is quite ironic that a tariff on solar panels hurts the industry that installs solar panels, but that is what it boils down to.

Now would be a good time to get started on building that Solar Generator that you have been thinking about, because prices are about to stop coming down, and start going up.

I'm putting together a 5KW Mobile Solar Generator that will adequately power a Tiny House, or run a deep well and shop out in the wilderness, for my ex, who I built a Tiny House for. And I'm going to build a generator for me also, down in GA, and live off grid for the rest of my life.

If you are wondering what a Mobile Solar Generator is, it is 1,000 lbs of batteries and 4, 300 watt Solar Panels and a control panel with the electronics all mounted on a 4X7 utility trailer. The Panels will fold up in the middle of the trailer and ride edgeways while the generator is being transported to a new location. After the generator is located and leveled, the Panels can be folded down and deployed. In fifteen minutes after getting there, you have free electricity [if it's not too cloudy]. The cost of building that, if anyone is interested is around $10,000.00, if you specify the components yourself without relying on someone else to be your expert. There's always a fee for that, even if it's not an up front one.

I looked at the payback versus investment cost, and found the reason we don't see these things on everyone's roofs, also. The payback is wayyyyyyyyyyyyy the hell down the road. So far down the road that practical people have a hard time even thinking about investing in Solar Power for their personal needs. A solar generating system will eventually pay for itself, but it is many years down the road, because the cost of electricity is so inexpensive.

Well, that is until the CO2 taxes start being applied to our utility bills. Of course, we have the Fuhrer who stands with the Deniers, so it will be a few years down the road before the CO2 taxes make it here. But the Fuhrer doesn't get to last forever, and the next guy will be known forever as the Raiser of Taxes, because he will implement that much despised tax. It will still be possible to build your own Solar Generator then, but of course, then you will have to compete with millions of others all trying to do the same thing at once, so expect to pay a premium for everything.

Oh, if anyone is interested, $15,000.00 plus delivery will get them a Mobile 5KW 220/110 60 hz Solar Power Generator, with 16.8 KWtHrs of Battery Storage, and 1.2 KW Charging Power [roughly 25 KWHrs/Day].


So for running stuff that requires little power, small TV (flat screen) or computter and lights (LED) you would be OK.

For boiling a kettle forget it.

If you add a small wind powered unit to it it may well help a lot as there is often wind during the night and it will cost a small amount, the batteries will be the big ticket bit.

Obviously the sustainability of this is very poor. Those batteries will need replacing and the are full of hard to obtain poisonous stuff. The pannels themselves will degrade over 10 or so years.

But for your out in the woods tiny house it is great.


Thanks for the feedback, and you are right about most of it. The Batteries are the weak link, and the most costly. And they will have to be replaced periodically, and the old ones recycled, or disposed of properly [not really sure you can do that]. And you are right about adding a wind turbine. I considered even putting one on the tail gate of that trailer, which has one of those long ones, for driving lawn mowers up the back of it. But after considering that the thing had to be at least 20 feet in the air, I bailed out on putting it on the trailer. But yup, I will have one of them puppies, too.
According to the specs on the solar panels, they should be good for 20 years, before degradation begins to reduce their effeciency. Fortunately, they aren't terribly expensive, and some can be stored away for later use.
Still, the batteries are the weak link, so they need to be replaced with something else.


~*~ GreenMan ~*~
09-11-2017 07:35
GreenMan
★★★☆☆
(621)
Into the Night wrote:
Tim the plumber wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
I have recently undertaken a project that has opened my eyes to some things that are going on, that are interesting, and thought others might like to know.

For starters, there is an excuse to do nothing about heading off Climate Change, because it's not just us causing it. The Chinese are bigger contributors than we are. What about them? What are they going to do? As if the Chinese are not concerned, and it would just be us footing the bill, if we decided to join the world-wide effort to combat Climate Change.

I found out that what's really going on in China is that the Chinese government is actually subsidizing the Solar Panel manufacturers, in order to give the Solar Power Industry a kick start. And it worked out quite well. If you search Solar Panel on Alibiba you can find them down in the $0.30/KW range, as compared to $1.20/KW elsewhere.

When I went out for a quote on a dozen 300 Watt Solar Panels, the very nice and helpful Chinese lady asked me where I was, and when I told her, she said it was very difficult to do business in this part of the world. I asked her why, and she told me that there was an import tariff of 250% on Solar Panels from China to the US, to prevent Dumping. [Dumping is a practice where a huge company can sell under their cost to manufacture something, just to put their smaller competetors out of business] So she wouldn't even give me a quote, and told me to buy my panels local.

So I looked into that, and found out that a few years ago, a steep tariff was indeed put on Chinese Solar Panels, because they were selling at below manufacturing cost. They could easily do that, because the Chinese government was subsidizing their businesses. Fortunately, that tariff does not apply to their Inverters or Chargers, and you can still get a lot better deal on those than you can find locally. Of course, you better know what you are doing when you buy it, and install it.

The Chinese manufacturers proudly display pictures on their websites of what we refer to as "sweat shops," where they make their goods. Believe it or not, they look more modern and pleasant that most American companies I've been in.

I also found out that the import tariff on Solar Panels is about to see an across the board increase, to protect our emerging Solar Panel industry, as the expense of our Solar Power Installation companies. Get a few quotes from American Solar Panel manufacturers, and you will find out why. I think it is quite ironic that a tariff on solar panels hurts the industry that installs solar panels, but that is what it boils down to.

Now would be a good time to get started on building that Solar Generator that you have been thinking about, because prices are about to stop coming down, and start going up.

I'm putting together a 5KW Mobile Solar Generator that will adequately power a Tiny House, or run a deep well and shop out in the wilderness, for my ex, who I built a Tiny House for. And I'm going to build a generator for me also, down in GA, and live off grid for the rest of my life.

If you are wondering what a Mobile Solar Generator is, it is 1,000 lbs of batteries and 4, 300 watt Solar Panels and a control panel with the electronics all mounted on a 4X7 utility trailer. The Panels will fold up in the middle of the trailer and ride edgeways while the generator is being transported to a new location. After the generator is located and leveled, the Panels can be folded down and deployed. In fifteen minutes after getting there, you have free electricity [if it's not too cloudy]. The cost of building that, if anyone is interested is around $10,000.00, if you specify the components yourself without relying on someone else to be your expert. There's always a fee for that, even if it's not an up front one.

I looked at the payback versus investment cost, and found the reason we don't see these things on everyone's roofs, also. The payback is wayyyyyyyyyyyyy the hell down the road. So far down the road that practical people have a hard time even thinking about investing in Solar Power for their personal needs. A solar generating system will eventually pay for itself, but it is many years down the road, because the cost of electricity is so inexpensive.

Well, that is until the CO2 taxes start being applied to our utility bills. Of course, we have the Fuhrer who stands with the Deniers, so it will be a few years down the road before the CO2 taxes make it here. But the Fuhrer doesn't get to last forever, and the next guy will be known forever as the Raiser of Taxes, because he will implement that much despised tax. It will still be possible to build your own Solar Generator then, but of course, then you will have to compete with millions of others all trying to do the same thing at once, so expect to pay a premium for everything.

Oh, if anyone is interested, $15,000.00 plus delivery will get them a Mobile 5KW 220/110 60 hz Solar Power Generator, with 16.8 KWtHrs of Battery Storage, and 1.2 KW Charging Power [roughly 25 KWHrs/Day].


So for running stuff that requires little power, small TV (flat screen) or computter and lights (LED) you would be OK.

For boiling a kettle forget it.

If you add a small wind powered unit to it it may well help a lot as there is often wind during the night and it will cost a small amount, the batteries will be the big ticket bit.

Obviously the sustainability of this is very poor. Those batteries will need replacing and the are full of hard to obtain poisonous stuff. The pannels themselves will degrade over 10 or so years.

But for your out in the woods tiny house it is great.


Bunker, actually. He's thinking of building a Kiva.

This is a circular (or sometimes rectangular) semi-underground bit structure, used by the Hopi Indians for their religious ceremonies. It is covered with wooden beams and stones. It's only entrance is through a hatch on the roof.

