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PBI - a new way to moderate Climate-debate.com without traditional moderators


PBI - a new way to moderate Climate-debate.com without traditional moderators03-11-2015 17:16
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
Okay, so we all just barely survived the Sharing Ideas (SI) experiment at moderating this website, and we learned the following "problem lessons" from it:

1. Some members are opposed to any third-party (traditional) moderation where their posts can be edited or deleted by someone else.

2. Some members will extract quotes without the author's permission from a moderated sub-forum so as to be able to avoid traditional moderation.

I've given this a lot of thought, and I'd like to share an idea I have which could allow each individual to have some control over the new threads they create, without traditional moderation. I call this Posting By Invitation (PBI).

The idea here is that whenever you start a new thread, you will have a choice of whether you want to make it open to everyone, or if you prefer to choose who participates in your thread's conversation. In other words, each and every time you start a new thread, you can choose whether or not you invite other's over to talk about your new topic by saying:

1. Hey everyone, come on over to my new thread and let's talk about...., thereby leaving the thread OPEN for everyone and anyone to join in (i.e. - this is how all threads currently operate here), or...

2. Hi, I'm starting a new conversation which I'd like to discuss with the following people (i.e. - a PBI thread).

You would make this decision right when you were writing your first post in the new thread, and to avoid any censorship:

1. If you mark the initiating post of a new thread as OPEN, you cannot change it to PBI at a later date.

2. If you mark the initiating post of a new thread as PBI, you can add new participants both at the beginning of the new thread and as it evolves (see automated PM idea below).

3. If you mark the initiating post of a new thread as PBI, you cannot remove anyone you have already added to the participant list.

4. If you mark the initiating post of a new thread as PBI, you can, at a later date, change it to OPEN, but you cannot change it back to PBI again (see automated PM idea below).

This format does not give anyone - the person who starts the thread, or anyone who participates in it - the ability to either edit or delete anyone else's content, thereby solving the first of our two SI problem-lessons. As long as your thread is marked PBI, you can only add people to the PBI list. You cannot remove them from the list, and you cannot alter or delete anything they post in your thread.

Now, what about the second SI problem lesson: extraction without the author's permission? One way of limiting this problem is by giving the person who starts the new thread the option to mark it as either PUBLIC or PRIVATE. If the new thread is marked PUBLIC, then everyone can see it - participants as well as non-participants - which means that anyone can extract from it without permission. If the thread is PRIVATE, then only the people who have been invited to participate can see it and extract from it (with or without permission). The following would apply:

1. If a thread is marked OPEN, it would automatically become PUBLIC, and visa-versa.

2. If you start a new thread out as PBI and PRIVATE, you could change it to PBI and PUBLIC at a later date, but this change would not be reversible (see automated PM idea below).

3. If you start a new thread out as PBI and PRIVATE, you could change it to OPEN at a later date, but it would automatically switch from PRIVATE to PUBLIC status, also. This change, once made, would not be reversible (see automated PM idea below).

4. Extraction without the author's permission could still happen, but the thread's creator at least has the option to limit who can extract from the thread, thereby limiting the chance for non-permission extractions.

5. Extracted content, with or without permission, would still be subject to the website's general guidelines which require that the original author be cited in the quoted content.

If branner agrees to give this a try, I'd like to suggest the following ways of implementing this PBI format:

A. Set up an option in the "New Thread" screen where the person initiating the thread can choose to make it either OPEN or PBI. Set the default to OPEN.

B. Set up an option in the "New Thread" screen where the person initiating the thread can choose to make it either PUBLIC or PRIVATE. Set the default to PUBLIC.

C. To avoid overwhelming branner with requests to manually administer these threads, create an automated method which allows for people to be added to a PBI participant list, have a PRIVATE thread changed to a PUBLIC thread, or have a PBI thread changed to an OPEN thread. If the website's software allows, this could easily be done through PM's (private messages) which auto-execute these requests based solely upon two of the PM's header lines: From and Subject. For example, let's say I created a PBI PRIVATE thread where the first post (my initiating post) had the unique ID# of 6829.* Then if there was a "user" named AUTOMATED REQUEST in the PM "To" list, I could PM automated actions to AUTOMATED REQUEST using the PM's subject line as follows:

6829 Ceist, Totototo, Into the Night = in the thread starting with post 6829 which I initiated, add Ceist, Totototo and Into the Night to the participant list.

6829 PUBLIC = in the thread starting with post 6829 which I initiated, change this thread from PRIVATE to PUBLIC.

6829 OPEN = in the thread starting with post 6829 which I initiated, change this thread from PBI to OPEN, which also automatically changes it to PUBLIC if it was PRIVATE.

The body of the PM would be left empty, and the system could simply respond based solely on the two headers of the PM which would contain all the necessary information (e.g. - which thread is being considered for automated action [Subject line]; which action to take [Subject line]; and is the person requesting the automated action the one who initiated the thread [From line]).

