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Overpopulation - How to solve the problem..?


Overpopulation - How to solve the problem..?27-10-2015 23:41
Jakob
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In all developed countries we just write a law that forces everybody to ask the state permission before they become pregnant.
And thereafter the democracy will be able to regulate its own population to a safer size during climate changes and other force majeure crises.


How hard can it be..?


Do you have a better suggestion..?



I do not want to discuss if a reduction of a population is needed today.
I want you to imagine it is and we have to find the best tools to do it more and less in a hurry.



Please give me simple efficient suggestions instead of a lot (*) like the quote below.
Or maybe I am judging it a little too hard - what do you think..?



http://www.conserve-energy-future.com/causes-effects-solutions-of-overpopulation.php
Solutions to Overpopulation

Better Education: One of the first measures is to implement policies reflecting social change. Educating the masses helps them understand the need to have one or two children at the most. Families that are facing a hard life and choose to have four or five children should be discouraged. Family planning and efficient birth control can help in women making their own reproductive choices. Open dialogue on abortion and voluntary sterilization should be seen when talking about overpopulation.

Making People Aware of Family Planning: As population of this world is growing at a rapid pace, raising awareness among people regarding family planning and letting them know about serious after effects of overpopulation can help curb population growth. One of the best way is to let them know about various safe sex techniques and contraceptives methods available to avoid any unwanted pregnancy.

Tax Benefits or Concessions: Government of various countries might have to come with various policies related to tax exemptions to curb overpopulation. One of them might be to waive of certain part of income tax or lowering rates of income tax for those married couples who have single or two children. As we humans are more inclined towards money, this may produce some positive results.

Knowledge of Sex Education: Imparting sex education to young kids at elementary level should be must. Most parents feel shy in discussing such things with their kids which result in their children going out and look out for such information on internet or discuss it with their peers. Mostly, the information is incomplete which results in sexually active teenagers unaware of contraceptives and embarrassed to seek information about same. It is therefore important for parents and teachers to shed their old inhibitions and make their kids or students aware of solid sex education.




(*) - moderator's note: this post has been modified because it contained content which fell outside of the Shared Ideas guidelines.
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Edited by trafn on 28-10-2015 09:16
28-10-2015 00:16
Totototo
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I'm sorry I don't get why you think those solutions are not simple efficient suggestions.* What would you consider to be an acceptable working solution?

* moderator's note - this post was modified with the above text that is in bold italics, which replaces original text from a post above which fell outside of the guidelines of the Shared Ideas sub-forum that has also been modified.
Edited by trafn on 28-10-2015 09:03
28-10-2015 00:48
Jakob
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Totototo wrote:
I'm sorry I don't get why you think those solutions are not simple efficient suggestions.*


They may be too slow and too expensive and they can seem very poor in dealing with the selection that should keep mankind healthy in the future.

* moderator's note - this post was modified with the above text that is in bold italics, which replaces original text from a post above which fell outside of the guidelines of the Shared Ideas sub-forum that has also been modified.



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Edited by trafn on 28-10-2015 09:03
28-10-2015 00:58
Totototo
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So...what would be a fast way to deal with it? I don't like where this is going...
28-10-2015 03:59
IBdaMann
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Totototo wrote:
So...what would be a fast way to deal with it? I don't like where this is going...

I think Chile once had a way of dealing with "extra" undesirable population. It was very quick.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
28-10-2015 08:58
Jakob
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Totototo wrote:
So...what would be a fast way to deal with it? I don't like where this is going...


It depends on the climate situation how fast is needed.
It is up to you to make suggestions for all imaginable scenarios.
However it is the fast good ways that are the hardest to find so of course they may also be the most interesting.

I already made one suggestion for developed countries.




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28-10-2015 10:26
Tim the plumber
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https://overpopulationisamyth.com/

There is no such problem.