The Kiva is essentially a symbolic bunker to survive the world's catastrophic changes. It is also a symbolic womb by which the Hopi entered the world as it is exists today. The Bear Clan Kiva has a hole in the floor, representing the path by which the Hopi entered the world as it exists today from the previous one, which was destroyed by some cataclysm. Other Kivas do not generally feature this hole.

Their religion has many of the same characteristics as Shinto, but with this extra twist on it. Each major clan of the Hopi has their own Kiva, within which is conducted their own ceremonies related to that clan. They also acted as community gathering places when religious ceremonies weren't taking place. In the southwest desert where these things are built, they offer a great refuge from the desert heat, and common place for people to gather to keep warm in winter. The winter solstice is one of their more important ceremonies.

He's talked about using it as a house and building it out of concrete, then generating all his needs through solar power and wind generators. I don't think he's figured out how he is going to eat without farming as of yet. He wants to live completely off the grid.

I guess that means he will no longer be on this forum, since the technology used to build and access this forum is built by those who are destroying the world, if you follow the logical conclusion of his viewpoints. Also, as you quite correctly pointed out, his math and engineering s not up to snuff to build a workable power system.


Nah, I plan on using the Internet as long as it is available. And I'm not against those who provide the things that we use in our daily lives. My thing is that we have to wean ourselves off from it. But there is nothing wrong with the electronic stuff itself. It's the methods of generating power that is the problem.

I'm not sure where you think Tim pointed out that my math and engineering skills are not up to snuff to build a workable power system. I didn't see that, but since you are of that opinion, I'll just mention that the electrical design for that system is complete, the bill of material is complete, and the mechanical frame design is complete. The thing will look like an airplane, when deployed, with the solar panels laid out flat, from the center vertical transport position. And the back of the panels will all the user to raise and lock it into an angle that favors the sun's position.

I told you that I am a Controls Engineer. If you knew what that was, you would know that not only do I write code for automated machinery, I also design the electrical part of the machine, completely, from the power coming in through the main breaker, to the motors turning on when you mash the go button. I've made a very comfortable living designing electrical control systems for the last 35 years of my career, thank you.


~*~ GreenMan ~*~
09-11-2017 19:45
Into the Night
★★★★★
(4319)
GreenMan wrote:
Tim the plumber wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
I have recently undertaken a project that has opened my eyes to some things that are going on, that are interesting, and thought others might like to know.

For starters, there is an excuse to do nothing about heading off Climate Change, because it's not just us causing it. The Chinese are bigger contributors than we are. What about them? What are they going to do? As if the Chinese are not concerned, and it would just be us footing the bill, if we decided to join the world-wide effort to combat Climate Change.

I found out that what's really going on in China is that the Chinese government is actually subsidizing the Solar Panel manufacturers, in order to give the Solar Power Industry a kick start. And it worked out quite well. If you search Solar Panel on Alibiba you can find them down in the $0.30/KW range, as compared to $1.20/KW elsewhere.

When I went out for a quote on a dozen 300 Watt Solar Panels, the very nice and helpful Chinese lady asked me where I was, and when I told her, she said it was very difficult to do business in this part of the world. I asked her why, and she told me that there was an import tariff of 250% on Solar Panels from China to the US, to prevent Dumping. [Dumping is a practice where a huge company can sell under their cost to manufacture something, just to put their smaller competetors out of business] So she wouldn't even give me a quote, and told me to buy my panels local.

So I looked into that, and found out that a few years ago, a steep tariff was indeed put on Chinese Solar Panels, because they were selling at below manufacturing cost. They could easily do that, because the Chinese government was subsidizing their businesses. Fortunately, that tariff does not apply to their Inverters or Chargers, and you can still get a lot better deal on those than you can find locally. Of course, you better know what you are doing when you buy it, and install it.

The Chinese manufacturers proudly display pictures on their websites of what we refer to as "sweat shops," where they make their goods. Believe it or not, they look more modern and pleasant that most American companies I've been in.

I also found out that the import tariff on Solar Panels is about to see an across the board increase, to protect our emerging Solar Panel industry, as the expense of our Solar Power Installation companies. Get a few quotes from American Solar Panel manufacturers, and you will find out why. I think it is quite ironic that a tariff on solar panels hurts the industry that installs solar panels, but that is what it boils down to.

Now would be a good time to get started on building that Solar Generator that you have been thinking about, because prices are about to stop coming down, and start going up.

I'm putting together a 5KW Mobile Solar Generator that will adequately power a Tiny House, or run a deep well and shop out in the wilderness, for my ex, who I built a Tiny House for. And I'm going to build a generator for me also, down in GA, and live off grid for the rest of my life.

If you are wondering what a Mobile Solar Generator is, it is 1,000 lbs of batteries and 4, 300 watt Solar Panels and a control panel with the electronics all mounted on a 4X7 utility trailer. The Panels will fold up in the middle of the trailer and ride edgeways while the generator is being transported to a new location. After the generator is located and leveled, the Panels can be folded down and deployed. In fifteen minutes after getting there, you have free electricity [if it's not too cloudy]. The cost of building that, if anyone is interested is around $10,000.00, if you specify the components yourself without relying on someone else to be your expert. There's always a fee for that, even if it's not an up front one.

I looked at the payback versus investment cost, and found the reason we don't see these things on everyone's roofs, also. The payback is wayyyyyyyyyyyyy the hell down the road. So far down the road that practical people have a hard time even thinking about investing in Solar Power for their personal needs. A solar generating system will eventually pay for itself, but it is many years down the road, because the cost of electricity is so inexpensive.

Well, that is until the CO2 taxes start being applied to our utility bills. Of course, we have the Fuhrer who stands with the Deniers, so it will be a few years down the road before the CO2 taxes make it here. But the Fuhrer doesn't get to last forever, and the next guy will be known forever as the Raiser of Taxes, because he will implement that much despised tax. It will still be possible to build your own Solar Generator then, but of course, then you will have to compete with millions of others all trying to do the same thing at once, so expect to pay a premium for everything.

Oh, if anyone is interested, $15,000.00 plus delivery will get them a Mobile 5KW 220/110 60 hz Solar Power Generator, with 16.8 KWtHrs of Battery Storage, and 1.2 KW Charging Power [roughly 25 KWHrs/Day].


So for running stuff that requires little power, small TV (flat screen) or computter and lights (LED) you would be OK.

For boiling a kettle forget it.

If you add a small wind powered unit to it it may well help a lot as there is often wind during the night and it will cost a small amount, the batteries will be the big ticket bit.

Obviously the sustainability of this is very poor. Those batteries will need replacing and the are full of hard to obtain poisonous stuff. The pannels themselves will degrade over 10 or so years.

But for your out in the woods tiny house it is great.


Thanks for the feedback, and you are right about most of it. The Batteries are the weak link, and the most costly. And they will have to be replaced periodically, and the old ones recycled, or disposed of properly [not really sure you can do that].

Depends on the battery.

Lead-acid cells are pretty easy to recycle. Just dump the acid out and get the lead to your local lead smelter. What? You don't have a lead smelter because the 'economy collapsed'?

Lithium oxide cells are cheaper to just throw away and get new ones. They will decompose harmlessly on their own.

GreenMan wrote:
And you are right about adding a wind turbine. I considered even putting one on the tail gate of that trailer, which has one of those long ones, for driving lawn mowers up the back of it. But after considering that the thing had to be at least 20 feet in the air, I bailed out on putting it on the trailer. But yup, I will have one of them puppies, too.

That would have entertaining to see you get one of THOSE under the overpass!
GreenMan wrote:
According to the specs on the solar panels, they should be good for 20 years, before degradation begins to reduce their effeciency. Fortunately, they aren't terribly expensive, and some can be stored away for later use.

Only if they are maintained. Damage from the elements shortens their life considerably...especially damage from freeze thaw cycles (which damages the structure and the mounts) and windstorms (which carry dust and scratch the surface up).
GreenMan wrote:
Still, the batteries are the weak link, so they need to be replaced with something else.

You could always try to pump water uphill, then use hydroelectric power afterwards. Such a system is called a 'ballast' (which includes batteries too, if you choose that technology).

Did you know that electrical grids are self ballasting?