So, in just under 1100 words, based on what we've all learned from the SI experiment, and in a continued effort to create an environment at Climate-debate.com that will inspire more people to join in our conversations, that's what I'm suggesting.

Thoughts?

* - all posts have a unique ID # which can be found by clicking on the URL "bubble" located in the date and time stamp line at the top of every post. For example, a post whose URL ends in "....php#post_6" would have the unique ID # of 6.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
03-11-2015 17:42
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3109)
I have a much better idea.

We should just keep everything as it is *BUT* we create a SPAM thread into which moderators simply move spam posts, with a note "This spam has been moved to <link>" so the spam isn't really deleted; it's still available to be read if anyone wishes to read it, but it just isn't disturbing any discussions.

For example, when trafn fires off a routine salvo of spam, we could just move it into a more appropriate, out-of-the-way place, not deleting it, but allowing others to share ideas despite his attempts to quash all differing opinions.

Thoughts?
03-11-2015 17:49
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaManan - you were one of the people who objected to SI because you called it a form of "third-party" censorship (i.e. - traditional moderation).

The idea I'm proposing only gives limited options to the person who creates a new thread - you included. It does not involve any third-party censorship.

The idea you are now proposing seems to involve third-party censorship, because someone other than the person who initiated the thread would have to decide what is spam and what is not spam. Are you suggesting that you should be that person? If so, wouldn't that be third-party censorship on your part?

Thoughts?


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
03-11-2015 18:05
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3109)
trafn wrote: @IBdaManan - you were one of the people who objected to SI because you called it a form of "third-party" censorship (i.e. - traditional moderation).


I certainly objected to your overt spamming outside of the kiddie pool but when did I ever object to you getting your little "safe zone"?

trafn wrote: The idea I'm proposing only gives limited options to the person who creates a new thread - you included. It does not involve any third-party censorship.


Your method does nothing to prevent disruptive people like you from lauching spam attacks, the only problem afflicting this site. Your PBI arrangement can already be achieved via standard email. We need to focus on real issues, like disruptive spam. I think we should start there.

trafn wrote: The idea you are now proposing seems to involve third-party censorship,

Please reread. I specify nothing is to be deleted. It does not matter whether a moderator recognizes something as spam and moves it, it will still be available to be read.

This addresses the one main problem we face. Beyond this, it's pretty much smooth sailing.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-11-2015 20:11
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - you wrote Your method does nothing to prevent disruptive people like you from lauching spam attacks.

Yes, it does. It gives you, IBdaMann, the option to create threads in which I'm not invited or allowed to participate, so there's no way I can spam in your threads if you choose this option.

Given how much you obviously hate me and everything I say, why would you object to that?


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
03-11-2015 20:58
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3109)
trafn wrote:Yes, it does. It gives you, IBdaMann, the option to create threads in which I'm not invited or allowed to participate, so there's no way I can spam in your threads if you choose this option.

Not if you want threads open to everyone but you don't know when, or by whom, it might get spammed. My method ensures that any spam is simply whisked aside, all but transparent to those having discussions.

trafn wrote:Given how much you obviously hate me and everything I say, why would you object to that?

I don't hate you. I'm your buddy. Who do you call when you want to spar? Obviously you turn to me. When you just want to duke it out with someone, who do you pick on? That's right, me. When you feel the need to throw off the gloves and just go after someone, who's your man?

That's right, I'm there for you.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-11-2015 21:03
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - you wrote have repeatedly posted "nok trafn spam for alle wrote: <spam>" as the sole content of many of your most recent posts.

Haven't we all had enough of these repetitive type of non-nonsensical, intimidating and harassing tactics that you and other trolls on this website constantly use against people who post here. Wouldn't it be nice if instead of having to continually put up with and respond to them, we could just TURN OFF THE TROLLS!

If you're sick of reading IBdaMann's intimidating and harassing posts, as well as those of other trolls, then please read and support my "Posting by Invitation" proposal as I outlined in the first post of this thread at:

http://www.climate-debate.com/forum/pbi-a-new-way-to-moderate-climate-debate-com-without-traditional-moderators-d15-e794.php#post_4534


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!

Edited on 03-11-2015 21:32
03-11-2015 21:09
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - you wrote Who do you call when you want to spar?

Sadly, you fail to recognize that I don't want to spar. I want to have adult-like discussions, which for now you and the other trolls on this website make impossible for anyone to have.

Remember, the defaults are set as PUBLIC and OPEN. It's your choice if you want to make them PRIVATE or PBI

If you think I'm your friend and branner starts PBI here, just watch how many of my PBI and PRIVATE threads you get invited to.

And, by the way, once I can post here without people like you interferring, I will gladly stay out of all of the threads you are in, as I have found 99% of my posts to you having been a complete and utter waste of my time and energy.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
03-11-2015 21:18
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3109)
trafn wrote: Sadly, you fail to recognize that I don't want to spar.

