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Global warming and ice caps



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Global warming and ice caps01-11-2017 19:44
Emil
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(17)
My uncle asked if the ice caps are melting wouldnt that make the ocean cooler? Any thoughts?
01-11-2017 20:01
GasGuzzler
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(1026)
If you have a glass of ice water and the ice melts, does the water in the glass get cooler?
01-11-2017 20:02
Emil
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(17)
Yes it does
01-11-2017 20:05
Emil
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(17)
Doesn't it get cooler than if you never put the ice in there to begin with?
01-11-2017 20:09
GasGuzzler
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(1026)
There is far more ice in the ocean than out. Think of your ice cube in the glass of water. How much of it is submerged? ~90%
01-11-2017 20:15
Emil
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(17)
So are u saying that the ice melting doesnt make it cooler?
01-11-2017 20:22
GasGuzzler
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(1026)
The waters around the ice caps are already hovering just barely above the freezing point, whatever that is depending on the salinity of the water. If anything it would warm the water a bit given that the icecaps can be comprised of freshwater(frozen precip/no salt) which freezes at 32F. Seawater typically freezes at around 28.5 F. So any melting Ice cap would send water into the sea at just above 32 F. Make sense?

Sidenote- CO2 has nothing to do with melting ice caps. They have melted and froze for millions of years.
01-11-2017 21:10
Into the Night
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(5558)
Emil wrote:
Yes it does


No, it doesn't. Try it with a thermometer. Water does not get cooler because ice is melting in it.

Take a thermometer, put it in a glass of water, and stick the whole thing in the freezer.

Take it out and watch what happens to the thermometer as the ice melts, forms liquid water, and eventually melts completely.

The thermometer will not change a single degree from the point where ice first begins to melt until ALL the ice is melted.

Putting an ice cube in a glass of water will cool the water down to the same temperature as the ice, while the same thing happens. It will not increase again until ALL the ice is melted.

For all intents and purposes, the presence of ice in ocean water is what cools ocean water. Not that it's melting.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 01-11-2017 21:17
01-11-2017 22:00
Wake
★★★★★
(3396)
Emil wrote: My uncle asked if the ice caps are melting wouldnt that make the ocean cooler? Any thoughts?


Did you have to ask all of these people THAT question? Now we'll be pummeled with all of the wrong answers.

The melting ice doesn't make the immediate area of the melting ice any cooler since it would then reform ice since it is sitting around the same temperature as ice.

In order to cause a phase change - from solid ice to water - you have to add heat but this doesn't really change the temperature of the water. It is added energy that causes the phase change but not a temperature change.

Now theoretically if you melted enough ice, this would cause currents circulating that would bring cold polar water into more temperate waters and cool them somewhat.

But Mother Nature is prepared for this. The Earth has been around a long time and gone through warm periods much warmer than present with most of the land areas of the Earth tropical jungles (the Sahara Desert was a lush tropical jungle). Then during ice ages the large polar ice caps formed reducing sea levels, reducing rains and forming the great deserts of the world.

This is all a natural process and it isn't likely to change. It sure as hell isn't changing from anything man does. If someone tells you that 100 parts in a million of CO2 in the atmosphere is going to change the Earth's climate you have my permission to laugh in their face.
01-11-2017 22:06
still learning
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(202)
Emil wrote:
My uncle asked if the ice caps are melting wouldnt that make the ocean cooler? Any thoughts?


Make the ocean cooler?

If that were the only thing to affect the average ocean temperature, I think it would by some very tiny amount.

If the land ice caps were to melt on land and run into the ocean as almost-freezing water.

The polar waters are already literally icy cold, so mixing in more icy water wouldn't affect the local temperature much. Might even warm things locally since melting icecap water would be about 0 C while seawater freezes slightly lower, about -2 C. The average ocean water temperature is a little higher than 0 C (not much, the deep ocean is already pretty cold) so adding nearly 0 C water to it ought to cool things a little.

Not much though. The average ocean depth is almost 4000 meters, so adding in a meter or 10 meters or even 100 meters of icy water won't change the temperature much.

