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CO2 is an acid--so, what's the problem?


CO2 is an acid--so, what's the problem?05-07-2018 00:51
ErnieRogers
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(3)
I am hoping to stimulate thought that leads to a better understanding of how we might get CO2 under control. Most of us understand that CO2 is an acid, or technically, an acid anhydride. For example, when you add CO2 to water, you get carbonic acid, the stuff that fizzes in your soft drink. So we have too much of this in the world around us. You should recall that a base is the opposite of an acid. When you combine them, they neutralize each other. Some materials are acidic and some are basic in their nature. The earth's ocean has become dangerously acidic. Some rocks and soils are noticeably basic. Putting such things in the ocean can neutralize it, increasing its pH.
Here is what I would like someone to think about. Let's step back and look at the whole world. What the world is made of: 0.007% or less is acidic. A little of it we may count as neutral. And 99.6% is basic. Common basic materials that exist in large quantity are minerals like olivines, which are ultramafics, and basalts from the sea floor. Summary: There are plenty of basic materials to neutralize all of the CO2 that is causing so much trouble.
05-07-2018 01:46
still learning
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(191)
ErnieRogers wrote:
.....hat the world is made of: 0.007% or less is acidic. A little of it we may count as neutral. And 99.6% is basic. Common basic materials that exist in large quantity are minerals like olivines, which are ultramafics, and basalts from the sea floor.....


Long ago it was customary for geologists to classify minerals or rocks as either acidic or basic for reasons that have little to do with pH, having little to do with acidity in the sense that a chemist of today (or a geologist of today) would use the term. Yes, olivine would have been called a basic mineral long ago, but I'm pretty sure you couldn't neutralize an acid like sulfuric acid with it.

Olivine will react with carbon dioxide though (along with water) and has been proposed as a CO2 mitigant. See http://www.innovationconcepts.eu/res/literatuurSchuiling/olivineagainstclimatechange23.pdf

The oceans dangerously acidic? Now? Just a little exaggeration maybe?
05-07-2018 02:19
ErnieRogers
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(3)
Thanks, Still learning. Olivines contain magnesium silicate, which can be written as a combination of silica and MgO. The MgO can neutralize sulfuric acid:

MgO + H2SO4 ---> MgSO4 + H2O

And you also have silica (SiO2) as a byproduct.

I am not an expert on these matters--I think there are large areas of the sea floor that are basic by my broad definition. I am thinking of the mid Atlantic ridge, for example. Natural processes involving basic minerals are already absorbing CO2, but they are too slow. How can we speed them up? I suppose any further detail probably belongs in another category. Thank you for the web site. I will check it out.
06-07-2018 06:47
Into the Night
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(5343)
ErnieRogers wrote:
I am hoping to stimulate thought that leads to a better understanding of how we might get CO2 under control.

It is not out of control.
ErnieRogers wrote:
Most of us understand that CO2 is an acid, or technically, an acid anhydride. For example, when you add CO2 to water, you get carbonic acid, the stuff that fizzes in your soft drink.

WRONG. Putting CO2 in water simply results in dissolved CO2 in water. Only a very small part of it actually becomes carbonic acid, that is an equilibrium reaction converting from acid back to dissolved CO2 again. The fizz in your soft drink is dissolved CO2.
ErnieRogers wrote:
So we have too much of this in the world around us.

CO2 is necessary for life on Earth. We do not have too much.
ErnieRogers wrote:
You should recall that a base is the opposite of an acid.

WRONG. pH is simply a reverse logarithmic scale of the amount of hydrogen ions in water. There is no such thing as an 'anhydrous' acid. pH only applies to aqueous solutions. An alkaline is not the opposite of an acid. It simply has less hydrogen ions in it than an acid does.

Water is considered 'neutral' because only half the hydrogen in water is a hydrogen ion. The other half is part of a hydroxide ion.
ErnieRogers wrote:
When you combine them, they neutralize each other.

WRONG. When you combine an acid and a base, they simply produce a new average amount of hydrogen ions that is closer to water. They do not 'cancel each other out'. The new average may be basic or acidic.
ErnieRogers wrote:
Some materials are acidic and some are basic in their nature. The earth's ocean has become dangerously acidic.

WRONG. Earth's oceans are alkaline, not acidic. The pH of ocean water is not uniform either. It varies from place to place.
ErnieRogers wrote:
Some rocks and soils are noticeably basic. Putting such things in the ocean can neutralize it, increasing its pH.