No, of course not. You want everyone to acquiesce to your opinion, and you won't stop until all dissenting viewpoints are extinguished. The moment you noticed viewpoints that did not grovel to your WACKY religion, you because a shithead bully, and you haven't stopped. At that point you became more than happy to spar.

So bring it on, baby, bring it on.

trafn wrote: I want to have adult-like discussions, which for now you and the other trolls on this website make impossible for anyone to have.

You are the only one making discussions of other viewpoints impossible because of your incessant spamming attacks across the site. You think you're fooling others; you think others are somehow buying that you are the victim.

Hey, I'll take one for the team. Spend your time trying to bully me and you won't be bullying others.

Buddy.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-11-2015 21:33
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - you wrote You want everyone to acquiesce to your opinion, and you won't stop until all dissenting viewpoints are extinguished.

Hooray! You agree with having "Posting by Invitation" (PBI) on this website. You don't want to acquiesce to my opinion, and now you can prevent that by making all your threads PBI and PRIVATE. That way I can't even participate in your threads and you will be safe from my so called "spamming."

I also support PBI, as I will gladly make all my threads PBI and PRIVATE to keep trolls like you out.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
03-11-2015 21:36
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3109)
Hooray! You agree with having spam-removing moderator on this website. That way I can't disrupt your threads, even if I participate.

I also support having a spam-removing moderator, as I will gladly make all my posts relevant to the conversastions at hand.[/quote]


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-11-2015 21:51
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - you wrote You agree with having spam-removing moderator on this website.

If you are serious about this, I'd like to discuss it more. Please give me your opinion on the following:

1. Who would define spam?

2. What would be the definition of spam?

3. Who would be the spam removing moderator?

4. What actions could the spam removing moderator take - trash-bin or delete (I prefer delete)?

5. Can the spam removing moderator go back through old posts and "de-spam" them, also (I think this might be a very good idea)?

6. Can someone be banned from the website if they continue to spam after being warned not to do so - a kind of "three-strikes-and-you're-out" policy (I think this might also be a very good idea)?

Thoughts?


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!

Edited on 03-11-2015 21:52
04-11-2015 02:45
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5558)
A few observations if I may:

I have found that attempts to run a blind forum (such as this one, which does not require much in the way of identification) can be largely successful.

Moderation of such forums is capable of very limited scope. All a moderator can really do is delete offending posts (such as obvious off topic spam). Any attempt to kick an offending user off the board will only result in that user coming back under another name. Fortunately, there is another way that works better. Just ignore the spam.

Any public blind forum is going to have it's share of tough language. It is impossible to stop, even if there are effectively read-only public sections on the forum (or any other forum). The recent disaster with the Sharing Ideas section shows why. Despite what anyone may feel, a public post is just that...public. Like an open radio broadcast, there is nothing to stop copying it. Nothing legally, nothing mechanically.

Completely private threads, effectively providing a kind of private group mail system, does work to keep 'undesirables' out. It does require a software change though, that can be extensive, considering the security that must be implemented with it. Such threads often turn into dead zones, since they do not allow new arrivals to participate easily. Such new arrivals may not even be aware of the private thread's existence. This tends to cause spam to be generated in public areas advertising the thread (another problem that has been occurring lately).

Personally, I find blind forums such as climate-debate.com to be well run as they are. Spam has been limited to the cases I've described above and has so far not involved someone advertising some outside product or something. The tough language can be handled by anyone with any kind of thickness on their skin. The debates are open and honestly trying to espouse views from a wide variety of people. The sometimes seemingly endless ad hominems can be ignored until they go away on their own.

I believe this site to be just great the way it is. It makes the best compromise for all concerned and allows others to join and express their views easily. Anyone participating in the blind forum is already well aware of the tough language that often results in open discussions. Such forums provide a valuable service to the world community to allow a place to openly discuss contentious issues without fear of their person or property. Verbal abuses mean nothing in the end, for they aren't even part of the argument and can be safely ignored.

Such are my 2 bits (or my 1/125th of an ounce of gold at current prices).
04-11-2015 04:08
Jakob
★☆☆☆☆
(127)
­



@trafn

I think your suggestion is too much.
Think about the poor reader from Italy with a bad English capacity.
They will never understand it.
I read half of it and I went dead too, sorry.





@Into the Night


Nice to see you write in a more calm way.




Any attempt to kick an offending user off the board will only result in that user coming back under another name.


I think they may meet a surprise but if they behave good in the new profile it might not be a problem but a solution.



The recent disaster with the Sharing Ideas


I disagree. I think it was a fine experiment that has given some good stuff to think about.




This tends to cause spam to be generated in public areas advertising the thread (another problem that has been occurring lately).


I agree but that is adjustable.



The tough language can be handled by anyone with any kind of thickness on their skin.


So you want to exclude everybody with sensitive skin..?





­­
04-11-2015 05:09
Totototo
★☆☆☆☆
(117)
@Into the Night - That's well said. I have differences with you and disagree about some stuff but I respect what you've written and still read your answers and give them some thought.