(*) - moderator's note: this post has been modified because it contained content which fell outside of this sub-forum's guidelines.
Edited by trafn on 28-10-2015 13:02
28-10-2015 14:02
Totototo
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@IB - Pinochet sure was a visionary. Now really, I can't imagine a faster solution that doesn't involve:
A) Mass unfertilization (which I'm not sure it's a word) of a generation.
Mass murder

Someone enlighten me please.
28-10-2015 15:30
IBdaMann
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Totototo wrote: unfertilization (which I'm not sure it's a word)

"sterilization."

(*) - moderator's note: this post was edited because it contained content which fell outside of this sub-forum's guidelines.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist

Edited by trafn on 28-10-2015 22:36
28-10-2015 16:23
Totototo
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Yep, that's the word IB.
Also I just realized that I put a smiley next to "mass murder" but it was an accident haha. I meant to put "b)" but did it with "B".
28-10-2015 22:19
trafn
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Hi Jakob,

This is truly a fascinating question, and probably one of, if not the underlying key to M2C2 (man-made climate change). I wrote a book on climate change in 2014 titled Bursting the Atmosphere: what happens when rain falls up* in which I stated (page 58):

"POPULATION CONTROL: I am sorry to burst your bubble, but even though their implementation backfired, the Chinese were right. We need to decrease the population of this planet, and quickly, back down to a level that will not overtax global renewable resources. It took over one hundred years of linear growth to double the Earth's population from one billion in 1804 to two billion in 1927. Less than one hundred years later, by 2012, exponential growth had more than tripled the number of people alive to seven billion. [1] While I have not yet seen numbers showing the best fit between renewable resources and our planetary population size, if linear acceleration had continued after 1927, then there would be less than three billion people alive on Earth today. Therefore, my best guestimate is that we need to rapidly reduce our planet's population, or at least its carbon footprint, by at least half before 2060. To be done thoroughly and peacefully, it will take a worldwide voluntary effort. The Chinese have already demonstrated - via female infanticide - how people will resist such a process if they are forced to comply. [2]"

I believe that population control will be a key factor in solving M2C2. Unfortunately, state mandated population control is unlikely to succeed, as China already tried it and failed. Also, I doubt voluntary population control will work (people just doing it on their own) as most of the world still holds onto the idea that large families represent future economic security.

That leaves only involuntary population control from things like runaway diseases (epidemics and plagues), political unrest (civil and international wars), and mass killings (human rights violations and genocide). The less we take an active role in addressing M2C2, the more likely we are to suffer mass population lose from one of these.

* - I've attached a free copy in a PDF file for you, if you would like to read it.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

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Attached file:
burstingtheatmosphere_1stedition2014_6.pdf
Edited on 28-10-2015 22:24
28-10-2015 23:55
trafn
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Hi Jakob,

In your original post in this thread you asked for simple efficient suggestions that would solve the overpopulation problem.

I don't know if such a thing exists.

If you mean simple in terms of low cost, and efficient in terms of fast, then mass murder is probably the most simple and efficient answer (example: drop a bunch of nuclear weapons on highly populated areas).

Unfortunately, simple and efficient in those terms would not be humane.

The Chinese did try a simple and efficient method of population control with their "One Child Policy." Sadly, it ran aground against their cultural preference for boys and led to a mass genocide of baby girls during the policy's reign. So even a seemingly "simple" idea like this can have unanticipated and catastrophic consequences.

So, like I said, I don't know if there is a simple and efficient answer to the overpopulation problem. Realistically, the way people are drawn to and driven by sex, it may be impossible to stop.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
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4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
29-10-2015 08:08
Jakob
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Thank you for all your answers.

But please remember I wrote this and please stay on subject:

Jakob wrote:
I do not want to discuss if a reduction of a population is needed today.
I want you to imagine it is and we have to find the best tools to do it more and less in a hurry.
Β­







trafn wrote:
The Chinese did try a simple and efficient method of population control with their "One Child Policy." Sadly, it ran aground against their cultural preference for boys and led to a mass genocide of baby girls during the policy's reign. So even a seemingly "simple" idea like this can have unanticipated and catastrophic consequences.


I think they have been doing maybe too well at some places.
Maybe they just need to do a little less overall and a little more to save baby girls and everything will be fine..?

Do you blame the state method for parents choosing to kill there baby girls..?

