Do man-made climate change deniers prove man-made climate change exists?

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14-10-2015 20:03
trafn★★★☆☆ (779)	@Earthling - in your prior post here, in reference to google, you stated: "M2C2", about 111,000 results, not one of them to do with climate change. Oh, my pretty little Snowflake Earthling, how proud I am of you to see how well you did with that mail-order speed reading program. I'm sure it was of great help to you in reading all those *111,000* google results before coming to your marvelous conclusion. FYI - I bought that same mail-ordered Popeil Speed Reading for Dummies manual, and when the 6 page, double-sided, index-card size instruction booklet arrived, it also contained a bonus coupon for 2% off the Popeil Pocket Fisherman, the deluxe edition.* Which coupon did your booklet come with? * - Yes, I know the deluxe edition costs twice as much, but it included those three extra plastic fishing lures that weren't in the basic version. The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards 1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator! 2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking! 3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers! 4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen! Edited on 14-10-2015 20:07
14-10-2015 20:37
IBdaMann★★★★★ (14394)	trafn wrote: @Into the Night - ah, yes. Probably not much significant runoff yet, even during their version of summer. But the calvings up dramatically which, in turn, increases the mean sea ice (that last bits for you drm ) FYI, I don't know if I missed this already but calvings is somewhat of an interest item to Earthling. I bet you two could find some common ground on that topic. (after all, it's supposed to be you two teaming up against me. I'm the bad guy, remember that) I don't think i can [define it]. I just kind of get a feel for the phrase. - keepit A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist. The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank :sigh* Not the "raw data" crap.* - Leafsdude IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
14-10-2015 20:42
trafn★★★☆☆ (779)	@IBdaMann - goodness... badness... it's all so murky when the world's about to end due to M2C2 (man-made climate change). The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards 1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator! 2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking! 3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers! 4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
14-10-2015 20:44
Into the Night★★★★★ (21588)	trafn wrote: @Into the Night - actually, the calving does because the icebergs from calving do start to melt in the Southern Ocean, thus diluting the overall saline content which makes it easier for the upper levels to freeze. @Into the Night - since your 8 commandments (where are the other 2?) don't effect this thread, I'll assume that includes my prior post from the Grotvik Times. So, I'll just add this follow-up piece on M2C2 (man-made climate change) I found from that newspaper dated "start of the pliocene, plus one week." And, again, I quote: Well dear readers, this will be the last edition of our beloved Grotvik Times, as this is also the end of our beloved Grotvik. As I told you in last week's edition, Mary Plumkin had finally opened that box her cousin Pandora sent her, and wouldn't you know it, M2C2 popped out and has turned our beloved snow and iced draped paradise into a barren dry desert. Of course, we had all hoped that Mary's son - you know, the one who left us for the big city cause he had this sellable talent of turning water into wine - might come back to us and turn water into ice and snow, but he never returned. Oh well, cross that one off. See ya! I'll let you know if I find anymore back issues. You make it sound as if I am arguing that icebergs don't exist. They do. Their source, however, is not only glaciers. They break off any sea ice that is melting for the summer. At that time the sea ice retreats, reducing salinity of the water for the season (returning the water to the sea) then the whole thing refreezes again each winter. The mean ice in Antarctica is increasing. The salinity of the seawater moves back and forth with the advance and retreat of the sea ice. Icebergs from glaciers are generally small (much larger ones are those that crack away from the ice sheet during each summer melt). The amount of water returned to the sea by a glacier is almost insignificant when compared to the other sea ice melting each summer.