@Tranf - You have good intentions. I think the answer to insults are just simply ignoring them, take for example Climate Scientist, his recent answers to IBdaMann were pretty respectful and he contributed to the subject discussed. Screaming louder than the one who screamed first is going nowhere clearly. My thread asking about causes of climate change went to shit and I've struggled to follow real answers by some users, as they were buried under tons of "Troll this, troll that" and "Wacky faith this, wacky faith that".

@Jakob
I disagree. I think it was a fine experiment that has given some good stuff to think about.

I agree with you Jakob, it was a good experiment. I think it would've worked if the recruiting tactics to join the Sharing Ideas forum weren't so agressive, as in, we had an invitation every two posts in every active thread.

So you want to exclude everybody with sensitive skin..?

If you are really invested in learning about other points of view, you won't mind language. If, on the other hand you come expecting applauses and nods for your own preconcibed opinions, then you don't know what's "debate".
04-11-2015 05:11
Totototo
★☆☆☆☆
(117)
@Jakob -
If you are really invested in learning about other points of view, you won't mind language. If, on the other hand you come expecting applauses and nods for your own preconcibed opinions, then you don't know what's "debate".


Ps: When I said "you" I didn't mean you, it was in general. English is not my first language either, high five!
04-11-2015 10:29
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night - thank you for taking the time to make a lengthy and thoughtful response. I will respond to your statements below (yours are in bold/italic):

All a moderator can really do is delete offending posts (such as obvious off topic spam). - no, a moderator can also do careful editing to give people the opportunity to correct their posts when they go off guidelines, like I tried to do in SI, but which you and others shot down as some form of obscene censorship. In every instance where I did my (*) edit, I sent the person who made the post a PM explaining that they could send me on-guideline content to replace the off-guideline content they had originally posted. In every case, however, no one responded, except to harass me publicly in forums about what an asshole moderator I was.

Any attempt to kick an offending user off the board will only result in that user coming back under another name. - which is fine, as people using multiple ID's can be easily detected. If they've been banned and come back behaving the same way, they will only get quickly banned again. After a few rounds of that, they'll get tired of being banned and go away. If they come back and stop being assholes, then they're welcome to stay.

Just ignore the spam. - unfortunately, spam just clogs up threads and makes it impossible to follow the topic. Who wants to read through 95% garbage/spam to find 5% real content. This site, including my posts to date, is 95% garbage.

Spam has been limited to the cases I've described above and has so far not involved someone advertising some outside product or something. - contrary to this, I have been involved in helping branner remove many advertising spammers from this site. You may not have noticed, because I don't publicize my efforts to help branner like this.

It does require a software change though, that can be extensive, considering the security that must be implemented with it. - the software coding needed to implement PBI is simple and already included in the software branner used to make this website. For example, in PM's to me, he once suggested making Sharing Ideas a totally PRIVATE sub-forum. Therefore, this is something he is already capable of doing. To a computer, a sub-forum and a thread are just collections of data, so either should be easily made PRIVATE. In addition, if you've ever sent a PM without putting something in the subject line, it gives you an error message. This means the software can already read subject line content, as in the error message case it's reading the subject line to see if it contains any text. Therefore, having an AUTO RESPONDER system that allows users to change the settings on their PBI threads automatically is well within the capacity of the website's software. Overall, it would probably take less than 100 lines of code from branner to implement all of PBI.

Such threads often turn into dead zones, since they do not allow new arrivals to participate easily. - this whole site is currently a troll-infested dead zone. If you think a dozen or less people posting mostly troll-trash is an "active" site, then you are mistaken. The real potential of this site is being wasted.

The tough language can be handled by anyone with any kind of thickness on their skin. - that may work for you, but if you really do want to be inclusive of everyone out there, and not just "though skinned" people like yourself, then you should allow for some space where the "thin skinned" can post without being harassed from people like you, IBdaMann and Into the Night. Remember, I've never said you should be banned from here. I've only asked that there be room here where people can be free of your bullying.

I believe this site to be just great the way it is. - see above.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!

Edited on 04-11-2015 11:23
04-11-2015 10:32
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Jakob - I appreciate that you make such great effort to participate here when your primary language is obviously not English. However, this is an English site about climate change. It is not an site for people to come learn English.

People who speak languages other than English would be better off participating in a site that is dedicated to their language. Why do you think branner has a whole other site in Danish?


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
04-11-2015 10:34
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Totototo - you wrote Screaming louder than the one who screamed first is going nowhere clearly.

I agree. Sadly, I have tried so many "nice" approaches already which have failed, that I'm now down to my "not so good" options. Keep in mind that I've been studying the sciences which are the foundation for climate change science since the mid-1970's: FORTY YEARS! I've also taught science at the high school, undergrad, post grad, medical school, and state licensing level throughout that time. Given my four decades of training and experience, it is very easy for me to see when someone else is spouting nothing more than troll bullshit. You, being a beginner at this, as you've said in earlier posts, don't have that kind of experience, yet. You see this website as simply an easy place to learn because there is not much going on here to overwhelm you. Unfortunately, in its current state where you're getting fed mostly troll shit, your time here will actually be "two-steps-backwards" for you in your attempt to move "one-step-forward" towards a better understanding of M2C2.