However it can never be as good as I want it to be because it makes no clever selection.




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29-10-2015 08:25
Jakob
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In Europe we help people to take poison if they are too unhappy with life.

Do you know about that from other places in the world..?

Β­What do you think about it. Is it okay to help people killing themselves..?

I think not.
It spoils my good mood to think about all the ways it can be abused.




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29-10-2015 15:21
trafn
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Hi Jakob,

1. As to the Chinese One Child policy, I think they had good intentions. Unfortunately, the general population had a cultural preference for boys, and given they were only allowed one child, many parents drowned, abandoned or, by other means, killed their baby girls so that they could try again to have a baby boy. Again, I in no way think the Chinese government intended, hoped, or wished that this would happen. It was just a tragic, Titanic, oversight on their part.

2. As to euthanasia, yes, it has a great potential for abuse. However, I do believe there are several states in the U.S. which allow it under very special circumstance like terminal cancer. I don't think depression, unhappiness or any other emotional states are acceptable reasons here, yet. Personally, I agree with euthanasia for people who:

A. are terminally ill.
B. have no quality of life remaining.
C. are suffering from an unacceptable level of pain.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
29-10-2015 21:55
Jakob
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It seems like China is now changing to "two-child policy":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-child_policy
Two-child policy is a government-imposed limit of two children allowed per family or the payment of government subsidies only to the first two children. It is used for some population groups in China, has previously been used in Vietnam, and has been discussed in the Philippines. Although not by law, in 1970s, citizens of Hong Kong were also highly encouraged to have two children as a limit, and it was used as part of the region's family planning strategies.


On 29 October 2015, Xinhua reported the change in the existing law to a two-child policy citing a statement from the Communist Party of China.




Their one-child policy has given China about 400 million people less to feed over 30 years but their population is still growing.

So after a short well deserved break in an uncertain climate situation China may choose to squeeze it even further for another 30 years.

Can we think of something that can make it easier for them if they do so.?




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29-10-2015 22:07
Jakob
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Jakob wrote:
So after a short well deserved break in an uncertain climate situation China may choose to squeeze it even further for another 30 years.

Can we think of something that can make it easier for them if they do so.?
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How about trying to send them some Syrian refugees to help them take care of old people..?
Maybe it will fit, so after some time there is peace in Syria and less old people in China.
It will be better for China, and also better for refugees than being parked in a camp.

And maybe it will also be very important for the rest of the world to see that we help nations with problems they get from reducing their population.




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29-10-2015 22:55
trafn
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@Jakob - Yes, I do think I recall having read that they did change to the "Two Child" policy. Your concept of sending the Syrian refugees there to help in the shortage of skilled labor is a worthwhile one to consider. Of course, it would depend upon whether or not any Syrians would seriously consider going to China. The Chinese language and culture are so unique among all others, that living there can be a difficult challenge for outsiders.

In the end, going against our inborn drives to procreate, which starts in full force once we undergo hormonal changes at puberty (pre-teen or early teenage years), is an uphill battle. Though population reduction makes sense on paper, getting people to refrain from sexual behavior which leads to population increase may not be acceptable to most people.

Also, many cultures still see the "large family" as their main form of social security for their elders. Many poor Chinese still adhere to this concept, as do many people in the United States.

Overpopulation is one of, if not the key driving force in M2C2 (man-made climate change). Solving it may be beyond our specie's control.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
30-10-2015 09:29
Totototo
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In Europe we help people to take poison if they are too unhappy with life.


Can you expand a bit more about this please? Which countries approved this? What was the reason behind it? Was there a lot of oposition? Arguments in favor and against? I'm guessing there's an application, so how do you apply? Only physically sick people or can depressed people submit as well?

I understand if you don't have time but I'm curious to learn about this from a citizen of a country where this happens.
30-10-2015 11:38
Jakob
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Thank you for all response.




trafn wrote:
Also, many cultures still see the "large family" as their main form of social security for their elders.


Yes but that is changeable.
If we for instance begin to always keep in mind to help people without children before the rest I think it will help the culture to change its mind..?