No need to. Calcium carbonate is already there!
ErnieRogers wrote:
Here is what I would like someone to think about. Let's step back and look at the whole world. What the world is made of:

Mostly iron.
ErnieRogers wrote:
0.007% or less is acidic. A little of it we may count as neutral. And 99.6% is basic.

Argument from randU, and pointless numbers considering how the pH scale works.
ErnieRogers wrote:
Common basic materials that exist in large quantity are minerals like olivines, which are ultramafics, and basalts from the sea floor. Summary: There are plenty of basic materials to neutralize all of the CO2 that is causing so much trouble.

CO2 is not causing trouble.


The Parrot Killer
06-07-2018 07:54
Tim the plumber
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(1128)
ErnieRogers wrote:
I am hoping to stimulate thought that leads to a better understanding of how we might get CO2 under control. Most of us understand that CO2 is an acid, or technically, an acid anhydride. For example, when you add CO2 to water, you get carbonic acid, the stuff that fizzes in your soft drink. So we have too much of this in the world around us. You should recall that a base is the opposite of an acid. When you combine them, they neutralize each other. Some materials are acidic and some are basic in their nature. The earth's ocean has become dangerously acidic. Some rocks and soils are noticeably basic. Putting such things in the ocean can neutralize it, increasing its pH.
Here is what I would like someone to think about. Let's step back and look at the whole world. What the world is made of: 0.007% or less is acidic. A little of it we may count as neutral. And 99.6% is basic. Common basic materials that exist in large quantity are minerals like olivines, which are ultramafics, and basalts from the sea floor. Summary: There are plenty of basic materials to neutralize all of the CO2 that is causing so much trouble.


The world's oceans are alkaline as always.

The increase in CO2 in the air has resulted in a very very tiny reduction in the alkalinity of sea water.

There is no evidence of coral or any other sea life being killed by this.

There is strong evidence that the increase in CO2 is causing an increase in fertility of plant life in the oceans as it is on land.
07-07-2018 17:31
RenaissanceMan
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(38)
ErnieRogers wrote:
I am hoping to stimulate thought that leads to a better understanding of how we might get CO2 under control. The earth's ocean has become dangerously acidic. Some rocks and soils are noticeably basic. Putting such things in the ocean can neutralize it, increasing its pH.


Ernie, the ocean is NOT "dangerously acidic." It is still quite basic with a pH of ~8.2. In other words, the ocean is 35 times more basic than plain water, which is also not acidic. So stop exaggerating.

Water vapor is THE dominant greenhouse gas, at ~15,000 ppmv.
Compare this with the insane screams of carbon dioxide poisoning by Climate Change Hystericals when the annual increase in atmospheric CO2 is a scant 1.3 ppmv, of which humans cause only 4%.

What is 4% of 1.3 divided by 15,000?
07-07-2018 18:35
CoolCucumber
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(27)
I think what we need to be clear about here is that ocean acidification refers to it's pH value moving across the pH scale from alkaline towards acid, not it's actual pH level and that the pH scale is logarithmic where small changes in log value represent large changes in what is being measured, ions. I'm guessing this is why you get statements like this ...

Over the past 300 million years, ocean pH has been slightly basic, averaging about 8.2. Today, it is around 8.1, a drop of 0.1 pH units, representing a 25-percent increase in acidity over the past two centuries.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/oceans/critical-issues-ocean-acidification/

But anyway enough lecturing.

What I find fascinating is how 'milk' and 'urine' got onto this pH scale as handy relatable examples of a pH value of 6, slightly acidic.

https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/references/acids-bases-the-ph-scale

I mean sure you can drink milk or even bathe in it.
You can wake up in urine.
Or take a shower, but I don't think that's the target audience.
Who put their hand up during the meeting and said urine?
07-07-2018 19:15
CoolCucumber
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(27)
Tim the plumber wrote:
There is no evidence of coral or any other sea life being killed by this.


Again?
You really do not come across as an honest participant in this debate.
Dread to think what you charge for a shower.

Great Barrier Reef in Danger of Mass Coral Bleaching Events Every Two Years
07-07-2018 19:48
Into the Night
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(5343)
RenaissanceMan wrote:
ErnieRogers wrote:
I am hoping to stimulate thought that leads to a better understanding of how we might get CO2 under control. The earth's ocean has become dangerously acidic. Some rocks and soils are noticeably basic. Putting such things in the ocean can neutralize it, increasing its pH.