That said, I do appreciate your thoughts. When you understand M2C2 a little better and get tired of dealing with people who only want to confuse the topic, then perhaps you will better appreciate my efforts to turn this site around. Admittedly, my fight-fire-with-fire attempts did not work, but neither did any of my golden-rule attempts either, which, had you been here for them, you would have known that I did start with those "nice" approaches first.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!

Edited on 04-11-2015 11:33
04-11-2015 16:28
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3109)
trafn wrote:I agree. Sadly, I have tried so many "nice" approaches already which have failed, that I'm now down to my "not so good" options.

Funny. Your "nice" opening approaches were all requests that everyone capitulate to your view. When that didn't happen, you had to have a disruptive hissy-fit that involved spamming the entire board.

trafn wrote: Keep in mind that I've been studying the sciences which are the foundation for climate change science since the mid-1970's:

It would have had a much better result if you had learned any of it at any point.

trafn wrote: FORTY YEARS! I've also taught science at the high school, undergrad, post grad, medical school, and state licensing level throughout that time.

I shutter at the thought of what you might have "taught" your students. Did you teach any of them what "climate" was? I wouldn't mind talking with some of your previous students to see what they "learned".

trafn wrote: Given my four decades of training and experience, it is very easy for me to see when someone else is spouting nothing more than troll bullshit.

Given that you have four decades of brainwashing/indoctrination that has left you unable to discern bullshit from science, it is easy to understand why you refer to science as troll bullshit and to your religion as "The Science".

Religions rarely get along with science.

trafn wrote: You see this website as simply an easy place to learn because there is not much going on here to overwhelm you. Unfortunately, in its current state where you're getting fed mostly troll shit, your time here will actually be "two-steps-backwards" for you in your attempt to move "one-step-forward" towards a better understanding of M2C2.


To4, what trafn is saying here is that any pursuit of science will serve as a double setback to understanding his dogma. There's a good reason for this.

trafn wrote: When you understand M2C2 a little better and get tired of dealing with people who only want to confuse the topic, then perhaps you will better appreciate my efforts to turn this site around.


To4, this site had no problems before trafn barged in and tried to seize control. He is telling you that you must believe his M2C2 faith if you are to understand why he felt it necessary to launch his golpe de estado.


trafn wrote: Admittedly, my fight-fire-with-fire attempts did not work, ...

Preemptive strikes rarely qualify as "fighting fire with fire."


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
04-11-2015 16:46
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Totototo - IBdaMann wrote To4, this site had no problems before trafn barged in and tried to seize control.

Do your homework, Totototo. Did you know that branner opened this website in September of 2009? Read some of the old, unused threads on this website and you'll quickly realize that people have been insulting and harassing each other here ever since it opened, with IBdaMann having a long line of people complaining about him long before I got here. That's why, until there is at least equal space for people to interact in an adult manner, trolls like IBdaMann will continue to destroy this site and keep it as their personal troll playground.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
04-11-2015 17:02
Jakob
★☆☆☆☆
(127)
­



Totototo wrote:
@Jakob -
If you are really invested in learning about other points of view, you won't mind language. If, on the other hand you come expecting applauses and nods for your own preconcibed opinions, then you don't know what's "debate".


Ps: When I said "you" I didn't mean you, it was in general. English is not my first language either, high five!


I got that. Do you think I am a dummy..?!
Don't answer that please.


But can you be sure everybody fits in those two boxes..?

Can you for instance tell me about a climate subject you have started in forum so important to you that you will not mind that people in every second post tells you that you are an evil person..?




­
04-11-2015 17:25
Totototo
★☆☆☆☆
(117)
Can you for instance tell me about a climate subject you have started in forum so important to you that you will not mind that people in every second post tells you that you are an evil person..?

You're right.
04-11-2015 19:40
branner
AdministratorProfile picture☆☆☆☆☆
(31)
Thanks for the idea, but I'm sure this would get way too complicated, both regarding administration and coding.

I have removed some of the most repetitive spam posts from the last days. I will go through the threads more thoroughly later this week and clean up, so that new visitors don't get too detered from joining.

Please stop wasting your time on that kind of games and start posting more climate related content that is actually going to stay on the site.
04-11-2015 20:20
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5558)
Jakob wrote:
­



@trafn

I think your suggestion is too much.
Think about the poor reader from Italy with a bad English capacity.
They will never understand it.
I read half of it and I went dead too, sorry.





@Into the Night


Nice to see you write in a more calm way.
­­

Don't get used to it! My views on censorship has not changed. My views on people who try to implement it has not changed.

Jakob wrote:

Any attempt to kick an offending user off the board will only result in that user coming back under another name.