14-10-2015 23:19
trafn★★★☆☆ (779)	@Into the Night - with the increase in overall water vapor now in the atmosphere due to increased ocean surface evaporation from increased energy/heat in the biosphere due to trapping by the greenhouse gases, paradoxically during the winter there will be heavier snows (more water vapor, more snow). Yes, this increases the snow volume of land ice in Antarctica, but there is now also an increase in land ice movement toward the oceans with increased calving. In addition to the melt off from the calved icebergs (which, granted, is not a major factor), the entire volume of the calved ice that doesn't melt, which is a major factor, also adds to the volume of winter sea ice. Edited on 15-10-2015 00:17

15-10-2015 11:39
Into the Night★★★★★ (21588)	trafn wrote: @Into the Night - with the increase in overall water vapor now in the atmosphere due to increased ocean surface evaporation from increased energy/heat in the biosphere due to trapping by the greenhouse gases, paradoxically during the winter there will be heavier snows (more water vapor, more snow). Yes, this increases the snow volume of land ice in Antarctica, but there is now also an increase in land ice movement toward the oceans with increased calving. In addition to the melt off from the calved icebergs (which, granted, is not a major factor), the entire volume of the calved ice that doesn't melt, which is a major factor, also adds to the volume of winter sea ice. First, there isn't more snow overall. Where it snows moves from place to place. Some places get luckier than others one year, the opposite may happen the next year. A heavy snow proves nothing. Second, you are forgetting the other effect of warmer oceans that isn't taking place, and that is increased hurricane activity. Increased oceanic evaporation due to warmer water always means increased convective activity. You are also violating the laws of thermodynamics in describing sea ice formation causes. It really is very simple. Summer arrives, ice melts, salinity lowers. Summer leaves, water refreezes, salinity rises. Ice does not cause ice. Ice just is.
15-10-2015 15:07
IBdaMann★★★★★ (14394)	trafn wrote: Your picture is good up until the last frame. It should be a picture of a guy sitting at the beach, enjoying the sun, drinking a Corona saying "If Global Warming isn't real, explain all this." Then all the frames would be consistent in pointing out how religions deny science and misinterpret observations to support the preferred, predetermined conclusions, and to support their static, unflasifiable models. The last frame, as it stands, tells it all. If there were any science to Global Warming then there would have to be a falsifiable model. If there were a falsifiable model then that last frame represents the overabundance of falsifying observations that would destroy the faith. As it stands, your comic is a celebration of the complete unfalsifiability of Global Warming. Thanks for sharing it. I don't think i can [define it]. I just kind of get a feel for the phrase. - keepit A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist. The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank :sigh* Not the "raw data" crap.* - Leafsdude IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-10-2015 16:52
trafn★★★☆☆ (779)	@IBdaMann - as M2C2 (man-made climate change) increases the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere by increasing the rate of surface evaporation from oceans, lakes, rivers, streams, ponds, etc., then during the winter cooling cycles there is more water vapor available to condense into snow and, thus, more snow. Yes, that snow will not be evenly distributed everywhere, but overall there will be more aggregate annual snowfall. This is one of the known paradoxes which occurs during the early phases of M2C2. As to the statement about the convective aspect of hurricanes, it needs further explanation (I didn't get what you meant by it). Now to the LoT's. They are not effected by the relationship between sea and land ice. When land ice calves at the water line between land and sea, chunks of land ice fall into the sea. These chunks of "used-to-be" land ice are now afloat in the ocean where they slowly melt over time, some taking a year or more to completely phase change into a liquid state (oh boy, I finally got to use that phrase again!). Until that happens, as long as they remain relatively close to the shoreline, they will become a component of the sea ice during the winter, thus boosting the overall volume of annual sea ice. By the way, I've no clue what this has to do with what I'm posting here. I just thought it was funny as hell (of course, that would be a temperate, cool hell for all you M2C2 deniers!):
15-10-2015 18:09