The Parrot Killer
09-11-2017 20:00
Into the Night
★★★★★
(4319)
GreenMan wrote:
Nah, I plan on using the Internet as long as it is available. And I'm not against those who provide the things that we use in our daily lives. My thing is that we have to wean ourselves off from it.

So the use of silicon furnaces, huge server farms, all that power to run the microwave towers and satellite communication systems, the use of arsenic, lead, tin, aluminum, and gold including all the mining and ore processing and smelting to obtain all these metals require, the transportation systems to bring all these materials together, the power the factories use, the transportation systems used to get final products to people who built the internet...all of that...doesn't bother you?
GreenMan wrote:
But there is nothing wrong with the electronic stuff itself.

Gee. It must be nice to stick your head in the sand and smugly feel you are completely isolated from all of that.
GreenMan wrote:
It's the methods of generating power that is the problem.

What's wrong with oil, coal, methane, nuclear, hydroelectric, or any other method of generating electric power? Do you dislike large, fixed power stations that supply literally millions with convenient power? Do you dislike that we have it so available that we can produce the products and materials for the internet itself to exist, as well as many other products?

Oh...I know! You dislike the production of your Holy Magick Gas.

GreenMan wrote:
I'm not sure where you think Tim pointed out that my math and engineering skills are not up to snuff to build a workable power system.

He basically just pointed out the piddle power of your system that you don't seem to recognize.
GreenMan wrote:
I didn't see that, but since you are of that opinion, I'll just mention that the electrical design for that system is complete, the bill of material is complete, and the mechanical frame design is complete.

Everyone has a hobby.
GreenMan wrote:
The thing will look like an airplane, when deployed, with the solar panels laid out flat, from the center vertical transport position.

Why? Do you like the look of airplanes?
GreenMan wrote:
And the back of the panels will all the user to raise and lock it into an angle that favors the sun's position.

Doesn't need to look like an airplane to do that! I guess you figure it's 'futuristic' looking or something.
GreenMan wrote:
I told you that I am a Controls Engineer. If you knew what that was, you would know that not only do I write code for automated machinery, I also design the electrical part of the machine, completely, from the power coming in through the main breaker, to the motors turning on when you mash the go button. I've made a very comfortable living designing electrical control systems for the last 35 years of my career, thank you.

Yes. We all know you are an instrument technician at a mill.

Credentials don't mean anything on forums, dumbass. You and Wake have the same problem on this.


The Parrot Killer
10-11-2017 06:48
GreenMan
★★★☆☆
(621)
Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
Nah, I plan on using the Internet as long as it is available. And I'm not against those who provide the things that we use in our daily lives. My thing is that we have to wean ourselves off from it.

So the use of silicon furnaces, huge server farms, all that power to run the microwave towers and satellite communication systems, the use of arsenic, lead, tin, aluminum, and gold including all the mining and ore processing and smelting to obtain all these metals require, the transportation systems to bring all these materials together, the power the factories use, the transportation systems used to get final products to people who built the internet...all of that...doesn't bother you?


No, it doesn't bother me. I don't care how much power our society needs to function. We need to figure out a better way to generate that power. That's all.

Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
But there is nothing wrong with the electronic stuff itself.

Gee. It must be nice to stick your head in the sand and smugly feel you are completely isolated from all of that.


Oh, you are trying to shame me or something, for not being against electronics. Solly. I know we need the stuff we have. We just need to figure out a better way to generate the power it requires.

Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
It's the methods of generating power that is the problem.

What's wrong with oil, coal, methane, nuclear, hydroelectric, or any other method of generating electric power? Do you dislike large, fixed power stations that supply literally millions with convenient power? Do you dislike that we have it so available that we can produce the products and materials for the internet itself to exist, as well as many other products?

Oh...I know! You dislike the production of your Holy Magick Gas.


Yes, it is the Greenhouse Gas emissions that are causing the problem. It's only magick to Neanderthals though. Most Homo Sapiens understand the science behind it, or at least have enough sense to trust what our science community tells them.

Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
I'm not sure where you think Tim pointed out that my math and engineering skills are not up to snuff to build a workable power system.

He basically just pointed out the piddle power of your system that you don't seem to recognize.


Ah, yes, the piddle power of my system. Yup, I noticed that he pointed that out, as any good reviewer should have. And he is right, an electric stove top would kill it, lol. Fortunately, she is going with propane, and doesn't have to concern herself with that. She needs to have some kind of Utility Bill anyway, to prove that she isn't homeless.

But that has nothing to do with my ability to design a power station. It is "piddle power" as you call it by design. It will carry her Tiny House for 3 days without any sunlight, and she has an additional 3 days worth of backup battery power in her Tiny House itself, so she is all set. And besides that, she has a gasoline powered generator that will plug into the Solar Generator and charge the batteries as it provides power for the home.

And if that isn't enough, the system can be expanded to include another utility trailer, 1,000 lbs of batteries and 4 solar panels and a charger. It can be paralleled with the system to double the storage and charge capacity. But she won't need it. The calculations I ran on what I'm building say that it will completely charge the batteries while powering the home in a little less than 2 days, during the shortest days of the year.

And, I've already been shopping around for a Wind Turbine, and found that they are relatively inexpensive. So I will be adding one of those to the Solar Generator that I will building for myself, and I might add one to her's also.

And, down the road, I will build at least a 20KW Solar Generator, that will provide power for the entire property that I live on. And that puppy will handle the stove top and the oven going at the same time, and keep things good and cool with air conditioning. But that will be an expensive mama dog. So I'll build it a step at a time, starting with the Solar Panels and Inverter, and instead of Batteries just hook it to the Grid.
No Sun = Grid Power
Sun = Solar Power
Then start adding Batteries, so it's not a huge expense all at one time.


Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
I didn't see that, but since you are of that opinion, I'll just mention that the electrical design for that system is complete, the bill of material is complete, and the mechanical frame design is complete.

Everyone has a hobby.


True, some people's hobbie includes things like this, while other just include seeing how many different musical notes they can produce with their ass holes.

I'm well equipped to handle designing things like this, and you are well equipped to make musical notes.

Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
The thing will look like an airplane, when deployed, with the solar panels laid out flat, from the center vertical transport position.

Why? Do you like the look of airplanes?


Not necessarily. Well, I do like those swept back delta winged hell raisers though. But it won't look like one of those. But it will have the tongue sticking out the front, and four panels folded out flat, like wings. So I suppose it would be wise to anchor it, in case a strong wind comes up. It wouldn't fly, but it could fold the panels up.

Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
And the back of the panels will all the user to raise and lock it into an angle that favors the sun's position.

Doesn't need to look like an airplane to do that! I guess you figure it's 'futuristic' looking or something.


Nah, the little bit that I know about mechanical design for machinery layout is that form follows function. It ends up looking what it looks like because of it's function.

This thing travels down the road and is deployed in a few minutes, because that is part of its function. It's mobile, as opposed to most other Solar Generators that can't be moved easily. In fact, most homeowners wouldn't know where to begin, if they wanted to move their Solar Generator to another location. So they would have to hire someone to do it for them. Or maybe get hurt badly if they tried to just take things apart and move them piece by piece, which you might think you can do, but you can't, unless you know how.

The one I'm building will be safe enough, and easy enough for an old woman to move. I hope anyway, because that is its intended owner.

This thing will also be good for people who have Cabins in the woods, or Hunting Clubs that want to camp somewhere for a week or two. And of course, for anyone that wants to live off grid in a Tiny House, or Camper.

Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
I told you that I am a Controls Engineer. If you knew what that was, you would know that not only do I write code for automated machinery, I also design the electrical part of the machine, completely, from the power coming in through the main breaker, to the motors turning on when you mash the go button. I've made a very comfortable living designing electrical control systems for the last 35 years of my career, thank you.

Yes. We all know you are an instrument technician at a mill.

Credentials don't mean anything on forums, dumbass. You and Wake have the same problem on this.


No, I'm not an instrument technician at a mill. But I am very qualified to be one, if that is what I wanted to do.

The only reason I pointed out my credentials is because you said I wasn't capable of designing a power system like this. And I know they don't mean anything in here. If they did, then we would all walk in fear of Wake, who presents himself as if he is Chuck Norris or something, lol.