Wait and see what actually happens.
01-11-2017 22:26
Emil
☆☆☆☆☆
(17)
So you're saying it doesn't effect the oceans temp? Then why are the oceans getting warmer?
01-11-2017 22:35
GasGuzzler
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(1026)
Who said they are warming? Search some current oceans temps. Current buoy readings 50-75 miles apart and see just how variable the reading are over a relatively short distance. No one in their right mind will tell you they know what the average ocean temp is. There's not enough buoy data even in places like Florida to get an accurate "average".
01-11-2017 22:47
still learning
★★☆☆☆
(202)
Emil wrote:
So you're saying it doesn't effect the oceans temp? Then why are the oceans getting warmer?


Other things besides melting icecaps affect ocean temperature.

You're asking about global warming. Ocean warming is part of that.

Basically, a little more than usual downward infrared from atmospheric greenhouse gasses. Some goes into the ocean.

I recommend SkepticalScience, starting at "newcomers start here" https://skepticalscience.com/
01-11-2017 22:50
Emil
☆☆☆☆☆
(17)
Um like 99% of climate scientist say it's cooling. But if the ice melts into the ocean wouldn't it make it cooler?
01-11-2017 23:18
Into the Night
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(5558)
Emil wrote:
So you're saying it doesn't effect the oceans temp? Then why are the oceans getting warmer?


It is not possible to determine the temperature of the oceans. We don't have enough thermometers to even begin a sensible statistical analysis on this.


The Parrot Killer
01-11-2017 23:21
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5558)
still learning wrote:
Basically, a little more than usual downward infrared from atmospheric greenhouse gasses. Some goes into the ocean.


You can't heat a warmer substance using a colder gas.

Oceans are heated by sunlight being absorbed by water, not by any magickal holy gas.


The Parrot Killer
01-11-2017 23:21
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5558)
Emil wrote:
Um like 99% of climate scientist say it's cooling. But if the ice melts into the ocean wouldn't it make it cooler?


Consensus is not used in science.

No.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 01-11-2017 23:22
01-11-2017 23:33
litesong
★★★★★
(2297)
"old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner badnight" bluffed: Consensus is not used in science.

Science is NOT used in AGW denier liar whiner "sigh-ants".
01-11-2017 23:47
Emil
☆☆☆☆☆
(17)
All the top scientist have a consensus that the oceans are warming.
01-11-2017 23:50
Wake
★★★★★
(3396)
Emil wrote: Um like 99% of climate scientist say it's cooling. But if the ice melts into the ocean wouldn't it make it cooler?


Be aware that there was NEVER more than 52% of scientists that were actively involved in climate research that believed that man can cause global warming.

And now that the Obama administration isn't actively threatening jobs and research grants to anyone that would disagree with them, far more are turning to the other side.

Think of it this way - there is no real proof that the temperature of the air is changing any - that is the mean global temperature. Why is this? Because the normal weather variations cause temperature changes up to 100 times greater than the computer modeled "global warming".

Remember that we do not have an accurate data base for temperatures until 1979 when the weather satellites were put into orbit. While we have 200 years of ground based temperature recordings, these are confounded by being placed in locations that had heavy urban growth.

This growth causes a characteristic called "Urban Heat Island Effect". This is from large areas of concrete, asphalt, lack of trees and shrubbery etc. that caused these most commonly measured areas to be much warmer than the surrounding countryside. How much? We simply can't say. Some pictures showed one of the weather monitoring stations directly outside of a building with the air conditioner outlet blowing on it.

There was a chart I ran across that showed the temperatures in the major cities of Japan. It was remarkable that the temperatures rose in direct proportion to the size of the city.

And we have to realize that until last year, the heat measuring from the satellites was pretty hit and miss. There were radiation bands that they didn't cover well and the detectors had somewhat unknown band response.

They recently launched a satellite with a type of detector specifically designed to absorb ALL of the energy being radiated by the Earth. However, this may be confounded by low energy IR reflections in the atmosphere by the Sun - energy that never made it to the ground level and hence cannot be counted in the measurements. And this satellite was only a single test. They have to launch perhaps a hundred of these mini-satellites to be able to properly measure the radiated heat from the Earth. This means that we won't have an accurate measurements for perhaps as much as a hundred years.