IBdaMann★★★★★ (14394)	trafn wrote: @IBdaMann - as M2C2 (man-made climate change) increases the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere by increasing the rate of surface evaporation from oceans, lakes, rivers, streams, ponds, etc., It sounds like you are under the impression that increased evaporation would fill the atmosphere with unlimited quantities of water. I feel like I'm just bursting a long string of your bubbles and I'd avoid it if I could but I've got to address this one as well (since we're "going there"). There's an upper limit to the amount of water vapor that can be in the air, and the process of adding more water vapor to air has the effect of "squeezing out" some of the water vapor that is already there. If you were to half-fill a plastic baggie with water and seal it, water would evaporate into the air in the baggie and then collect in beads on the inner surface of the baggie as it was "squeezed out" by other water that is evaporating...even without any cooling to cause condensation. So, if your fictitious Global Warming were to actually exist, and were it to actually increase evaporation, there couldn't be much more water vapor in the atmosphere to make any noticeable difference. As the weather cools, the lower temperatures themselves squeeze out the water so there wouldn't be additional water vapor in the atmosphere. The model/mechanism you have created just isn't how things work. On the bright side, it stands as a testament to your rather vivid imagination. You should write a book. trafn wrote: Now to the LoT's. They are not effected by the relationship between sea and land ice. I don't think anything affects the laws of thermodynamics. trafn wrote: These chunks of "used-to-be" land ice are now afloat in the ocean where they slowly melt over time, some taking a year or more to completely phase change into a liquid state (oh boy, I finally got to use that phrase again!). Bonus point! ...however, it would be better to say "change states." Only things with "frequencies", e.g. electromagnetic radiation, etc. really can change "phase." I know, I know, Wikipedia uses the word "phase" to mean "state of matter" and who am I to knock Wikipedia? trafn wrote: By the way, I've no clue what this has to do with what I'm posting here. I just thought it was funny as hell (of course, that would be a temperate, cool hell for all you M2C2 deniers!): That cartoon was included in my signature block on another site for over a year. I don't think i can [define it]. I just kind of get a feel for the phrase. - keepit A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist. The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank :sigh* Not the "raw data" crap.* - Leafsdude IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-10-2015 21:37
Into the Night★★★★★ (21588)	trafn wrote: @IBdaMann - as M2C2 (man-made climate change) increases the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere by increasing the rate of surface evaporation from oceans, lakes, rivers, streams, ponds, etc., then during the winter cooling cycles there is more water vapor available to condense into snow and, thus, more snow. Yes, that snow will not be evenly distributed everywhere, but overall there will be more aggregate annual snowfall. This is one of the known paradoxes which occurs during the early phases of M2C2. Probably not. You see, when you have increased energy available in ocean temperatures, convective activity like hurricanes transport that energy to altitude. The storm such increased energy produces is essentially vented away. It does not store. The water vapor sent skyward precipitates out due to colder air, and just returns as rain. The air can only hold so much water vapor. trafn wrote: As to the statement about the convective aspect of hurricanes, it needs further explanation (I didn't get what you meant by it). All hurricanes are convective activity. So are tornadoes. They are like giant bathtub drains that drain upward, not downward. The strong upward motion of air causes a vortex to form around the low pressure 'void'. All cumulus clouds you see in the sky are caused by convective airflow, but flow strong enough to cause a vortex are the ones referred to by the National Weather Service as convective activity. You might say that all storms suck, literally. trafn wrote: Now to the LoT's. They are not effected by the relationship between sea and land ice. When land ice calves at the water line between land and sea, chunks of land ice fall into the sea. These chunks of "used-to-be" land ice are now afloat in the ocean where they slowly melt over time, some taking a year or more to completely phase change into a liquid state (oh boy, I finally got to use that phrase again!). Until that happens, as long as they remain relatively close to the shoreline, they will become a component of the sea ice during the winter, thus boosting the overall volume of annual sea ice. Again, they don't add to the sea ice in and of themselves. They may become part of that winter's ice, but they do not add to the ice by being there. Ice cannot produce ice. The extent of sea ice expands for a different reason than this. The seawater itself is getting colder and more of it is reaching freezing temperatures. trafn wrote: By the way, I've no clue what this has to do with what I'm posting here. I just thought it was funny as hell (of course, that would be a temperate, cool hell for all you M2C2 deniers!): I thought it was funny, simply because it's wrong.
15-10-2015 21:55
trafn★★★☆☆ (779)	@IBdaMann - so, you have finally tripped over my trip wire! What about the quantity of water vapor that a M2C2 induced expanding atmosphere can hold? (rapid evil laughter can be heard in the background: ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!) @Into the Night - "Probably not" is not the same as "not." Just saying.