I think they may meet a surprise but if they behave good in the new profile it might not be a problem but a solution.­­


How? They would just continue to post their 'tripe' under a different name. What has changed other than the posting name? It just starts the Tolerance Clock over again.

Jakob wrote:

The recent disaster with the Sharing Ideas


I disagree. I think it was a fine experiment that has given some good stuff to think about.
­­

Ideas like the Sharing Ideas Kiddie Pool has been tried many times before on other boards. It has always resulted in disasters like this. I suppose that, if anything, it educated a few people here on what a problem such a scheme becomes.
Jakob wrote:


This tends to cause spam to be generated in public areas advertising the thread (another problem that has been occurring lately).


I agree but that is adjustable.­­

How? By what mechanism? If such spam is deleted by a moderator, the owner of the private area would feel disenfranchised and the private thread would die by attrition or disinterest in talking only to themselves.

Jakob wrote:


The tough language can be handled by anyone with any kind of thickness on their skin.


So you want to exclude everybody with sensitive skin..?
­­

Anyone, who gets on any public media and makes a statement, had better have a thick skin. Anyone, who works with the public in any way, had better have a thick skin. If they don't, it's time they grow up. They are not a child anymore.

It's not that I want to exclude the thin skinned. It's that I want them to grow up and man up to the world at large. They will only be disappointed and angry over nothings in their lives until they do so.

It is not my problem, or yours, that someone is overly sensitive. The only one with the problem is the individual that is overly sensitive. They are the only ones that haven't matured enough to deal with life at an adult level. They are the only ones that can fix it. Their problems extend far beyond this forum.
04-11-2015 20:54
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5558)
trafn wrote:
@Into the Night - thank you for taking the time to make a lengthy and thoughtful response. I will respond to your statements below (yours are in bold/italic):

All a moderator can really do is delete offending posts (such as obvious off topic spam). - no, a moderator can also do careful editing to give people the opportunity to correct their posts when they go off guidelines, like I tried to do in SI, but which you and others shot down as some form of obscene censorship. In every instance where I did my (*) edit, I sent the person who made the post a PM explaining that they could send me on-guideline content to replace the off-guideline content they had originally posted. In every case, however, no one responded, except to harass me publicly in forums about what an asshole moderator I was.

I disagree. Editing a post is essentially deleting it and posting the moderator's post under a false name. Such editing changes the meaning and intent of the post.

trafn wrote:
Any attempt to kick an offending user off the board will only result in that user coming back under another name. - which is fine, as people using multiple ID's can be easily detected. If they've been banned and come back behaving the same way, they will only get quickly banned again. After a few rounds of that, they'll get tired of being banned and go away. If they come back and stop being assholes, then they're welcome to stay.

They cannot be easily detected. You can't search source IP because that's too easily faked and too easily bans others that happen to be using the same IP.

They may get banned again, but each time the Tolerance Clock resets. It is only when they are discovered again they will get banned. For the persistent ones, they will never get tired of it. They may even enjoy it and create puppets. This has been my experience with other blind forums. There really is no way to ban them outright.

trafn wrote:
Just ignore the spam. - unfortunately, spam just clogs up threads and makes it impossible to follow the topic. Who wants to read through 95% garbage/spam to find 5% real content. This site, including my posts to date, is 95% garbage.

I wish you had thought of that before you started spamming all the threads the way you did.

trafn wrote:
Spam has been limited to the cases I've described above and has so far not involved someone advertising some outside product or something. - contrary to this, I have been involved in helping branner remove many advertising spammers from this site. You may not have noticed, because I don't publicize my efforts to help branner like this.

Unaware of that. I will accept your statement on this for now.

trafn wrote:
It does require a software change though, that can be extensive, considering the security that must be implemented with it. - the software coding needed to implement PBI is simple and already included in the software branner used to make this website. For example, in PM's to me, he once suggested making Sharing Ideas a totally PRIVATE sub-forum. Therefore, this is something he is already capable of doing. To a computer, a sub-forum and a thread are just collections of data, so either should be easily made PRIVATE. In addition, if you've ever sent a PM without putting something in the subject line, it gives you an error message. This means the software can already read subject line content, as in the error message case it's reading the subject line to see if it contains any text. Therefore, having an AUTO RESPONDER system that allows users to change the settings on their PBI threads automatically is well within the capacity of the website's software. Overall, it would probably take less than 100 lines of code from branner to implement all of PBI.

I suppose branner is a better source of that estimate and how much work he is willing to do than you are.

trafn wrote:
Such threads often turn into dead zones, since they do not allow new arrivals to participate easily. - this whole site is currently a troll-infested dead zone. If you think a dozen or less people posting mostly troll-trash is an "active" site, then you are mistaken. The real potential of this site is being wasted.