So ALL of the data we have is unreliable and any "computer modeling" of this is preposterous on the face of it.

So without real hard data anyone that claims that they know that there is "Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW)" is an ass.

Earlier I posted something that doesn't seem to have shown up on the group so I'll repeat it in case it doesn't show up later: Water has specific heat of some 4.23 times air. This means that the minute amounts of possible temperature climbs of the air would not be detectable in the oceans.

When you have a daily temperature swing of 0 C to + 30 C how do you propose to tell a 1 degree C change over 100 years without a completely reliable data set?

Furthermore, under the Bush and then Obama administrations they purposely counterfeited the data because all of the science departments of the government were taken over by environmentalists whose central belief is that there are too many people on this planet and something has to be done about it. Taking away energy could effectively murder a quarter of the Earth's population in short order.

Finally - Following the Medieval Warm Period (which was warmer than our present one) we had an immensely cold period known as the little ice age. Warm periods are normally followed by cold periods but all of the things came together to freeze the ball off of a brass monkey. This lasted for perhaps 50 years and we have been recovering from it ever since.

Glaciers in Alaska, Siberia, Greenland and Iceland greatly expanded and for all of the "we're getting hotter" talk these glaciers haven't returned yet to the stage they were in before the little ice age.

As Trump has said, this has all been a hoax. While I have my ideas of why and how, I could be totally out of line. Just be aware that anyone that tells you that anything about our climate is known or "settled" science is a damned liar.
01-11-2017 23:54
Emil
☆☆☆☆☆
(17)
Bull crap! U sound like a rush Limbaugh listener. Not into conspiracy theories people. Obama was one of the great presidents of our time.
02-11-2017 00:44
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1026)
Emil wrote:
Bull crap! U sound like a rush Limbaugh listener. Not into conspiracy theories people. Obama was one of the great presidents of our time.


Ah, now I see where you're coming from.

Name 2 things he did to make your life better.
02-11-2017 02:03
Emil
☆☆☆☆☆
(17)
The aca saved my life. Also he gave tax cuts for my small business and we thrived and still are.
02-11-2017 02:04
Emil
☆☆☆☆☆
(17)
But does the melting ice caps make it cooler? That's all im asking...don't want to get political anymore.
02-11-2017 02:49
Surface Detail
★★★★☆
(1673)
Emil wrote:
But does the melting ice caps make it cooler? That's all im asking...don't want to get political anymore.

The warming (due to the human-enhanced greenhouse effect) oceans are melting the ice caps, but the presence of the ice caps is stopping the oceans from warming as fast as they otherwise would. That's because some of the energy added to the system has to go into melting ice rather than warming water.

TL;DR: The melting ice caps don't make it cooler, but they do slow the warming.
02-11-2017 03:31
litesong
★★★★★
(2297)
[b]Surface Detail wrote: That's because some of the energy added to the system has to go into melting ice rather than warming water.

That's why its so critical, when all the sea ice is melted.
After the sea ice is melted, excess AGW energy is then absorbed by the water itself. However, sixty times more mass of water is affected than the quantity of sea ice.... AND the water affected DOES CHANGE ITS TEMPERATURE, unlike melting sea ice, of which the temperature DOESN'T CHANGE, as its melts.
02-11-2017 04:31
GreenMan
★★★☆☆
(661)
litesong wrote:
[b]Surface Detail wrote: That's because some of the energy added to the system has to go into melting ice rather than warming water.

That's why its so critical, when all the sea ice is melted.
After the sea ice is melted, excess AGW energy is then absorbed by the water itself. However, sixty times more mass of water is affected than the quantity of sea ice.... AND the water affected DOES CHANGE ITS TEMPERATURE, unlike melting sea ice, of which the temperature DOESN'T CHANGE, as its melts.


I see them as a disappearing heat sink, like a giant ice cube in a cooler. Everything's fine, until it's gone. Then you better hurry up and drink the beer. And go ahead and put those sausages on the grill too. But get that beer going down while it's still cold.