Of course, that's a slam on Chuck Norris, who is quite humble for who he is, and would never provoke a physical confrontation with anyone. Same goes for any martial arts expert. Funny how learning about how vulnerable the human body is makes one realize how vulnerable he himself is.


~*~ GreenMan ~*~
10-11-2017 09:09
Into the Night
★★★★★
(4319)
GreenMan wrote:
No, it doesn't bother me. I don't care how much power our society needs to function. We need to figure out a better way to generate that power. That's all.

Oh, you are trying to shame me or something, for not being against electronics. Solly. I know we need the stuff we have. We just need to figure out a better way to generate the power it requires.

And your way is to use this piddle power system, eh? I guess you really don't care how much power our society needs to function.

What is a 'better way to generate power'? Let's try a simplified scenario.

You will need to generate sufficient mobile power to move 20000 containers of cargo from Hong Kong, China to Los Angeles in the United States. After inspection, These 20000 containers need to be moved to Las Vegas, Phoenix, and Kansas City. These containers contain high quality case hardened steel parts for machinery.

You will need sufficient fixed power supplies to mine, process, and smelt that much iron from the ore, and sufficient power supplies to obtain and add the necessary carbon and chromium, the power to run all the machinery to lathe, mill, and broach the pieces into their required form, and sufficient power to perform the case hardening procedure.

You will also need sufficient fixed power supplies to run the factories using these parts, which also involve combining them with pistons, cases, and other parts. You sufficient fixed supplies to provide for the bauxite ore, processing, transportation, and smelting of the aluminum metal into 6061-T6 aluminum.

You get one month weeks to accomplish the shipping portion, not counting time delays due to inspections.

Now, do you think you could develop the necessary power for this out of solar and wind power alone?
GreenMan wrote:
Yes, it is the Greenhouse Gas emissions that are causing the problem. It's only magick to Neanderthals though.

No, there is no such thing as a 'greenhouse' gas. Carbon dioxide is incapable of warming the Earth. It is YOU that is trying to claim some magickal property to the stuff.
GreenMan wrote:
Most Homo Sapiens understand the science behind it, or at least have enough sense to trust what our science community tells them.

There is no science behind 'greenhouse' gas. Science isn't consensus either.
GreenMan wrote:
Ah, yes, the piddle power of my system. Yup, I noticed that he pointed that out, as any good reviewer should have. And he is right, an electric stove top would kill it, lol. Fortunately, she is going with propane, and doesn't have to concern herself with that. She needs to have some kind of Utility Bill anyway, to prove that she isn't homeless.

So you are going to connect to the grid after all. Hypocrite.
GreenMan wrote:
But that has nothing to do with my ability to design a power station. It is "piddle power" as you call it by design. It will carry her Tiny House for 3 days without any sunlight, and she has an additional 3 days worth of backup battery power in her Tiny House itself, so she is all set. And besides that, she has a gasoline powered generator that will plug into the Solar Generator and charge the batteries as it provides power for the home.

Wait...what? I though you said you were connecting her to the grid!
GreenMan wrote:
And if that isn't enough, the system can be expanded to include another utility trailer, 1,000 lbs of batteries and 4 solar panels and a charger. It can be paralleled with the system to double the storage and charge capacity. But she won't need it. The calculations I ran on what I'm building say that it will completely charge the batteries while powering the home in a little less than 2 days, during the shortest days of the year.

You seem to have a big problem with estimating power needs.
GreenMan wrote:
And, I've already been shopping around for a Wind Turbine, and found that they are relatively inexpensive. So I will be adding one of those to the Solar Generator that I will building for myself, and I might add one to her's also.
[quote]GreenMan wrote:
And, down the road, I will build at least a 20KW Solar Generator, that will provide power for the entire property that I live on. And that puppy will handle the stove top and the oven going at the same time, and keep things good and cool with air conditioning. But that will be an expensive mama dog. So I'll build it a step at a time, starting with the Solar Panels and Inverter, and instead of Batteries just hook it to the Grid.
No Sun = Grid Power
Sun = Solar Power
Then start adding Batteries, so it's not a huge expense all at one time.

Guess you're going to have trouble leaving the grid after all.
GreenMan wrote:
Not necessarily. Well, I do like those swept back delta winged hell raisers though. But it won't look like one of those. But it will have the tongue sticking out the front, and four panels folded out flat, like wings. So I suppose it would be wise to anchor it, in case a strong wind comes up. It wouldn't fly, but it could fold the panels up.

BECAUSE it's anchored it will tend to fold the 'wings' up. I suggest you anchor it real solidly. Insufficient anchoring will rip it apart pretty quickly.
GreenMan wrote:
Nah, the little bit that I know about mechanical design for machinery layout is that form follows function. It ends up looking what it looks like because of it's function.

It's an interesting setup, that's for sure.
GreenMan wrote:
This thing travels down the road and is deployed in a few minutes, because that is part of its function. It's mobile, as opposed to most other Solar Generators that can't be moved easily. In fact, most homeowners wouldn't know where to begin, if they wanted to move their Solar Generator to another location. So they would have to hire someone to do it for them. Or maybe get hurt badly if they tried to just take things apart and move them piece by piece, which you might think you can do, but you can't, unless you know how.

Don't forget the wiring. That stuff's dangerous you know. You ARE playing around with stuff that could really hurt you.
GreenMan wrote:
The one I'm building will be safe enough, and easy enough for an old woman to move. I hope anyway, because that is its intended owner.

I don't think you've thought this through.
GreenMan wrote:
No, I'm not an instrument technician at a mill. But I am very qualified to be one, if that is what I wanted to do.

Again, credentials mean nothing on forums.
GreenMan wrote:
The only reason I pointed out my credentials is because you said I wasn't capable of designing a power system like this.

You aren't. You are having trouble with required loadings, wattages, load balancing, voltage, and current.
GreenMan wrote:
And I know they don't mean anything in here. If they did, then we would all walk in fear of Wake, who presents himself as if he is Chuck Norris or something, lol.

Wake has never presented himself as Chuck Norris.

He talks big, but you and I both know his threat is an empty one.


The Parrot Killer
10-11-2017 09:39
Tim the plumber
★★★☆☆
(956)
On the other side of mad ideas to do with ecco power and all;

I am about to go to a meeting to try to advance my ducted vertical axis wind power system. A system of wind turbine which, if it works, will cut power production costs to a point where fossil fuel power will stand idle for 90%+ of the year.

It will produce structures as big as is possible for humanity to build.... km high.....

Wish me luck.
11-11-2017 21:57
GreenMan
★★★☆☆
(621)
Tim the plumber wrote:
On the other side of mad ideas to do with ecco power and all;

I am about to go to a meeting to try to advance my ducted vertical axis wind power system. A system of wind turbine which, if it works, will cut power production costs to a point where fossil fuel power will stand idle for 90%+ of the year.

It will produce structures as big as is possible for humanity to build.... km high.....

Wish me luck.


Yeah, good luck with that Tim. Those things look pretty cool. All we really have to do is start putting them everywhere. Just a matter of money, really.


~*~ GreenMan ~*~
11-11-2017 22:12
GreenMan
★★★☆☆
(621)
Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
No, it doesn't bother me. I don't care how much power our society needs to function. We need to figure out a better way to generate that power. That's all.

Oh, you are trying to shame me or something, for not being against electronics. Solly. I know we need the stuff we have. We just need to figure out a better way to generate the power it requires.

And your way is to use this piddle power system, eh? I guess you really don't care how much power our society needs to function.

What is a 'better way to generate power'? Let's try a simplified scenario.

You will need to generate sufficient mobile power to move 20000 containers of cargo from Hong Kong, China to Los Angeles in the United States. After inspection, These 20000 containers need to be moved to Las Vegas, Phoenix, and Kansas City. These containers contain high quality case hardened steel parts for machinery.

You will need sufficient fixed power supplies to mine, process, and smelt that much iron from the ore, and sufficient power supplies to obtain and add the necessary carbon and chromium, the power to run all the machinery to lathe, mill, and broach the pieces into their required form, and sufficient power to perform the case hardening procedure.

You will also need sufficient fixed power supplies to run the factories using these parts, which also involve combining them with pistons, cases, and other parts. You sufficient fixed supplies to provide for the bauxite ore, processing, transportation, and smelting of the aluminum metal into 6061-T6 aluminum.