This is a false equivalence. You are comparing the difficulty new users have in finding a private thread to some evaluation of how terrible this site is. (mark A)

trafn wrote:
The tough language can be handled by anyone with any kind of thickness on their skin. - that may work for you, but if you really do want to be inclusive of everyone out there, and not just "though skinned" people like yourself, then you should allow for some space where the "thin skinned" can post without being harassed from people like you, IBdaMann and Into the Night. Remember, I've never said you should be banned from here. I've only asked that there be room here where people can be free of your bullying.

You have, in fact, specifically asked the "trolls", including me and IBdaMann, to be banned from here. Admittedly it is in one of your emotional moments. I have already responded to the thinned skinned problem. It is in a response to another.

Before you start to think the "trolls" as you refer to us are the thin skinned ones, please remember who attempted to run from the Adult Pool and create a Kiddie Pool. Us "thinned skinned bullies" as you put it, stayed in the Adult Pool and continued our conversations here, including the parallel thread I brought out of the Kiddie Pool (which brought the conversation out to all just fine except for you, who fought to stay in the Kiddie Pool because you couldn't handle it.

I say to you: Grow up. You are no longer a child. It is time to take your place in the harsh and unforgiving Adult world. It isn't as bad as you think it is. It is time, however, you take responsibility for yourself and what you say. It is not just this forum. It is everywhere around you. It is time to stand on your own two feet and not hide behind others for protection. Harsh words, I know. But it is the truth, and they are given in the hope you will take a step back and reflect on them. Your whole life and your practice will benefit as a result. I want you to succeed, and this is the only way to do so.


trafn wrote:
I believe this site to be just great the way it is. - see above.

An interesting denial of your own argument. See reference A.
Edited on 04-11-2015 20:55
04-11-2015 20:59
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5558)
trafn wrote:
@Jakob - I appreciate that you make such great effort to participate here when your primary language is obviously not English. However, this is an English site about climate change. It is not an site for people to come learn English.

People who speak languages other than English would be better off participating in a site that is dedicated to their language. Why do you think branner has a whole other site in Danish?


Frankly, I think he's doing just fine. His English is actually very good in my opinion. Sites like this are actually great methods of practicing a new language. It is conversational English complete with the time necessary to apply translation techniques in a non-real time environment.

I was unaware of the Danish site. If I was trying to learn that language, I would definitely be on that site!
04-11-2015 21:03
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5558)
trafn wrote:
@Totototo - IBdaMann wrote To4, this site had no problems before trafn barged in and tried to seize control.

Do your homework, Totototo. Did you know that branner opened this website in September of 2009? Read some of the old, unused threads on this website and you'll quickly realize that people have been insulting and harassing each other here ever since it opened, with IBdaMann having a long line of people complaining about him long before I got here. That's why, until there is at least equal space for people to interact in an adult manner, trolls like IBdaMann will continue to destroy this site and keep it as their personal troll playground.


This seems to deny your own argument. First you complain that the site was destroyed by IBdaMann before you got here, then you got here and stayed because it was a friendly forum, at least until IBdaMann became a "troll"?

Which is it?
Edited on 04-11-2015 21:04
04-11-2015 23:26
Ceist
★★★☆☆
(592)
Into the Night wrote:Anyone, who gets on any public media and makes a statement, had better have a thick skin. Anyone, who works with the public in any way, had better have a thick skin. If they don't, it's time they grow up. They are not a child anymore.

It's not that I want to exclude the thin skinned. It's that I want them to grow up and man up to the world at large. They will only be disappointed and angry over nothings in their lives until they do so.

It is not my problem, or yours, that someone is overly sensitive. The only one with the problem is the individual that is overly sensitive. They are the only ones that haven't matured enough to deal with life at an adult level. They are the only ones that can fix it. Their problems extend far beyond this forum.
It's not difficult to do a search on the internet for posts on a number of public forums by both you and IbDaMann. It appears you've both been posting your scientifically uneducated personal opinions that even the natural 'greenhouse' effect can't possibly exist, for quite a few years now. The same thing over and over and over and over and over again, ad nauseum.

As it's the equivalent of claiming the earth is flat or gravity doesn't exist, or the earth is only 6000 years old, you must be very used to being ridiculed and mocked after so many people have patiently tried to explain basic textbook physics to you both over and over and over again, provided links to valid science sources, textbooks, videos, lectures and even children's educational websites which dumb it down so even a 3rd grader can understand it, that they get frustrated and just tell you to 'read a goddamned science textbook you moron'. To which you probably replied that all the textbooks are wrong, scientists are all stupid, and you are right.
.

Over the years, your 'skin' must have become so thick that it's become like a Teflon-coated science-denying shield, impervious not only to science, facts, evidence, and logic, but to insults as well.


Instead of a 'flat earther' or 'young earther', posters like you and IBdaMann now have their own label on internet blogs and forums: "Sky Dragon Slayer".

I understand why you would want an open public forum to proclaim your er... 'different' views. They must be so important to you, that you need to disrupt and shut down any rational adult discussion of science so that you can delude yourself into believing you are 'right' and everyone else in the world, including millions of scientists, every science institution, every university, all the textbooks, and even the laws of physics themselves, are all 'wrong'.