Ernie, the ocean is NOT "dangerously acidic." It is still quite basic with a pH of ~8.2. In other words, the ocean is 35 times more basic than plain water, which is also not acidic. So stop exaggerating.

Water vapor is THE dominant greenhouse gas, at ~15,000 ppmv.
Compare this with the insane screams of carbon dioxide poisoning by Climate Change Hystericals when the annual increase in atmospheric CO2 is a scant 1.3 ppmv, of which humans cause only 4%.

What is 4% of 1.3 divided by 15,000?

Water vapor is incapable of warming the Earth.

You can't warm a warmer surface using a colder vapor or gas.


The Parrot Killer
07-07-2018 19:51
Into the Night
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(5343)
CoolCucumber wrote:
I think what we need to be clear about here is that ocean acidification refers to it's pH value moving across the pH scale from alkaline towards acid, not it's actual pH level and that the pH scale is logarithmic where small changes in log value represent large changes in what is being measured, ions. I'm guessing this is why you get statements like this ...

You cannot acidify an alkaline. You must first neutralize it.
CoolCucumber wrote:
Over the past 300 million years, ocean pH has been slightly basic, averaging about 8.2. Today, it is around 8.1, a drop of 0.1 pH units, representing a 25-percent increase in acidity over the past two centuries.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/oceans/critical-issues-ocean-acidification/


It is not possible to measure the pH of the oceans. The pH of ocean water is not uniform and we don't have enough instruments.


The Parrot Killer
07-07-2018 19:53
Into the Night
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(5343)
CoolCucumber wrote:
Tim the plumber wrote:
There is no evidence of coral or any other sea life being killed by this.


Again?
You really do not come across as an honest participant in this debate.
Dread to think what you charge for a shower.

Great Barrier Reef in Danger of Mass Coral Bleaching Events Every Two Years

Like he said. There is no evidence. You are just speculating. Science itself does not use supporting evidence. It produces leading conclusions, which science doesn't allow.

Science is a set of falsifiable theories.


The Parrot Killer
07-07-2018 21:32
CoolCucumber
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(27)
Into the Night wrote:
It is not possible to measure the pH of the oceans. The pH of ocean water is not uniform and we don't have enough instruments.


No, you make an approximation.
Like a Doctor would.
The temperature of the human body is not uniform, neither is gravity.
But we all know what's hot, what's not and which way is down

Measuring Gravity With GRACE

What next schyster, quantum theory - fractals?
Schrödinger's cat?
07-07-2018 22:23
CoolCucumber
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(27)
Into the Night wrote:
Like he said. There is no evidence. You are just speculating. Science itself does not use supporting evidence. It produces leading conclusions, which science doesn't allow.

Science is a set of falsifiable theories.


That was my comment.
I said that.

When was the last time you had sex with a man with a real moustache?
08-07-2018 09:26
Tim the plumber
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(1128)
CoolCucumber wrote:
Tim the plumber wrote:
There is no evidence of coral or any other sea life being killed by this.


Again?
You really do not come across as an honest participant in this debate.
Dread to think what you charge for a shower.

Great Barrier Reef in Danger of Mass Coral Bleaching Events Every Two Years


Which has been shown by actual scientists to be bogus.

That the coral reefs do bleaching now and agian is probably not new. The reason it's probably is that we have not been studying them for that long. So we don't know.

The photo you linked to shows coral bleached due to a prolonged sea level drop during an El Nino. It has recovered now.

Coral lives in tropical fish tanks. Granted it is very difficult to keep living in such places but it can do so. Any tank in any place that does not have an open sky above it will be vastly more acidic than any sea.
08-07-2018 16:27
RenaissanceMan
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(38)
CoolCucumber wrote:
I think what we need to be clear about here is that .....


YOU and your panicking friends are playing rhetorical word games.
Would you say that diluting concentrated sulfuric acid makes it "more basic"?
That is misleading and false.



But anyway enough lecturing.




No, enough rhetoric. The ocean is alkaline, NOT acidic. It is NOT becoming "more acidic" because it is NOT acidic in the first place. It is truly becoming SLIGHTLY less alkaline. And degasification of CO2 is impeding that extremely slow change.
08-07-2018 20:32
Into the Night
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(5343)
RenaissanceMan wrote:
CoolCucumber wrote:
I think what we need to be clear about here is that .....