Seriously, the planet should see a rapid increase in temperature as the last of the ice melts. Or it might not get to that, before the heat sinking ability of the ice diminishes to a point that the global average starts skyrocketing up. Fortunately, that is in the future. So we have time to prepare for it happening, if that is what will happen.

I'm going with prophecy, and am concluding that there will be a major volcanic eruption that cools things down before it gets there. Two reasons for thinking that way. One is my confidence in my understanding of prophecy, and my faith in prophecy. The other is that if it ever gets there, where all the ice is gone, there will be no survival of any life on earth. Well, ok, maybe some of those little creatures they found living in the ice lakes under the glaciers in Antarctica might make it. Or those little creatures that all life evolved from, that still live around the geothermal vents in the ocean will be ok. So it's not a total loss, if it gets there. Though waiting for life to evolve again, before we can live as humans again seems like it's going to suck.


~*~ GreenMan ~*~

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/leftbehind/index.php
02-11-2017 06:14
Wake
★★★★★
(3396)
Emil wrote:
The aca saved my life. Also he gave tax cuts for my small business and we thrived and still are.


So you have a small business and you believe that ACA HELPED you? Are you telling me that you couldn't pay your own health care and STILL own a business? I think that the IRS ought to know about this. As well as the ICE.
02-11-2017 06:16
Wake
★★★★★
(3396)
Into the Night wrote:
Emil wrote:
So you're saying it doesn't effect the oceans temp? Then why are the oceans getting warmer?


It is not possible to determine the temperature of the oceans. We don't have enough thermometers to even begin a sensible statistical analysis on this.


You couldn't tell what a statistic is let alone analyze one.
02-11-2017 06:17
Wake
★★★★★
(3396)
Emil wrote:
All the top scientist have a consensus that the oceans are warming.


Name three of these "top scientists".
02-11-2017 06:29
GreenMan
★★★☆☆
(661)
Wake wrote:
Emil wrote:
All the top scientist have a consensus that the oceans are warming.


Name three of these "top scientists".


Improved estimates of ocean heat content from 1960 to 2015
Lijing Cheng1,*, Kevin E. Trenberth2, John Fasullo2, Tim Boyer3, John Abraham4 and Jiang Zhu1
1International Center for Climate and Environment Sciences, Institute of Atmospheric Physics, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing 100029, China.
2National Center for Atmospheric Research, Boulder, CO 80307, USA.
3National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration/National Centers for Environmental Information, Silver Spring, MD 20910, USA.
4University of St. Thomas, St. Paul, MN 55105, USA.
↵*Corresponding author. Email: chenglij@mail.iap.ac.cn

http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/3/e1601545.full

Will those names work, or do you have some specific ones in mind?


~*~ GreenMan ~*~

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/leftbehind/index.php
02-11-2017 14:45
Wake
★★★★★
(3396)
GreenMan wrote:
Wake wrote:
Emil wrote:
All the top scientist have a consensus that the oceans are warming.


Name three of these "top scientists".


Improved estimates of ocean heat content from 1960 to 2015
Lijing Cheng1,*, Kevin E. Trenberth2, John Fasullo2, Tim Boyer3, John Abraham4 and Jiang Zhu1
1International Center for Climate and Environment Sciences, Institute of Atmospheric Physics, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing 100029, China.
2National Center for Atmospheric Research, Boulder, CO 80307, USA.
3National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration/National Centers for Environmental Information, Silver Spring, MD 20910, USA.
4University of St. Thomas, St. Paul, MN 55105, USA.
↵*Corresponding author. Email: chenglij@mail.iap.ac.cn

http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/3/e1601545.full

Will those names work, or do you have some specific ones in mind?


Gee, apparently you do not seem to have the English to understand what "improved estimates" means. You didn't read the paper which said that they don't have any real data. But then that is the greenman we all know and love to hate.

That paper said: "It is also linked to the internal variations of the climate system and episodic volcanic eruptions; the latter may provide episodic strong radiative forcing to the Earth system"

So are you telling us that man causes volcanic eruptions?