You get one month weeks to accomplish the shipping portion, not counting time delays due to inspections.

Now, do you think you could develop the necessary power for this out of solar and wind power alone?
GreenMan wrote:
Yes, it is the Greenhouse Gas emissions that are causing the problem. It's only magick to Neanderthals though.

No, there is no such thing as a 'greenhouse' gas. Carbon dioxide is incapable of warming the Earth. It is YOU that is trying to claim some magickal property to the stuff.
GreenMan wrote:
Most Homo Sapiens understand the science behind it, or at least have enough sense to trust what our science community tells them.

There is no science behind 'greenhouse' gas. Science isn't consensus either.
GreenMan wrote:
Ah, yes, the piddle power of my system. Yup, I noticed that he pointed that out, as any good reviewer should have. And he is right, an electric stove top would kill it, lol. Fortunately, she is going with propane, and doesn't have to concern herself with that. She needs to have some kind of Utility Bill anyway, to prove that she isn't homeless.

So you are going to connect to the grid after all. Hypocrite.
GreenMan wrote:
But that has nothing to do with my ability to design a power station. It is "piddle power" as you call it by design. It will carry her Tiny House for 3 days without any sunlight, and she has an additional 3 days worth of backup battery power in her Tiny House itself, so she is all set. And besides that, she has a gasoline powered generator that will plug into the Solar Generator and charge the batteries as it provides power for the home.

Wait...what? I though you said you were connecting her to the grid!
GreenMan wrote:
And if that isn't enough, the system can be expanded to include another utility trailer, 1,000 lbs of batteries and 4 solar panels and a charger. It can be paralleled with the system to double the storage and charge capacity. But she won't need it. The calculations I ran on what I'm building say that it will completely charge the batteries while powering the home in a little less than 2 days, during the shortest days of the year.

You seem to have a big problem with estimating power needs.
GreenMan wrote:
And, I've already been shopping around for a Wind Turbine, and found that they are relatively inexpensive. So I will be adding one of those to the Solar Generator that I will building for myself, and I might add one to her's also.
[quote]GreenMan wrote:
And, down the road, I will build at least a 20KW Solar Generator, that will provide power for the entire property that I live on. And that puppy will handle the stove top and the oven going at the same time, and keep things good and cool with air conditioning. But that will be an expensive mama dog. So I'll build it a step at a time, starting with the Solar Panels and Inverter, and instead of Batteries just hook it to the Grid.
No Sun = Grid Power
Sun = Solar Power
Then start adding Batteries, so it's not a huge expense all at one time.

Guess you're going to have trouble leaving the grid after all.
GreenMan wrote:
Not necessarily. Well, I do like those swept back delta winged hell raisers though. But it won't look like one of those. But it will have the tongue sticking out the front, and four panels folded out flat, like wings. So I suppose it would be wise to anchor it, in case a strong wind comes up. It wouldn't fly, but it could fold the panels up.

BECAUSE it's anchored it will tend to fold the 'wings' up. I suggest you anchor it real solidly. Insufficient anchoring will rip it apart pretty quickly.
GreenMan wrote:
Nah, the little bit that I know about mechanical design for machinery layout is that form follows function. It ends up looking what it looks like because of it's function.

It's an interesting setup, that's for sure.
GreenMan wrote:
This thing travels down the road and is deployed in a few minutes, because that is part of its function. It's mobile, as opposed to most other Solar Generators that can't be moved easily. In fact, most homeowners wouldn't know where to begin, if they wanted to move their Solar Generator to another location. So they would have to hire someone to do it for them. Or maybe get hurt badly if they tried to just take things apart and move them piece by piece, which you might think you can do, but you can't, unless you know how.

Don't forget the wiring. That stuff's dangerous you know. You ARE playing around with stuff that could really hurt you.
GreenMan wrote:
The one I'm building will be safe enough, and easy enough for an old woman to move. I hope anyway, because that is its intended owner.

I don't think you've thought this through.
GreenMan wrote:
No, I'm not an instrument technician at a mill. But I am very qualified to be one, if that is what I wanted to do.

Again, credentials mean nothing on forums.
GreenMan wrote:
The only reason I pointed out my credentials is because you said I wasn't capable of designing a power system like this.

You aren't. You are having trouble with required loadings, wattages, load balancing, voltage, and current.
GreenMan wrote:
And I know they don't mean anything in here. If they did, then we would all walk in fear of Wake, who presents himself as if he is Chuck Norris or something, lol.

Wake has never presented himself as Chuck Norris.

He talks big, but you and I both know his threat is an empty one.


I'm starting to see your major issue, Parrot. You are overwhelmed. Well, that is one of your major issues, anyway. You have two that are glaring. Either one of them would prevent a person from understanding, and you have them both.

Ok, you are overwhelmed when you try to work out how we could possibly get by without using oil. You know that it takes fuel to move things around. You know how much electricity we need in a day to run all these factories that we need to make all the neat stuff we use. You know that we can't just pull the plug, so to speak. We have to continue doing what we are doing.

When you are overwhelmed with problems, you have to decide which one you are going to focus on. And that is usually the one that keeps pissing you off. So you deal with it, and forget about everything else that is pissing you off. Then, when you get that problem solved, you can reach out and grab that next thing that is pissing you off, and deal with it. Then grab another. After a while, you realize that nothing is pissing you off anymore, and you can go get laid.

Uh, we gonna deal with this problem that way. Right now, I need power for my home. I need to decide, do I go conventional grid, or do I take the more expensive plunge and go Solar? I take the more expensive route, because they are eventually going to tax the hell out of the grid, and I'm not going to wait till then to try and jump ship. So I calculated how much power my home will require, and I designed a Solar Generator to meet those needs. Unfortunately, I don't have enough resources for more battery storage, but can add that later. And I can also add more Solar Panels later as well.

And it's not hypocritical to use the grid as a person is weaning himself off the grid. We don't have to go crazy and do stupid shit, just to suit ****s like you. Even if you are just getting 50% of your power from the sun, you are doing some good. And you are doing a lot better than those who will do nothing.


~*~ GreenMan ~*~
12-11-2017 18:12
Into the Night
★★★★★
(4319)
GreenMan wrote:
I'm starting to see your major issue, Parrot. You are overwhelmed. Well, that is one of your major issues, anyway. You have two that are glaring. Either one of them would prevent a person from understanding, and you have them both.

Don't try psychobabble. You have no clue.
GreenMan wrote:
Ok, you are overwhelmed when you try to work out how we could possibly get by without using oil.

There is no need to get by without oil. We've used oil and oil products almost as long as we've had fire. I see no reason to give it up to suit ecowacks like you.
GreenMan wrote:
You know that it takes fuel to move things around.

Brilliant observation.
GreenMan wrote:
You know how much electricity we need in a day to run all these factories that we need to make all the neat stuff we use.

Actually, we don't.
GreenMan wrote:
You know that we can't just pull the plug, so to speak.

No reason to.
GreenMan wrote:
We have to continue doing what we are doing.

Why not?
GreenMan wrote:
Uh, we gonna deal with this problem that way. Right now, I need power for my home. I need to decide, do I go conventional grid, or do I take the more expensive plunge and go Solar? I take the more expensive route, because they are eventually going to tax the hell out of the grid, and I'm not going to wait till then to try and jump ship. So I calculated how much power my home will require, and I designed a Solar Generator to meet those needs. Unfortunately, I don't have enough resources for more battery storage, but can add that later. And I can also add more Solar Panels later as well.

Enjoy your bunker.
GreenMan wrote:
And it's not hypocritical to use the grid as a person is weaning himself off the grid.

Yes it is.
GreenMan wrote:
We don't have to go crazy and do stupid shit, just to suit ****s like you. Even if you are just getting 50% of your power from the sun, you are doing some good. And you are doing a lot better than those who will do nothing.

If you want to get along with so little power, have fun. Your smug little 'achievement' still comes from all that factories and power sources that you despise.

There really is no reason to despise it.


The Parrot Killer
13-11-2017 08:07
GreenMan
★★★☆☆
(621)
Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
I'm starting to see your major issue, Parrot. You are overwhelmed. Well, that is one of your major issues, anyway. You have two that are glaring. Either one of them would prevent a person from understanding, and you have them both.