YOU and your panicking friends are playing rhetorical word games.
Would you say that diluting concentrated sulfuric acid makes it "more basic"?
That is misleading and false.



But anyway enough lecturing.




No, enough rhetoric. The ocean is alkaline, NOT acidic. It is NOT becoming "more acidic" because it is NOT acidic in the first place. It is truly becoming SLIGHTLY less alkaline. And degasification of CO2 is impeding that extremely slow change.


We don't even know. It's not possible to measure the pH of the oceans because it is not uniform. We just don't have the instruments.

Assuming CO2 in the atmosphere is uniform (it isn't, making impossible to measure the Earth's CO2 content), and using the Mauna Loa station data (which has now shown to be cooked, since it has failed throughout its history to show volcanic activity in Hawaii), I will run the numbers AS IF the gas was uniform and the Mauna Loa station data was actually raw data. The numbers I will use here are very general and are temperature dependent (we don't know the temperature of the oceans either) and so I will assume the ocean water to be an average of 25 degC or 77 degF, since these figures are used as standards for various parts of the math and chemistry that follows. Colder water reduces the CO2 concentration and the resulting carbonic acid concentration.

Out of 400ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere (about 0.04% of the total, meaning its a rarefied gas), the oceans too will see somewhat less than 400ppm. Most of that stays as dissolved CO2 in the water. Only a very small part of THAT actually becomes carbonic acid. The equilibrium ratio is 0.0017, so that means carbonic acid in the oceans hovers around 680ppb (or 0.000068%) of the ocean water.

Mauna Loa started measuring in 1957, first reporting 290ppm (or 0.029% of the atmosphere). The ocean water will be essentially the same concentration. This makes the carbonic acid approx 374ppb (or 0.000037%) of the ocean water. So in 60 years, the carbonic acid has increased by 306ppb (or 0.00003%) in the world's oceans.

Carbonic acid is a weak acid. At 1mMole/liter, it's pH is 4.18. We are dealing with concentrations MUCH smaller than this!

pH is an inverse logarithmic scale. This difference is so small as to not be practically measurable, and the variance of natural alkalinity of ocean water easily masks it.

So at 0.00003% of the ocean water, the effective pH of the oceans has not changed.


Of course the Church of Global Warming denies science (including chemistry), and mathematics. They always have.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 08-07-2018 20:35
11-07-2018 02:30
CoolCucumber
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(27)
CoolCucumber wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Like he said. There is no evidence. You are just speculating. Science itself does not use supporting evidence. It produces leading conclusions, which science doesn't allow.

Science is a set of falsifiable theories.


That was my comment.
I said that.

When was the last time you had sex with a man with a real moustache?


Let's call it indetermined.
Get a grip, mate.
11-07-2018 02:43
CoolCucumber
☆☆☆☆☆
(27)
Have you actually killed a parrot, they are fairly flimsy beings you could snap it's neck like a chicken and disguise it online as something else? A wrong opinion?
11-07-2018 03:00
CoolCucumber
☆☆☆☆☆
(27)
Tim the plumber wrote:

bogus.

probably not new

we don't know.

It has recovered now.

Coral lives in tropical fish tanks


Where can I get the money for this shit hole?
11-07-2018 03:25
RenaissanceMan
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(38)
Into the Night wrote:

Colder water reduces the CO2 concentration and the resulting carbonic acid concentration.



No, you got it backwards. CO2 dissolves more readily in cold water as compared to warmer water. That's why it bubbles out of soda and beer as they warm up.

Of course the Church of Global Warming denies science (including chemistry), and mathematics. They always have.


I can't argue with that.
11-07-2018 18:16
Into the Night
★★★★★
(5343)
RenaissanceMan wrote:
Into the Night wrote:

Colder water reduces the CO2 concentration and the resulting carbonic acid concentration.



No, you got it backwards. CO2 dissolves more readily in cold water as compared to warmer water. That's why it bubbles out of soda and beer as they warm up.

Of course the Church of Global Warming denies science (including chemistry), and mathematics. They always have.


I can't argue with that.


True...unless the water freezes. Thanks for the correction.


The Parrot Killer




Join the debate CO2 is an acid--so, what's the problem?:

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