But, much like an angry child screaming, throwing a tantrum, and wrecking everything they can in a supermarket because they have been asked not to take the sweets from the bottom shelf, other grown-ups get rather irritated and often ask the parent to take their child outside.

Anyone remember seeing this banned Dutch commerical?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDSU6q6eD34



Edited on 04-11-2015 23:58
15-11-2015 13:20
Jakob
★☆☆☆☆
(127)
­



@trafn


I see you have started a new forum about climate:
http://nithane.freeforums.net/thread/3/nithane-discussion-forum

With that link as a little advertisement I want to wish you good luck with it.


If you also find no problem with me deep-linking and quoting from the page I may even try to visit it and study it more closely.


However I have been on forums for many years now and I have seen too many of them crash technically or loose good users because of too much nasty moderation.
And that experience makes it very hard to drag me away from branners platform that has earned my trust and respect.

We may also get a moderated sub-forum here later and I look forward to discuss in another thread how we can make it work as good as possible.


If you some day get tired of the new forum I hope you will be back here to do good. Until then I wish everybody all the best cooperation in making the debate about climate as good as possible for all humans on earth.






­
15-11-2015 14:58
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Jakob - thanks for your support.

Moderation, like everything else, is best done in moderation. My new M2C2 (man-made climate change) forum is based upon the guiding principle:

Agreement is not necessary, but respect is required.

This new forum is open to anyone who is an M2C2 believer, skeptic or doubter, but it's not a place for denialist trolls (that's what Climate-debate.com is for).

While it's still a work in progress, so far you can:

1. Reply to threads immediately by directly posting in them - share your ideas!

2. Create threads immediately - start new conversations on new subjects!

3. Create polls immediately - make surveys and see results!

4. Moderate your own sub-forum - have your own area specifically to discuss what's of interest to you that can either be open to everyone, by invitation only, or closed where you select who participates.

5. Win a free collector's copy of Bursting the Atmosphere: what happens when rain falls up - 2nd Edition (due out in 2016). The collector's edition will have a light blue cover and be marked as "The Nithane Collector's Edition." Only 10 of these will be printed and mailed free to the winners. I will select winners based upon their level and quality of participation in this new forum, regardless of whether they agree or disagree with what is being posted there.

Check it out and let me know what you think. Comments, suggestions, and any ideas for improvement are welcome!



The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
15-11-2015 15:45
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3109)
trafn wrote: Agreement is not necessary, but respect is required.


...and you define "respect" as agreement with your WACKY unfalsifiable religious nutcase fringe opinions. To not grovel to your baseless faith is to be a "denialist troll" who should be silenced.

You are an internet version of Hitler. You have brown shirts ready for the few who want to follow you. Just realize that most people aren't interested in your brand of cencorship.

trafn wrote: This new forum is open to anyone who is an M2C2 believer, skeptic or doubter, but it's not a place for denialist trolls (that's what Climate-debate.com is for).

...and you determine arbitrarily who is a "denialist troll" based on what WACKY baseless religious unfalsifiable bullshit dogma they don't believe.

You don't deserve any of the respect you so desperately seek. Mockery is all you have earned thus far. You insult those who genuinely try to help you. You're an insolent, bulveristic moron.

trafn wrote: Denialist Trolls are the ultimate abortionists - they abort our future.

You absurdly demonize others for simply disagreeing with your sheer idiocy. Good luck accumulating followers who are all too stupid to keep from being gullibly sucked into the scam.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
19-11-2015 02:27
branner
AdministratorProfile picture☆☆☆☆☆
(31)
I have just removed more than 100 posts with drooling babies, ads for other websites, duplicate posts and fruitless discussions about spam. Please stick to the guidelines, folks!
Edited on 19-11-2015 02:28
19-11-2015 20:09
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3109)
branner wrote:
I have just removed more than 100 posts with drooling babies, ads for other websites, duplicate posts and fruitless discussions about spam. Please stick to the guidelines, folks!

Drooling babies adhere to the guidelines. They're cute like Ceist (when Ceist posts), they're naive like Ceist, they drool like Ceist, they jibber like Ceist, and they want to grow up some day, just like Ceist.

Frankly, I see no guidelines against Ceist. You might need to review the guidelines.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
19-11-2015 21:38
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Jakob - I notice you post here and on the Danish version of this website. That sites seems to have about the same volume as this one (i.e. - they are both dead websites).

Does that other site also have denialist trolls like this one does?


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
20-11-2015 03:58
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3109)
trafn wrote:@Jakob - thanks for your support.


Jakob didn't seem to be supporting you as much as he seemed to be saying exactly what I said but in a much more polite manner.

Notice Jakob's prediction that your site will pretty much go bust...because of you, i.e. censorship, aka "moderation," and notice his echoing of Into the Night's prediction that you will be back here.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist




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