Don't try psychobabble. You have no clue.
GreenMan wrote:
Ok, you are overwhelmed when you try to work out how we could possibly get by without using oil.

There is no need to get by without oil. We've used oil and oil products almost as long as we've had fire. I see no reason to give it up to suit ecowacks like you.
GreenMan wrote:
You know that it takes fuel to move things around.

Brilliant observation.
GreenMan wrote:
You know how much electricity we need in a day to run all these factories that we need to make all the neat stuff we use.

Actually, we don't.
GreenMan wrote:
You know that we can't just pull the plug, so to speak.

No reason to.
GreenMan wrote:
We have to continue doing what we are doing.

Why not?
GreenMan wrote:
Uh, we gonna deal with this problem that way. Right now, I need power for my home. I need to decide, do I go conventional grid, or do I take the more expensive plunge and go Solar? I take the more expensive route, because they are eventually going to tax the hell out of the grid, and I'm not going to wait till then to try and jump ship. So I calculated how much power my home will require, and I designed a Solar Generator to meet those needs. Unfortunately, I don't have enough resources for more battery storage, but can add that later. And I can also add more Solar Panels later as well.

Enjoy your bunker.
GreenMan wrote:
And it's not hypocritical to use the grid as a person is weaning himself off the grid.

Yes it is.
GreenMan wrote:
We don't have to go crazy and do stupid shit, just to suit ****s like you. Even if you are just getting 50% of your power from the sun, you are doing some good. And you are doing a lot better than those who will do nothing.

If you want to get along with so little power, have fun. Your smug little 'achievement' still comes from all that factories and power sources that you despise.

There really is no reason to despise it.


I don't despise technology, fruit loop. And I don't despise the power sources we currently use to fuel our economy. I just know that burning things makes CO2, and CO2 makes our planet warm up, so we need to figure out another way to make our energy. Simple.

And no, people who want to reduce their Carbon Footprint do not have to do it all at once, to not be a hypocrite. Saying that it is hypocritical is just more reason for people to not trust you.


~*~ GreenMan ~*~
13-11-2017 19:23
Into the Night
★★★★★
(4319)
GreenMan wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
I'm starting to see your major issue, Parrot. You are overwhelmed. Well, that is one of your major issues, anyway. You have two that are glaring. Either one of them would prevent a person from understanding, and you have them both.

Don't try psychobabble. You have no clue.
GreenMan wrote:
Ok, you are overwhelmed when you try to work out how we could possibly get by without using oil.

There is no need to get by without oil. We've used oil and oil products almost as long as we've had fire. I see no reason to give it up to suit ecowacks like you.
GreenMan wrote:
You know that it takes fuel to move things around.

Brilliant observation.
GreenMan wrote:
You know how much electricity we need in a day to run all these factories that we need to make all the neat stuff we use.

Actually, we don't.
GreenMan wrote:
You know that we can't just pull the plug, so to speak.

No reason to.
GreenMan wrote:
We have to continue doing what we are doing.

Why not?
GreenMan wrote:
Uh, we gonna deal with this problem that way. Right now, I need power for my home. I need to decide, do I go conventional grid, or do I take the more expensive plunge and go Solar? I take the more expensive route, because they are eventually going to tax the hell out of the grid, and I'm not going to wait till then to try and jump ship. So I calculated how much power my home will require, and I designed a Solar Generator to meet those needs. Unfortunately, I don't have enough resources for more battery storage, but can add that later. And I can also add more Solar Panels later as well.

Enjoy your bunker.
GreenMan wrote:
And it's not hypocritical to use the grid as a person is weaning himself off the grid.

Yes it is.
GreenMan wrote:
We don't have to go crazy and do stupid shit, just to suit ****s like you. Even if you are just getting 50% of your power from the sun, you are doing some good. And you are doing a lot better than those who will do nothing.

If you want to get along with so little power, have fun. Your smug little 'achievement' still comes from all that factories and power sources that you despise.

There really is no reason to despise it.


I don't despise technology, fruit loop.

Contextomy.
GreenMan wrote:
And I don't despise the power sources we currently use to fuel our economy.

Yes you do, liar.
GreenMan wrote:
I just know that burning things makes CO2, and CO2 makes our planet warm up, so we need to figure out another way to make our energy. Simple.

CO2 is incapable of warming the planet. It is not possible to determine the temperature of the planet.
GreenMan wrote:
And no, people who want to reduce their Carbon Footprint do not have to do it all at once, to not be a hypocrite.

S'all feel good stuff, eh?
GreenMan wrote:
Saying that it is hypocritical is just more reason for people to not trust you.

I'm not asking for your trust, dumbass.


The Parrot Killer
13-11-2017 20:14
litesong
★★★★☆
(1861)
"old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner badnight" bluffed: I'm not asking for your trust, dumbass.

"old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner badnight" will never get the word, "trust" into its name. But "dumbass" is a candidate word to be inserted in its name.
14-11-2017 07:58
GreenMan
★★★☆☆
(621)
Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
I'm starting to see your major issue, Parrot. You are overwhelmed. Well, that is one of your major issues, anyway. You have two that are glaring. Either one of them would prevent a person from understanding, and you have them both.

Don't try psychobabble. You have no clue.
GreenMan wrote:
Ok, you are overwhelmed when you try to work out how we could possibly get by without using oil.

There is no need to get by without oil. We've used oil and oil products almost as long as we've had fire. I see no reason to give it up to suit ecowacks like you.
GreenMan wrote:
You know that it takes fuel to move things around.

Brilliant observation.
GreenMan wrote:
You know how much electricity we need in a day to run all these factories that we need to make all the neat stuff we use.

Actually, we don't.
GreenMan wrote:
You know that we can't just pull the plug, so to speak.

No reason to.
GreenMan wrote:
We have to continue doing what we are doing.

Why not?
GreenMan wrote:
Uh, we gonna deal with this problem that way. Right now, I need power for my home. I need to decide, do I go conventional grid, or do I take the more expensive plunge and go Solar? I take the more expensive route, because they are eventually going to tax the hell out of the grid, and I'm not going to wait till then to try and jump ship. So I calculated how much power my home will require, and I designed a Solar Generator to meet those needs. Unfortunately, I don't have enough resources for more battery storage, but can add that later. And I can also add more Solar Panels later as well.

Enjoy your bunker.
GreenMan wrote:
And it's not hypocritical to use the grid as a person is weaning himself off the grid.

Yes it is.
GreenMan wrote:
We don't have to go crazy and do stupid shit, just to suit ****s like you. Even if you are just getting 50% of your power from the sun, you are doing some good. And you are doing a lot better than those who will do nothing.

If you want to get along with so little power, have fun. Your smug little 'achievement' still comes from all that factories and power sources that you despise.

There really is no reason to despise it.


I don't despise technology, fruit loop.

Contextomy.
GreenMan wrote:
And I don't despise the power sources we currently use to fuel our economy.

Yes you do, liar.
GreenMan wrote:
I just know that burning things makes CO2, and CO2 makes our planet warm up, so we need to figure out another way to make our energy. Simple.

CO2 is incapable of warming the planet. It is not possible to determine the temperature of the planet.
GreenMan wrote:
And no, people who want to reduce their Carbon Footprint do not have to do it all at once, to not be a hypocrite.

S'all feel good stuff, eh?
GreenMan wrote:
Saying that it is hypocritical is just more reason for people to not trust you.

I'm not asking for your trust, dumbass.


You are a totally screwed up individual Parrot.

Did you know that a man who has no integrity has nothing?

Parrot, if people realize that you don't care if they trust you or not, then why should they bother to hear your side of anything? If you don't care about other people's trust, then you obviously don't care about being truthful. They go hand in hand.

In other words, just by saying that you are not asking for my, or anyone else's trust, that you are not trustworthy.

And no, it's not all feel good stuff. Most people do need direction, and they are being given none. We all know that we have to do something, but do what? No one is leading in that area. It seems as though there has been a movement for a few decades now of people who want to just get off grid, but there is no one leading that effort. So when people, like me, decide that they want to do what they can, they pretty much have to invent how, for themselves.