@Totototo


It is legal in Switzerland.
In Denmark it is not legal yet but we have discussed it for some years.

And therefore the danes is the happiest people in the whole world.

I am kidding but do you still get the point..?

I am not quite sure about the details in the system and I may get deeper into it later but I believe it can be used by anybody who wants it.




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30-10-2015 13:41
trafn
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@Jakob - about helping people without children first, it does sound like an incentive to not have children. But, any time you do things that remove incentives to have children, like China's One Child policy, you run the risk of people doing unexpected things to get around that policy, like the infanticide of female babies.

It would be so nice if there were a simple way to get people to understand the benefits of voluntarily moderating the planet's population (increase it when it's low, decrease it when it's high). That type of planning requires long-term thinking. Sadly, most people don't think much farther down the road than their own lifetime.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
30-10-2015 19:48
Jakob
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@trafn


I think you maybe underestimate the chinese people a little and give up upon them too fast. Things can change faster than we know and maybe they just need a little more time and help to adjust.
And maybe you also give them too little of that help in your book so you will soon have to write a new and updated edition..?


It says that two-child policy has previously been used in Vietnam. Do you know something about how that went..?





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30-10-2015 21:21
trafn
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@Jakob - don't misunderstand me. I actually admire the fact that the Chinese tried the One Child policy, and I don't blame them for the unfortunate outcome as I don't think they anticipated what actually happened. But I do acknowledge that what happened did happen, and that it was tragic.

As for Vietnam, I'm not aware of what they've been doing along these lines.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
30-10-2015 22:18
Jakob
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Maybe the most powerful tool to reduce a population is TV
If you catch the heart and soul of the people limits can move.


For instance telenovellas:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tele+novella+brasil

In Brasil birthrate went from 6,3 in 1960 to 2,3 in 2000


More here:
http://conservationmagazine.org/2013/09/tv-as-birth-control/
There is a history to using soap operas to cut fertility. It goes back to Mexico in the late 1970s, a time when the average Mexican woman had five or six babies and Mexico City was becoming the world's largest megacity. Miguel Sabido, then vice president of Televisa, the national TV network, developed a soap-opera format in which viewers were encouraged to relate to a character on the cusp of doing right or wrong—a "transitional character" whose ethical and practical dilemmas drove the plotlines.

His prime soap, or telenovela, AcompÑñame ("Accompany Me") focused on the travails of a poor woman in a large family living in a run-down shack in a crime-ridden neighborhood. She wanted to break out and, after many travails and setbacks, did so by choosing contraception and limiting her family size. It was a morality tale, and nobody could mistake the message. The lessons were reinforced with an epilogue at the end of each episode, giving advice about family planning services.

Some accused Sabido of crude social engineering. But according to research by the country's National Family Planning Program, half a million women enrolled at family planning clinics while the soap was on, and contraceptive sales rose 23 percent in a year. A rash of similar soap operas with names such as Vamos Juntos ("We Go Together") and Nosotros las Mujeres ("We the Women") ran in Mexico throughout the 1980s. They were credited, at least anecdotally, with helping slash Mexican fertility rates. Thomas Donnelly, USAID's local man at the time, concluded that they "have made the single most powerful contribution to the Mexican population success story."






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30-10-2015 22:23
trafn
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@Jakob - wow, that's amazing. I didn't know about that. I guess if you can't get the people into the church, then sometimes you gotta take the church to the people!


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3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
31-10-2015 01:19
Jakob
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@trafn


Maybe not the church exactly but I think I understand the saying.



You wrote this:
http://www.climate-debate.com/forum/overpopulation-how-not-to-solve-the-problem--d6-e783.php#post_4122
Voluntary population control can include:

1. Condoms.
2. Hormonal treatments like birth control pills.
3. Waiting longer to have children.
4. Having fewer children.
5. Not having any children.
6. Same gender sexual activity.
7. Voluntary temporary/reversible sterilization.
8. Voluntary permanent sterilization.
9. Voluntary adherence to a mono-sexual lifestyle (masturbation).
10. Voluntary adherence to an asexual lifestyle.