15-10-2015 22:02
IBdaMann★★★★★ (14394)	trafn wrote: What about the quantity of water vapor that a M2C2 induced expanding atmosphere can hold? Trick question. There is no such thing as "Climate" within the body of science. Ergo, there is no such thing as "Climate Change" Ergo, there is no such thing as M2C2 Ergo, there is no such thing as M2C2 induction. Ergo, there is no such thing as an M2C2-induced atmosphere. ...but if there were...the answer would be 42. I don't know the units of measure but the quantity would definitely be 42 of them. Do you know what they are? I don't think i can [define it]. I just kind of get a feel for the phrase. - keepit A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist. The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank :sigh* Not the "raw data" crap.* - Leafsdude IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-10-2015 23:41
trafn★★★☆☆ (779)	@IBdaMann: 1. It's not a trick question (more about that later). 2. I don't know, what are they (anticipation, anticipa-a-ation....)? 3. Therefore:
16-10-2015 03:17
Into the Night★★★★★ (21588)	trafn wrote: @IBdaMann - so, you have finally tripped over my trip wire! What about the quantity of water vapor that a M2C2 induced expanding atmosphere can hold? (rapid evil laughter can be heard in the background: ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!) @Into the Night - "Probably not" is not the same as "not." Just saying. Considering the point I was making, that's true. Good catch.
16-10-2015 11:23
trafn★★★☆☆ (779)	@everyone - since hurricanes have come up in this discussion, I'll make these predictions here. To the best of my knowledge, the closest any hurricane has ever come to Greenland was Debbie in 1969. With that in mind: 1. I predict that by 2030, at least one category 1 or 2 hurricane will make landfall in Greenland. 2. I predict that by 2040, at least one category 4 or 5 hurricane will make landfall in Greenland. No point in arguing about these as they're only predictions, but just put them in your back pockets for now and we'll talk about them later when we're all in our rocking chairs at the old folks home.

16-10-2015 16:52
IBdaMann★★★★★ (14394)	trafn wrote: 1. I predict that by 2030, at least one category 1 or 2 hurricane will make landfall in Greenland. 2. I predict that by 2040, at least one category 4 or 5 hurricane will make landfall in Greenland. Just a quick question: If no hurricanes make landfall in Greenland by 2040, will that still fall within the margin of error of your prediction? I don't think i can [define it]. I just kind of get a feel for the phrase. - keepit A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist. The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank :sigh* Not the "raw data" crap.* - Leafsdude IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
16-10-2015 23:03
trafn★★★☆☆ (779)	@Into the Night - if no hurricanes make landfall in Greenland by 2040, then I owe you a beer. Oh, what the heck. If no hurricanes make landfall in Greenland by 2030, then I'll buy you that beer even sooner!
17-10-2015 05:33
IBdaMann★★★★★ (14394)	trafn wrote: @Into the Night - if no hurricanes make landfall in Greenland by 2040, then I owe you a beer. Why him? I don't think i can [define it]. I just kind of get a feel for the phrase. - keepit A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist. The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank :sigh* Not the "raw data" crap.* - Leafsdude IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
17-10-2015 05:47
trafn★★★☆☆ (779)	@IBdaMann - what are you whining about. You already got your beer, and a whole pitcher if I'm not mistaken?
17-10-2015 06:21
IBdaMann★★★★★ (14394)	trafn wrote: @IBdaMann - what are you whining about. You already got your beer, and a whole pitcher if I'm not mistaken? It can't hurt to ask, can it? I don't think i can [define it]. I just kind of get a feel for the phrase. - keepit A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist. The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank :sigh* Not the "raw data" crap.* - Leafsdude IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
17-10-2015 17:33
trafn★★★☆☆ (779)	@IBdaMann - oh, alright, alright! I don't want you to feel left out. Here, have another one: The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards 1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator! 2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking! 3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers! 4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
17-10-2015 17:54
IBdaMann★★★★★ (14394)	trafn wrote: (score!) Like I said, it can't hurt to ask. I don't think i can [define it]. I just kind of get a feel for the phrase. - keepit A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist. The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank :sigh* Not the "raw data" crap.* - Leafsdude IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist

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