And it is freaking expensive to take that plunge. Everybody doesn't have $80,000 just just throw down on a Solar Generator that will run their entire house, and live through a week long snow storm. But most of that cost can be spread out over time, if they implement their Solar Generator's storage capacity over time. To begin with, you can cut out a lot of cost by using just a small fraction of the batteries you need to last a week without the sun. You can buy just enough to make it through a normal night, and if they go dead, then you can draw power from the grid. Over time, you can add more and more batteries, until you can ride out any storm, without the grid.

You know, this problem didn't just materialize instantly. And the solution to it is not going to just materialize instantly either. It will take quite a while to decouple from Greenhouse producing fuels, and it won't happen on its own. Like a long journey, it begins by taking steps in the right direction.

You apparently are of the opinion that people have to dispise something, before they rid themselves of it. No, Parrot, I don't have to dispise something just because I know that it is harmful. I just need to figure out what to do about not using it myself, so that I am doing no harm.

And when I am faced with having to do something that I don't really want to do [what I want to do is retire, and die on the river, after catching all the fish], is look at it as a worthwhile adventure. And that is what I look at the rest of my life on earth as. It's an adventure. And I have decided to not even worry about my retirement. Instead, what I am doing is providing a way to live freely. Which, that should make my retirement a lot easier to afford.

At least I won't be worried about no stinking Carbon Tax.


~*~ GreenMan ~*~
14-11-2017 18:17
Into the Night
★★★★★
(4319)
GreenMan wrote:
You are a totally screwed up individual Parrot.

I already know you think that. You don't have to reiterate that.
GreenMan wrote:
Did you know that a man who has no integrity has nothing?

Did you know that on a forum it doesn't matter?
GreenMan wrote:
Parrot, if people realize that you don't care if they trust you or not, then why should they bother to hear your side of anything?

Because to do otherwise is to be a Bulverist. Judge the argument, not the one making it. Respond to the argument, not spend your time making personal insults against the one making it.
GreenMan wrote:
If you don't care about other people's trust, then you obviously don't care about being truthful. They go hand in hand.

Considering that I run a business successfully, you are obviously just talking through your hat.
GreenMan wrote:
In other words, just by saying that you are not asking for my, or anyone else's trust, that you are not trustworthy.

Argument of ignorance coupled with a compositional error.
GreenMan wrote:
And no, it's not all feel good stuff.

You're right. You are arguing a fallacy here. Forums don't demand or need trust. Judge and respond to the argument, not to the individual making it.
GreenMan wrote:
Most people do need direction,

Don't think so. People are intelligent. They are smart enough to run their own lives. You have no authority to run anyone's life but your own.
GreenMan wrote:
and they are being given none.

They don't need any. They certainly don't need some 'elite' telling them what to do. You are not a dictator.
GreenMan wrote:
We all know that we have to do something,

Nothing needs to be done about the Church of Global Warming, except to keep it from becoming a State religion, and to keep tinpot dictators like you out of other people's lives.
GreenMan wrote:
but do what?

Nothing needs to be done. Go enjoy your bunker.
GreenMan wrote:
No one is leading in that area.

No one needs to.
GreenMan wrote:
It seems as though there has been a movement for a few decades now of people who want to just get off grid,

A movement? No, there have always been Luddites that turn away from society and become hermits, even groups of hermits. Nothing new to see here.
GreenMan wrote:
but there is no one leading that effort.

Have you tried your local survivalist tradeshows?
GreenMan wrote:
So when people, like me, decide that they want to do what they can, they pretty much have to invent how, for themselves.

Oh, the folks at your local survivalist tradeshow have all the solutions you need. They'll happily take your money and sell you the kind of crap you want.
GreenMan wrote:
And it is freaking expensive to take that plunge.

Yes it is. It's not a cheap hobby to live in fear.
GreenMan wrote:
Everybody doesn't have $80,000 just just throw down on a Solar Generator that will run their entire house, and live through a week long snow storm.

I've lived without power for over a week (we lost our high tension system in the area due to an ice storm). That same storm would decimate your personal power supply system. You would have to rebuild it.
GreenMan wrote:
But most of that cost can be spread out over time,

Until you need to rebuilt it due to storm damage.
GreenMan wrote:
if they implement their Solar Generator's storage capacity over time.

Batteries age. By the time you buy the last batteries, the first ones will have to be replaced. You reach a point of no return there. Don't forget battery disposal costs.
GreenMan wrote:
To begin with, you can cut out a lot of cost by using just a small fraction of the batteries you need to last a week without the sun.

That doesn't work. See above.
GreenMan wrote:
You can buy just enough to make it through a normal night, and if they go dead, then you can draw power from the grid.

If you're going to 'cut the wire', do it cold turkey. You are hooked, aren't you?

At least that's what you keep saying to anyone who wants to remain on the grid.
GreenMan wrote:
Over time, you can add more and more batteries, until you can ride out any storm, without the grid.

Won't work. Batteries age. You will be replacing batteries as fast as you expand your system.
GreenMan wrote:
You know, this problem didn't just materialize instantly.

It's not a problem. It's a hobby.
GreenMan wrote:
And the solution to it is not going to just materialize instantly either.

It's not a solution. It's a hobby.
GreenMan wrote:
It will take quite a while to decouple from Greenhouse producing fuels,

There are no greenhouse producing fuels. Carbon dioxide is not capable of warming the Earth. 0.04% of the atmosphere doesn't mean much except to restrict plant growth.
GreenMan wrote:
and it won't happen on its own.

It won't happen. Your little hobby won't make a hill of beans worth of difference. Your smug lifestyle choice still depends on a whole network of suppliers to make it work and to keep it going.
GreenMan wrote:
Like a long journey, it begins by taking steps in the right direction.

Your hobby is not the right direction. If you want to live in your bunker and feel you've 'accomplished' something, fine. But realize that your smug attitude of your 'success' is based on a hollow success.
GreenMan wrote:
You apparently are of the opinion that people have to dispise something,

They generally do. Perhaps you haven't noticed. Everyone has their 'devils' they avoid. Even you. I am your devil. I condemn the Church of Global Warming utterly.
GreenMan wrote:
before they rid themselves of it.

People who want to rid themselves of something generally despise it or at least dislike it first.
GreenMan wrote:
No, Parrot, I don't have to dispise something just because I know that it is harmful.

Compositional error.
GreenMan wrote:
I just need to figure out what to do about not using it myself, so that I am doing no harm.

Not doing harm? What about all the CO2 you are producing by making these arguments?
GreenMan wrote:
And when I am faced with having to do something that I don't really want to do [what I want to do is retire, and die on the river, after catching all the fish], is look at it as a worthwhile adventure.

So you want to make a river sterile of fish, then die. What an outlook.
GreenMan wrote:
And that is what I look at the rest of my life on earth as. It's an adventure.

Making a river sterile of fish is an adventure? I can think of more productive things to do.
GreenMan wrote:
And I have decided to not even worry about my retirement.

You are obviously VERY worried about your retirement.
GreenMan wrote:
Instead, what I am doing is providing a way to live freely. Which, that should make my retirement a lot easier to afford.

Wait...what?? You were just complaining how expensive living off the grid is!

Welcome to your new paradox.

GreenMan wrote:
At least I won't be worried about no stinking Carbon Tax.

What about the costs of shipping all your supplies in? Guess you don't mind seeing THAT go up!


The Parrot Killer
14-11-2017 19:42
GasGuzzler
★★★☆☆
(791)
GreenMan wrote:
And no, people who want to reduce their Carbon Footprint do not have to do it all at once, to not be a hypocrite.


Just been so stinkin busy lately, and still am, but I gotta throw a couple shots here.

Greenstuff has said in other threads and posts...

1. I drive a Jeep. I like them.
2. I make about $3,000 a week.
3. Burning our cheap fuels is creating CO2 and warming the planet.
4. It's not your fault Gassy, but you gotta fix it.