Can you maybe say something more about no. 7 "temporary/reversible sterilization"..?

Have they found some new easy ways to do it and reverse it for both males and females..?



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31-10-2015 01:31
trafn
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@Jakob - there's a considerable amount of literature about reversing tubal ligation in women and vasectomies in men. The initial results were not good, as they were attempted on patients who were sterilized without reversibility in mind. Now there are new procedures for both men and women (vasectomy; tubal ligation) which are done so that they are more easy to reverse later on if the patient so desires in the future. While there is never a guarantee that the reversal will be successful, the rates of reversibility have improved over the years.


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2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
31-10-2015 20:30
Jakob
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How do you handle it in the USA if a citizen is not allowed to breed but still wants to..?



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31-10-2015 22:17
trafn
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@Jakob - I not aware of any common cases where people want to have children but are not allowed to. Some exceptions might be:

1. If you are under age (younger than 18 years old).

2. You are mentally handicapped and have a legal guardian who stands in the way.

3. You are in prison without access to your "breeding" partner.

Other than those, I can't think of any examples in the USA.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!

Edited on 31-10-2015 22:18
01-11-2015 01:59
Totototo
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@Tranf - Economic situation, criminal record and mental evalutations are considered in the USA?
01-11-2015 02:02
Ceist
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Tim the plumber wrote:
https://overpopulationisamyth.com/

There is no such problem.


Tim, were you aware that the website you are propagating is run by a 'pro-life' religious group which campaigns against contraception and abortion? Their content is not based on published research. It's pseudoscience propaganda.

Spreading anti-contraception religious propaganda (eg lying about the effectiveness of condoms) played a big role in spreading HIV in poverty- stricken countries as well as increasing poverty. They also campaign against vaccinations.



Edited on 01-11-2015 02:04
01-11-2015 02:15
trafn
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@Totototo - you wrote Economic situation, criminal record and mental evalutations are considered in the USA?

1. Economic situation: I don't think this was part of the discussion. The discussion was about things that might prevent someone from "breeding." The examples I gave were about: 1. age of consent; 2. being mentally impaired; and 3. being in prison. I don't think I said anything about economic situations.

2. Criminal record: In the discussion about things that might prevent someone from "breeding," I mentioned the possibility of someone being in prison, which might pose a physical barrier to them breeding with someone outside of prison.

3. Mental evaluations: yes, if someone is determined to be severely mentally handicapped where they are unable to give their own consent to participate in sexual activity with another person, then a court might allow a legal guardian to make decisions for that person in situations involving sexual activity and the consequences from sexual activity. This most commonly occurs when a severely mentally disabled woman is raped and does not have the ability to care for the unborn child. Courts have ordered abortions for these women on the request of their legal guardians.

Try to keep all of this in context. These are not common situations. I was just trying to give some examples.


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01-11-2015 02:33
Totototo
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@Tranf - Ohh I just read Jakob's question and realized I misread it. I thought he was asking what should be considered in order to allow artificial pregnancy to ocur for couples that are sterile.

Reading the question again, I have no idea where I got that from. Sorry!
Disregard my question, I misread
01-11-2015 02:36
trafn
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@Tototot - no problem, I do that all the time.

Edited on 01-11-2015 02:36
01-11-2015 09:24
Jakob
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Β­


Β­
Thanks again for all answers.


I think most nations already have strong tools that they use to prevent people from breeding but normal people are just not aware of it.

In Denmark if at women has a child but no income the social worker may tell her that if she breeds another child they will take the first child away from her.


I am not so happy about that and I hope we can do better.
But it shows a way, and maybe we can agree about what the state can do for a little money it can also do for the climate..?




Β­
01-11-2015 16:22
trafn
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(779)
@Jakob - any State mandated solution to population control will run into difficulties, as there is no way to write an official policy which will take into account everyone's wishes and still not be open to abuse.

The best way to approach population control is by educating people about the dangers of unrestricted population growth, and then ask them to consider voluntary methods of participating in a population decrease program. This way, people can choose on their own, without a government mandate, if they want to participate and, if so, how they will choose to participate.


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