And as for your NOAA reference I can only quote one of their scientists: " I'm retired so I don't need to keep my mouth shut anymore. Kept my mouth shut for 40 years, now I will tell you, not one single IR astronomer gives a rats arse about CO2."

This is the liberal world - if you can't get someone to lie you fire them.

Greenman as usual - first man with ignorance.
02-11-2017 15:06
Wake
★★★★★
(3396)
Wake wrote:
Emil wrote:
The aca saved my life. Also he gave tax cuts for my small business and we thrived and still are.


So you have a small business and you believe that ACA HELPED you? Are you telling me that you couldn't pay your own health care and STILL own a business? I think that the IRS ought to know about this. As well as the ICE.


Emil, please allow me to apologize. I have a bad reaction to anyone that thinks that Obama was in any way better than Bush when the record speaks for itself.

Obama should be sitting behind bars for the rest of his life and you're defending him because you got free medical care from my pocket.

I'm glad that you have a successful business. But that doesn't make the idea of man-made climate change less false.

Melting ice doesn't heat or cool the oceans unless it occurs on a global scale and it isn't. What's more, presently it appears that we may have slipped into a cooling phase.
02-11-2017 15:32
L8112
★☆☆☆☆
(76)
obama was better than bush, bush okay'd a false flag attack on the us to invade the middle east-war as a form of commerce.

obama inherited a catastrophic financial crisis, created by bush, and saved the country from completely tanking. you didn't like him because he was black, and you watch faux news.
02-11-2017 16:27
Wake
★★★★★
(3396)
L8112 wrote:
obama was better than bush, bush okay'd a false flag attack on the us to invade the middle east-war as a form of commerce.

obama inherited a catastrophic financial crisis, created by bush, and saved the country from completely tanking. you didn't like him because he was black, and you watch faux news.


OK. now I see where you're coming from. You're insane. You're a complete idiot that thinks that thousands of people could be murdered and no one would spill the beans.

Tell us how we're being invaded by little green men you moron.
02-11-2017 16:31
L8112
★☆☆☆☆
(76)
all you need is a few people who know, the rest are sheep. the building were rigged with explosives as well, it probably took a team of 5-10 people a couple weeks to make sure the buildings came down in a well planned false flag event.
02-11-2017 16:41
Wake
★★★★★
(3396)
L8112 wrote:
all you need is a few people who know, the rest are sheep. the building were rigged with explosives as well, it probably took a team of 5-10 people a couple weeks to make sure the buildings came down in a well planned false flag event.


OK people - do you see what believers in man-made global warming are?
02-11-2017 16:45
L8112
★☆☆☆☆
(76)
"The media and liberal honchos have seen that they cannot kill off the black race so now they intend to breed them out of existence. In all the movies, TV and fan magazines no black man or black woman is complete without a white counterpart hanging off of their arm. More and more blacks are disappearing and they have gone from 13% of the population to 10% and you say that whites are disappearing."

this is what listening to alex jones does, folks
02-11-2017 16:52
Wake
★★★★★
(3396)
L8112 wrote:
"The media and liberal honchos have seen that they cannot kill off the black race so now they intend to breed them out of existence. In all the movies, TV and fan magazines no black man or black woman is complete without a white counterpart hanging off of their arm. More and more blacks are disappearing and they have gone from 13% of the population to 10% and you say that whites are disappearing."

this is what listening to alex jones does, folks


This is what ignorance on your part does. The queen of the liberals was Margaret Sanger. She actually opened a gathering of the Klu Klux Klan which was entirely a "liberal Democrat" movement.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/5/grossu-margaret-sanger-eugenicist/

Sanger believed that the United States should "keep the doors of immigration closed to the entrance of certain aliens whose condition is known to be detrimental to the stamina of the race, such as feebleminded, idiots, morons, Insane, syphilitic, epileptic, criminal, professional prostitutes, and others in this class barred by the immigration laws of 1924." —"A Plan for Peace," Birth Control Review, April 1932, pages 107-108

So your mother would never have been allowed to have you. That's the liberal that you support without question.
02-11-2017 16:54
L8112
★☆☆☆☆
(76)
bla bla bla, same old shit. conveniently leaving out that parties switched platforms
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