So, I drive a big truck that is no doubt a gas guzzler. It is required for the work I perform. I drag a large trailer most days in the summer and winter, and when it snows, this GasGuzzler is pushing it. Greenstuff, on the other hand, drives a Jeep to work. He apparently uses it for transportation and personal pleasure use. Now, he has made it clear that I am of the population that must fix the problem. He has also made it clear that he is not a hypocrite. He doesn't have to get off the grid today, as long as he is making strides to get there, he's all innocent and good. So, here I am wondering why he can make 3k a week but doesn't drive a Prius. Unless you live in San Diego or New York, 12k a month is a fairly sporty paycheck. Don't tell me you can't afford to drive something a little more...shall we say...CO2 efficient? This is something you could do today! Should have done it a long time ago.
Greenthing, how is this not the definition of hypocrite? It's almost a little Algoresk.

Edited on 14-11-2017 19:46
14-11-2017 20:47
James_
★★★☆☆
(637)
GasGuzzler wrote:
GreenMan wrote:
And no, people who want to reduce their Carbon Footprint do not have to do it all at once, to not be a hypocrite.


Just been so stinkin busy lately, and still am, but I gotta throw a couple shots here.

Greenstuff has said in other threads and posts...

1. I drive a Jeep. I like them.
2. I make about $3,000 a week.
3. Burning our cheap fuels is creating CO2 and warming the planet.
4. It's not your fault Gassy, but you gotta fix it.

So, I drive a big truck that is no doubt a gas guzzler. It is required for the work I perform. I drag a large trailer most days in the summer and winter, and when it snows, this GasGuzzler is pushing it. Greenstuff, on the other hand, drives a Jeep to work. He apparently uses it for transportation and personal pleasure use. Now, he has made it clear that I am of the population that must fix the problem. He has also made it clear that he is not a hypocrite. He doesn't have to get off the grid today, as long as he is making strides to get there, he's all innocent and good. So, here I am wondering why he can make 3k a week but doesn't drive a Prius. Unless you live in San Diego or New York, 12k a month is a fairly sporty paycheck. Don't tell me you can't afford to drive something a little more...shall we say...CO2 efficient? This is something you could do today! Should have done it a long time ago.
Greenthing, how is this not the definition of hypocrite? It's almost a little Algoresk.


gasguzzler,
Any more it might be more about hydrocarbons than co2. Have you heard any scientist lately (the last few years or so) actually say that co2 is causing climate change ? I think it's the media that is saying co2 and not scientists.
Watch this movie in support of global warming/climate change and if you can, show me where a scientist actually states that co2 is causing climate change and not that it's 95% likely that AGW (man's effect).
From what I've seen they'll say
and co2 levels have risen
this much but are not saying because co2 levels rose this much our atmosphere warmed this much as a result. If the media and people make an incorrect inference, it is not the scientists. This is because they are making information known about climate change and the media and people are reading into it what they want to see.

http://bbcbentomatics.lunchbox.pbs.org/climate-change-numbers/
Edited on 14-11-2017 20:48
14-11-2017 20:56
James_
★★★☆☆
(637)
Anyone can read section 2.3.1 which starts on pg. 137 https://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-chapter2.pdf.
The values they give CO2 for rf which is radiative forcing barely goes above 2 Wm^2. On a warm day the Wm^2 can be over 1,000 and on a cooler day 500 Wm^2.
A guy named Claude Lorius made a documentary that promoted co2 as causing climate change. Then former V.P. Al Gore jumped on board. The ice core data Dr. Lorius used only went back a couple hundred thousand years at most. It has been after more research that scientists started saying that co2 levels rose about 800 years after our planet started warming during the last ice age. And it is ice core research that has played an important role in climate change arguments since the 1960's and Dr. Lorius.
The link is to a calculator, https://barani.biz/apps/solar/
basically, 6 KwH/day = 250 Wm^2. If that's right then co2's impact in Wm^2 is minimal.
Edited on 14-11-2017 21:14
14-11-2017 21:13
GasGuzzler
★★★☆☆
(791)
James,
You've missed the point a little bit.
ITN said Greensomething was a hypocrite. He said no I'm not. I said yes you are and here's why.

To your suggestion of hydrocarbon...here's my thoughts.

1. Pollution will kill us all. Stop burning "fossil fuels".
2. Acid rain will kill us all. Stop burning "fossil fuels".
3. Global warming will kill us all. Stop burning "fossil fuels".
4. Climate change (trying a new name) will kill us all. Stop burning "fossil fuels".
5. Methane will kill us all. Stop burning "fossil fuels".
6. Now you suggest some hydrocarbon problem? Stop burning "fossil fuels"?

You see how the "big problem" changes but the solution is always the same? Why? Who is it that is "discovering" these problems and why?
14-11-2017 21:20
James_
★★★☆☆
(637)
GasGuzzler wrote:
James,
You've missed the point a little bit.
ITN said Greensomething was a hypocrite. He said no I'm not. I said yes you are and here's why.

To your suggestion of hydrocarbon...here's my thoughts.

1. Pollution will kill us all. Stop burning "fossil fuels".
2. Acid rain will kill us all. Stop burning "fossil fuels".
3. Global warming will kill us all. Stop burning "fossil fuels".
4. Climate change (trying a new name) will kill us all. Stop burning "fossil fuels".
5. Methane will kill us all. Stop burning "fossil fuels".
6. Now you suggest some hydrocarbon problem? Stop burning "fossil fuels"?

You see how the "big problem" changes but the solution is always the same? Why? Who is it that is "discovering" these problems and why?


gasguzzler,
Hope you don't mind my having a bit of fun with this.
Trains can move a ton of freight over 470 miles on a single gallon of fuel.
https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/the-csx-advantage/fuel-efficiency/?mobileFormat=true
14-11-2017 21:46
GasGuzzler
★★★☆☆
(791)
I love outstanding fuel efficiency, and trains are definitely that. It only means less demand for a great product, which drive prices lower and Greendude crazy.


Hey Greenfriek, how many solar panels does it take to move a ton of freight 400 miles? Hee hee hee.
15-11-2017 02:04
litesong
★★★★☆
(1861)
"old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner & many time threatener gazzzed & guzzzling" gushed:....ton of freight....
How much did it cost Peabody fer ah ton o' coal, they's ship off ta communist china (always small letters), who build an ever enlarging & increasing quality military, so's someday, day ken dictate da world's future?
Edited on 15-11-2017 02:08
16-11-2017 11:16
GreenMan
★★★☆☆
(621)
GasGuzzler wrote:
I love outstanding fuel efficiency, and trains are definitely that. It only means less demand for a great product, which drive prices lower and Greendude crazy.


Hey Greenfriek, how many solar panels does it take to move a ton of freight 400 miles? Hee hee hee.


Beats the dog shit right out of me, Gassy. Not many though, since a gallon of gas isn't that much energy. I'm not going to bother looking up how much energy is in a gallon of fuel, just to figure it out though. It would be easier to just guess at it, then let Wake figure it out. And that's only if I gave a shit. I don't.

The only reason you bring it up is because you are trying to show that no matter what anyone does, we are still going to need to use oil for something somewhere.

Agreed. And that is no reason to do nothing to wean ourselves off of it as much as we possibly can.

By the way, have you ever heard of electric trains? All they gotta do is build a huge battery [enough to run 1,000,000 vibrators] and pull it behind the locomotive, like they used to do wood for their boiler. You could charge that with solar. Then it wouldn't take any gas to move that big train. In fact, why not put solar panels on the roofs of the train cars, and let it charge it's own battery as it is going down the track?

That might not work out so well on coal cars, since they don't have roofs, but you know what, we wouldn't need as much coal anymore, so coal might not be as big a mover as it used to be.

I think there is a solution to every problem, Gassy. We just have to keep looking for what the best solution is, and make a change.

Ignoring it, won't make it go away.


~*~ GreenMan ~*~
16-11-2017 15:46
GasGuzzler
★★★☆☆
(791)
Greengas wrote:Beats the dog shit right out of me, Gassy. Not many though, since a gallon of gas isn't that much energy.


Don't have time to go into all of your books you wrote last night....gotta go break into some foreclosures and make some money today...but this statement is pretty unbelievable!

My gas milelage is shitty at best...5.7 Hemi 3/4 ton truck. With my trailer I'm typically 12,000 lb. Now one gallon that I can hold in my hand will push that truck up a 9% grade 6-7 miles! How is that "not a lot of energy"???




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